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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 20 43.48%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 17 36.96%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 4 8.70%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 6.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 2.17%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 2.17%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-06, 00:46   Link #81
Crontica
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When the tomogara travel from Guze to Earth are they unable to return or they can but refuse?
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Old 2012-02-06, 00:57   Link #82
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Soooo eating humans isn't evil?
As evil as eating any other food source....

which is why the Snake's plan removes this issue.

Humans benefit, so do Tomogara, so do Flame Hazes
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Old 2012-02-06, 11:49   Link #83
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The relativism of morality is sometimes funny.

Anyway, aside from the levels in badass Yuji has consistently shown, the episode has revealed just how much he has learned about the conflict considering that he has been in the unique position to see the different angles of of this millenia-old conflict from the POVs of its major players. Now that he lies in its center, you really can't blame him for his desire to find an everybody wins happy ending for the inhabitants of all these worlds. Yes first and foremost he's doing it for Shana, but eventually this extends to everyone in this vicious cycle. He understands the cycle of violence that traps the Flame Hazes and the Tomogaras in eternal combat, and the tragedy of the humans who suffer and die in the middle of this war.
He himself admits that he hopes, and he dreams, and that his plan doesn't ground itself on any assurance of success. He believes in the ideal of course, and as he says so himself Shana isn't someone willing to bet everything on an abstract belief like he is.

So really, Yuji versus Shana is itself idealism versus realism. If Yuji is willing to bet everything on a dream, Shana would stick to something she can see right in front of her perhaps. It's inevitable that they would clash.

As for Yoshida, and I'm not saying this because I never really like her, but I'm going to need more exposition from her because right now I don't see where she's coming from in her decision to follow him and be a catalyst for the success of Yuji's plan. As it stands I only get a sense of blind obedience, so I'd like to see her thought process to at least make sense of her decision to follow him, even if doing so will also pit her against Shana and the Flame Hazes, making her a potential target.

Overall Yuji has pretty much become the most well developed and most justifiable character in the story. He lives in the gray area in the conflict, and unlike many other leads in other shows, manages to maintain his head held high and justify his actions. I do not consider him to be an extension of Bal Masque, which is why I cannot say that Bal Masque's existence is now based of on him. The show has exposed the shaky foundations to the formation of the Flame Hazes, but that doesn't necessarily make them any less than Bal Masque. From what I see before me, Yuji =/= Bal Masque.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:03   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
As evil as eating any other food source....
Right...I'll remember that the next time that I eat a steak or a piece of lettuce the energy coming from it will go into some rift that will cause further instability in the world...oh wait.

Quote:
which is why the Snake's plan removes this issue.

Humans benefit, so do Tomogara, so do Flame Hazes
Uh no it doesn't. Only for the short term. Not for the long term. Instead of having two planets it'll be three and if the Denizens greed get the better of them in the 3rd world Earth will still be affected.

If there was a way to simply isolate the 3rd world then there wouldn't be an issue.

That is what they are conflicting on.

Quote:
From what I see before me, Yuji =/= Bal Masque.
Technically speaking he's only doing it for Shana which is what he's always been trying to do since day 1 of this series. The rest is just secondary.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:26   Link #85
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These discussions about the justifications of each character's ideals really is exciting to read~

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
As for Yoshida, and I'm not saying this because I never really like her, but I'm going to need more exposition from her because right now I don't see where she's coming from in her decision to follow him and be a catalyst for the success of Yuji's plan. As it stands I only get a sense of blind obedience, so I'd like to see her thought process to at least make sense of her decision to follow him, even if doing so will also pit her against Shana and the Flame Hazes, making her a potential target.
Yoshida has always been the "Person standing in the background" multiple times. Was even surprised just how much Yuji has done in the past few days, while she casually went around doing things. Feeling completely left out of the fight, and after hearing Yuji's ideals and justifications for his actions. I assume that she believes this is the best course of action to take. Especially knowing that Yuji needs her, which allows her to step up from her previous role. She practically heard "one-side" of the story, and believes this is the best choice.

Or so I believe~
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:39   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
These discussions about the justifications of each character's ideals really is exciting to read~



Yoshida has always been the "Person standing in the background" multiple times. Was even surprised just how much Yuji has done in the past few days, while she casually went around doing things. Feeling completely left out of the fight, and after hearing Yuji's ideals and justifications for his actions. I assume that she believes this is the best course of action to take. Especially knowing that Yuji needs her, which allows her to step up from her previous role. She practically heard "one-side" of the story, and believes this is the best choice.

Or so I believe~
Eh but unlike Shana, she doesn't see as much of a complete picture as Shana does. What she has is bits and pieces from what they get from Satou, which is really more of on the Flame Haze POV. I doubt she has enough information to go on to understand what Yuji is doing aside from an obligate trust in whatever he is doing.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:46   Link #87
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Maybe Yoshida is still attached to Yuji? Which leads to what you said about blind obedience? But still, I believe that after hearing Yuji's thought process. While also fully understanding what happened Yuji the day Shana was beat up. I would believe she chose this out of the opportunity to help a friend in this war.
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Old 2012-02-06, 13:58   Link #88
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Personally I don't think she's in the light of the gravity of the situation, given how she's personally witnessed the atrocities done by some Tomogara in their city. It's much too easy and spur of the moment for her to just follow him around like a dog on a leash just because he says it's the best way. At least Shana got an more of explanation before deciding she'd rather not have anything to do with the Snake's plan. On the other hand, Yoshida and Keita get a farewell exposition. Neither of them even questioned him on his decision and decided of implicitly trust him that he's doing the right thing and that he won't let any harm come to the people. While everyone, his friends/acquaintances and viewers included, know that he is a trustworthy and honorable person, something of this magnitude at least requires more investigation and questioning even if you place a lot of trust in the man's intentions. No matter how good he is, this a world changing event, and it would be dumb not to try to cover your bases and your own ass.
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Old 2012-02-06, 14:02   Link #89
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I think Kazumi trusts Yuji pretty much to a fault. She probably thinks that he has his reasons for doing what ever it is he does or plans and that she shouldn't question them. Plus, she has been standing on the sidelines for the past two seasons. But, given how she decided that she'd still be a part of the war, Yuji gives her time to shine, so she steps up to the plate and hopes that she'll prove to be useful.

I personally think they're after the power of the Treasure Tool that she wields (the one she got from Pheles), but we'll see what this leads to.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:43   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
This is "that" discussion all over again. Is it inherently evil if what they are doing is essential for their survival?
It's never been my impression that it's essential for their survival. Perhaps it's essential for them to exist in corporeal form on Earth, but not to continue their existence period.

And even if it is essential for their survival, that defense grows weaker and weaker the longer any one tomogara uses it. If tomogara had a normal lifespan then your argument might have considerable weight to it, but as is, they're essentially immortal parasites feeding upon the host planet Earth.

Any way you slice it, they're not terribly defensible, at least at a moral level.

Keep in mind that I don't recall ever seeing a tomogara even express some guilt over what they do (The Corpse Collector is an exception here because he essentially feeds on "leftovers", harming nobody). I can't recall, off-hand, seeing any express remorse for the humans they consume. It would be a bit different if they were like the vampire Morbius (of Spiderman fame), who at times expressed great remorse over the victims he fed on in order to continue living. Morbius also once made a point to exclusively target criminals (rapists, murderers, etc...) to feed his need for human blood, and I can't recall a tomogara who even went for a pragmatic Raito Yagami route.


The first two seasons of Shana really didn't do much to cast the tomogara in a particularly sympathetic light, imo. Season 3 has made things a bit more complex, but amidst all the warfare between Flame Hazes and tomogaras this season, I don't think we should forget how one of these groups consume human beings while the other one doesn't. For that reason alone, I'm prepared to cut the Flame Haze side a bit of extra slack.
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:31   Link #91
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Do you feel remorse for eating a cow? pig? chicken? I know I don't :3

In fact, I revel in it.
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Old 2012-02-06, 16:36   Link #92
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Spoiler:


The Denizens doesn't have to be evil for us to have a reason to exterminate them. We exterminate pests, man-eating tigers or bears or wolves, etc all the time, because it's essential for our survival. Even if the Denizens are all a bunch good natured vegetarians who're only forced to eat humans to live, the flame hazes will still massacre the lot, and for good reason too.

As things are, I still cannot (and might never will) put a clear dichotomy of good and evil with The flame hazes, humans, and denizens. However I am by no means side with the Denizens. They are threatening humanity and the world as a whole simply by existing, whether they are good or evil doesn't matter. They must be wiped out, all of them, down to their last women and children.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
It's never been my impression that it's essential for their survival. Perhaps it's essential for them to exist in corporeal form on Earth, but not to continue their existence period.

And even if it is essential for their survival, that defense grows weaker and weaker the longer any one tomogara uses it. If tomogara had a normal lifespan then your argument might have considerable weight to it, but as is, they're essentially immortal parasites feeding upon the host planet Earth.
As stated (though it might still be speculation), denizens constantly consume PoE to maintain their form in earth. And (this is speculation too, I guess) if they happen to run out of PoE while still in earth, then they will die, and not simply kicked back to Guze.

Ah, wait I just thought of something. If Denizens and Guze have PoE of their own, why don't they simply go back and forth between worlds? When in human world, they can do whatever they want until their PoE diminish, then return to Guze to recharge, then they can return to earth to enjoy life again. Pheles didn't simply return to Guze while waiting for Johann, why? Is there any explanation why Denizens don't simply return to Guze while they're in danger?
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Old 2012-02-06, 18:35   Link #93
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Yuji's biggest mistake at the moment is that he's underestimating Shana. She has changed since he left her. She became honest with herself and became 'complete'. She's not just a flame haze who fights for nothing but her mission anymore. She fights for her own beliefs now.

Yuji doesn't know about the pact Shana made with Alastor when she became a flame haze as well. If she doesn't agree with the mission to protect the balance, she won't do it. She always had her doubts about the never ending fights between flame haze and tomogara. No matter how much she loves everyone, no matter how much they love her, she won't do it if she doesn't like it.

At the end of episode 12 Shana even tells him that she wants to know what he has to do, what he needs to do and that she'll find something that can convince every flame haze. She wants to find a way as well. Yuji even thinks at this time 'I don't know this Shana'. Shen then asks him what his reason for changing the world is, but he doesn't answer.

If Yuji had told her everything, I think she might have understood. If he could convince her that he's only trying to make everyone happy, that both the humans and the tomogara would benefit from his plan, that the never ending battle between the flame haze and tomogara can be stopped and that the balance won't be in danger of breaking down, she might have agreed to help him since this would make the mission of the flame haze kind of unnecessary. And if she doesn't agree with this mission, if she thinks there's a better option, she won't do it. That's what she has decided after all.

They might have been able to think of something together this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
[spoiler] Ah, wait I just thought of something. If Denizens and Guze have PoE of their own, why don't they simply go back and forth between worlds? When in human world, they can do whatever they want until their PoE diminish, then return to Guze to recharge, then they can return to earth to enjoy life again. Pheles didn't simply return to Guze while waiting for Johann, why? Is there any explanation why Denizens don't simply return to Guze while they're in danger?
It's never been explained how tomogara got to our world from guze. So I guess it's impossible for us to know if they are able to go back. I think it's not possible for them to return though. The kings of guze having to contract flame haze all this time would make less sense that way. They'd just come to our world, kill the tomogara and return to guze right away if that would have been possible.
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Old 2012-02-06, 19:00   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Deathscyther View Post
It's never been explained how tomogara got to our world from guze. So I guess it's impossible for us to know if they are able to go back. I think it's not possible for them to return though. The kings of guze having to contract flame haze all this time would make less sense that way. They'd just come to our world, kill the tomogara and return to guze right away if that would have been possible.
I see, that makes sense.

So basically the Denizens must now continue to eat humans to live, disrupting balance in the process, because they're not able to go back to Guze, all the while being hunted by flame hazes. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it's their own damn fault for wanting a better life for themselves!

eh wait, wasn't Alastor summoned at least once already?
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Old 2012-02-06, 19:11   Link #95
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I see, that makes sense.

So basically the Denizens must now continue to eat humans to live, disrupting balance in the process, because they're not able to go back to Guze, all the while being hunted by flame hazes. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it's their own damn fault for wanting a better life for themselves!

eh wait, wasn't Alastor summoned at least once already?
Yeah, in a way it's kind of sad if you look at it that way. So I can understand Yuji wanting to help them as well.

Tenpa Jousai seems to be an exception to the rule. I guess this is the power of unrestricted spells. They make impossible things possible. Since Alastor is summoned from within the flame haze, using the PoE of the flame haze, he doesn't seem to have to cross between the worlds. I think it's more like teleportation. How he goes back though.....maybe he's teleported back after a short time?
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Old 2012-02-06, 22:20   Link #96
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Right...I'll remember that the next time that I eat a steak or a piece of lettuce the energy coming from it will go into some rift that will cause further instability in the world...oh wait.



Uh no it doesn't. Only for the short term. Not for the long term. Instead of having two planets it'll be three and if the Denizens greed get the better of them in the 3rd world Earth will still be affected.

If there was a way to simply isolate the 3rd world then there wouldn't be an issue.

That is what they are conflicting on.
And in eating that steak and lettuce, over the years the process has yielded vCJD and pesticide contamination among other things? But neither you or I care about that....

Which isn't confirmed...

In fact......

Let's simply say that unless you know the full details of the Snake's plan, don't be so hasty to jump to conclusions...After all, every fear about the Strain on the fabric of existence is from Centerhill and the highest Flame Hazes. And even then, their fear is formed on the basis that Tomogara will continue to eat humans

Greed? What greed? There's no need for eating humans at all in Xanadu...

Would you eat anything if you can just photosynthesize and the energy you get from that is so great you might as well be drinking directly from a star?
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Old 2012-02-06, 22:54   Link #97
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To me what captivated me most was Yuuji's visit to Tanaka and Kazumi in order to offer them proper explanations and his side of things concerning Xanadu's creation.

Furthermore, I feel relieved that Yuuji's still a part of himself, because he did not forget about all his friends in Misaki and properly explained his reasons to Kazumi and Tanaka, although Tanaka at first felt like punching him. Now, first of all, I do not believe that Yuuji's lying, he reassured Kazumi about that. Nevertheless, I feel he's too naive placing too much hope that Serpent of the Ritual will handle things once Xanadu is made; even Yuuji himself knew that he was uncertain what would come next after Xanadu's creation with all the Tomogara leaving for the better world.

Perhaps, this is one of many reasons why Flame Hazes and Tomogara can never mingle: It's sort of a confrontation between Rationality, Vengeance, or Special Circumstances against Base Urges, Desires.
Yuuji wholeheartedly knows from experience that Shana judges to seek the most rational and efficient explanations with 0% degree of either ambiguity and uncertainty; measurable decisions that can come up with a course of action that leads to a certain and expected goal.
Hence, putting your bets based on mere desires that Xanadu would work for the Tomogara is just unacceptable for both Shana and the rest of the FH, because it leaves too much for ambiguity and uncertainty where it's impossible to implement a measure of control.

Let us say now that the Interbellum has finished, and next week the start of the war for Xanadu will begin bringing forth the very last story arc that finishes this saga forever.

Whichever side wins at the end will mean that side is always right from the start.
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Old 2012-02-06, 23:02   Link #98
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Whichever side wins at the end will mean that side is always right from the start.
And it will be a start that has been millenia since...
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Old 2012-02-07, 00:39   Link #99
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Tenpa Jousai seems to be an exception to the rule. I guess this is the power of unrestricted spells. They make impossible things possible. Since Alastor is summoned from within the flame haze, using the PoE of the flame haze, he doesn't seem to have to cross between the worlds. I think it's more like teleportation. How he goes back though.....maybe he's teleported back after a short time?
I thought it was the flame haze takes in the existence of the Lord of Guze, kindof like a posession. Margery summoned Marcosias while fighting Shana, for example, with the whole "Filling a Goblet" metaphor. It's a matter of the strength of the flame haze and the power of the Lord as to whether the flame haze can survive the ordeal.

I figured they just 'let go' to go back after they've done their thing.
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Old 2012-02-07, 03:32   Link #100
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I thought it was the flame haze takes in the existence of the Lord of Guze, kindof like a posession. Margery summoned Marcosias while fighting Shana, for example, with the whole "Filling a Goblet" metaphor. It's a matter of the strength of the flame haze and the power of the Lord as to whether the flame haze can survive the ordeal.

I figured they just 'let go' to go back after they've done their thing.
Yeah, I guess you explained it a bit better than I did. The Lord of Guze puts his own existence (or at least a part of it) inside the container of the flame haze. So in a way they are already in our world and don't have to cross over anymore.

I think the Lords only put a part of their existence to the flame haze though, so that even when the flame haze dies, the Lord will live on in Guze. The bigger the container, the more of their existence they can put in and the stronger the flame haze will be able to become. Alastor even said that Shana is able to take in his whole existence and that she is a 'great one' because of it, so this is probably very rare.

The Lords probably use some kind of unrestricted spell using their own PoE and the PoE of the flame haze in our world to perform these feats.
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