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Old 2012-02-06, 14:45   Link #2381
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
.. as well as Mexicans who also are jumping through all the hoops to do it the legal way.

Personally, I think a large part of the problem is our insane "right way to become a citizen" process. Way too many very worthy potential assets are left in limbo for years while the obnoxious and stupid immigration officials fuck things up, lose things, etc. ICE is one of my top 3 list of agencies that simply should be burned to the ground and recreated from scratch.
I thought ICE officials are supposed to smuggle arms into Mexico as their main function, and checkpoint enforcement is a secondary duty.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:05   Link #2382
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The illegal immigration issue didn't begin when the drug cartels rose to prominence. It has been going on for a while now. If anything, estimates indicate that the illegal immigration slowed and has even reversed with the economic downturn. Mexico isn;t and wasn't a prosperous nation, it's true, but what are we supposed to do about it? Part of Mexico's problem is a huge wealth gap between the rich and poor, and perhaps also unemployment. That's where we in America are currently headed. How are we supposed to be solving their problems? Also, as one who shares the mindset that America should stop fussing with the rest of the world and focus more on itself, I'll admit to feeling resentful over the idea that we should have to solve our neighbor's issues.
This is true, but it's not like Mexico is getting any more attractive a country to live. With the drug wars only continuing, no mexican in their right mind is going to want to stay, or more importantly, go back home.

I'm saying this in the context of the whole "self deportation" policy that states like Alabama and Arizona are trying. No Mexican is going to want to self deport to a mexico that is still embroiled in poverty. Remember, over half of mexicans are living in poverty, while only 14% of Americans are.

The United States and Mexico are two huge countries that border one another, it's foolish to think that what goes on in one, does not affect the other. Both countries are linked together, just like Ireland is linked to Britain, or France to Spain. It's in the United States interest to ensure Mexico is a prosperous and functioning country, and too many US governments up until now have been utterly disinterested in what goes on south of the border.

The problem they should be fixing isn't illegal immigration from Mexico, the problem is Mexico itself.

There needs to be a closer working relationship between the two countries, much like what you see between close neighbours in Europe. Barrack Obama needs to regularly meet up Felipe Calderón, more then he does with any other leader in fact. The Mexican-American relationship needs to be the key economic relationship that the US fosters.

That's not to say there isn't room for actual policy reform, the US should legalise the entire farm labour market. Create a legal framework for Mexicans to come on seasonal work permits to the United States, earn a decent (but still sub-minimum) wage, and provide incentives for Mexicans to not overstay their visa and work through the system. And crack down on all farm owners who do not work through this new system. Farmers will have to deal with slightly higher costs, but they'll still be getting their cheap sub-minimum wage seasonal labour. Albeit it will be regulated.

Mexican labour has fuelled farms in the South west of the United States for over a century, and it's relationship that benefits both mexicans and the american farmer, no need to completely destroy it, and there's no need for it be carried out in an illegal manner.
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Old 2012-02-06, 15:26   Link #2383
Ithekro
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One of the groups that is upset the most by illegal Mexican immigration are Mexican-Americans and naturalized citizens from Mexico. The ones that went though the hoops, or their families adapted years ago to living as Americans. To them the illegals give them a bad name by association and sterotyping.

Another supposed economic problem is where the money goes and if it is taxed. Those that come and live permenately tend to get taxed on some fashion eventually, if they aren't working entirely for under the table income, and the State doesn't have some other form of tax that get some of that money into the government (fees, sales taxes or whatever). It is the other group that seems to worry economic minded peoples. Those that come to work seasonally, or those that have most of their family still in their country of origin. Most of the money goes back to their country of origin, and if it is low income "under the table" style pay...this money is never taxed, nor does it flow back into the American ecomony. Whatever work they did generally does effect the economy in some way even though their paycheck does not.

A lot of the complaints about illegal immigration are socio-economic based rather than ethnic based. However there are also sthnic based complaints. Usually pointed at those that are not adapting to their new home, but instead crafting an area into where they left...culturally. How many cities and towns have Little Mexicos now? Sort of like Little Italy and Japantown in some major cities. But instead of it being logically in a major trading port where you would have a transition area from being one culture to becoming the other, it is spread thoughout the entire American Southwest and inching beyond that region. Yes I a well aware that this region was under Spanish and later Mexican rule and very well aware of the Mexican-American War and the Texan War of Independance that took most of those lands way from Mexico. But apparently it has only been the last few generations that seem to have stopped adapting (outside just the migrant workers that have been around since agricuture was big in the State...they had issues with the Midwest farmers that moved here in the 1930s competeing with migrant workers) and started seemingly demanding. More and more area seem to be Hispanic. And not just because people live there, but the areas they live are stating to decline and resemble Mexican towns in style, language, foods, everything. It is like you drive from one part of town and it is relatively clean Western style town, and then you get to the other part of town and it is like you just drove into a communal town in Sonora or Sinaloa. At least that is what it has started to look like in California since the 1980s. It is different, and that is not bad. What is bad is the state of disrepair those areas tend to have, and the seeming unwillingness to adapt to the place one now lives as a permanent resident.

That might be all smoke and mirrors, or just a lot of migrates rather that premantent residents, but that is hard to tell.
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Old 2012-02-07, 03:52   Link #2384
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neo-GOPers whining and raging because their own "icons" are starting to bail and call them out... well, not exactly like that but Clint Eastwood certainly delivered a subtle punch at them. I suppose I could make a list of the "getting pretty long" list of old smart conservatives saying "wtf?" at the neo-GOP to put it bluntly...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/us...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 2012-02-07, 04:27   Link #2385
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
neo-GOPers whining and raging because their own "icons" are starting to bail and call them out... well, not exactly like that but Clint Eastwood certainly delivered a subtle punch at them. I suppose I could make a list of the "getting pretty long" list of old smart conservatives saying "wtf?" at the neo-GOP to put it bluntly...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/us...er=rss&emc=rss
Chrysler spokesman Eastwood was critic of auto bailout
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8D70N220120207
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Old 2012-02-07, 04:50   Link #2386
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
A lot of the complaints about illegal immigration are socio-economic based rather than ethnic based. However there are also sthnic based complaints. Usually pointed at those that are not adapting to their new home, but instead crafting an area into where they left...culturally. How many cities and towns have Little Mexicos now? Sort of like Little Italy and Japantown in some major cities. But instead of it being logically in a major trading port where you would have a transition area from being one culture to becoming the other, it is spread thoughout the entire American Southwest and inching beyond that region. Yes I a well aware that this region was under Spanish and later Mexican rule and very well aware of the Mexican-American War and the Texan War of Independance that took most of those lands way from Mexico. But apparently it has only been the last few generations that seem to have stopped adapting (outside just the migrant workers that have been around since agricuture was big in the State...they had issues with the Midwest farmers that moved here in the 1930s competeing with migrant workers) and started seemingly demanding. More and more area seem to be Hispanic. And not just because people live there, but the areas they live are stating to decline and resemble Mexican towns in style, language, foods, everything. It is like you drive from one part of town and it is relatively clean Western style town, and then you get to the other part of town and it is like you just drove into a communal town in Sonora or Sinaloa. At least that is what it has started to look like in California since the 1980s. It is different, and that is not bad. What is bad is the state of disrepair those areas tend to have, and the seeming unwillingness to adapt to the place one now lives as a permanent resident.

That might be all smoke and mirrors, or just a lot of migrates rather that premantent residents, but that is hard to tell.
If you've ever been expat for a while, you'd understand why they do that. People like carving out a little space that feels like home, and if a lot of your fellow countrymen are around, you feel safer and more comfortable living with them, particularly if the locals discriminate against you. I don't know of a single group that doesn't behave this way.

And the worst of them is actually english speaking Expats. It's disturbingly common to meet english speaking expats living abroad who have made no effort to even learn the language, not even a few phrases.

At least most of the Mexicans (particularly the young ones) end out learning English. While the parents may have poor english, it's rare to meet a second generation Hispanic, born in the US, who doesn't speak english. So they are integrating. It's a slow process.

As for the state of disrepair in those areas, that's probably as much the government's fault as anyone else. Immigrants are quite frequently ignored and marginalized.
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Old 2012-02-07, 19:36   Link #2387
ganbaru
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Obama risks Catholic vote with birth-control mandate
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8161ZT20120207
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Old 2012-02-07, 19:42   Link #2388
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Obama risks Catholic vote with birth-control mandate
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8161ZT20120207
Welllllllll, lets just say rank-and-file Catholics have a very different attitude in practice than the clergy and the hyper-conservative Catholic activists have. I really doubt he's risking that many votes.

I see this insurance dilemma as yet another reason that *employers* should be completely removed from the health insurance equation. Let employees join associations, co-ops, guilds, unions, etc that provide health care. Let the insurance companies get used to making a somewhat smaller profit -- even better, require all insurance companies be non-profit (like they USED to be before the "fix" was put in).
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Old 2012-02-07, 19:47   Link #2389
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Welllllllll, lets just say rank-and-file Catholics have a very different attitude in practice than the clergy and the hyper-conservative Catholic activists have. I really doubt he's risking that many votes.

I see this insurance dilemma as yet another reason that *employers* should be completely removed from the health insurance equation. Let employees join associations, co-ops, guilds, unions, etc that provide health care. Let the insurance companies get used to making a somewhat smaller profit -- even better, require all insurance companies be non-profit (like they USED to be before the "fix" was put in).
Heh, you should travel to Ireland some time...

Though, it's not as bad as it used to be. That said, Abortion is still illegal. At least you don't need a prescription for contraception anymore though...

And the people of Ireland? They were all in favour of it.

I'd say there's a fair whack of american catholics who are similiar.
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Old 2012-02-07, 20:44   Link #2390
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Obama risks Catholic vote with birth-control mandate
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8161ZT20120207
Yeahhh, about that...

If those polls are accurate, he's not losing many votes.
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Old 2012-02-08, 05:24   Link #2391
ganbaru
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Three-state sweep revives Santorum's White House hopes
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80Q2AQ20120208
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Old 2012-02-08, 05:32   Link #2392
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I'm sorry to jump in with something irrelevant to the most current posts, I feel like every thread is soooo huge, there's sooo much already going on, it's hard for me to jump into the conversations where they are. I just saw this thread and wanted to ask, who all is supporting Ron Paul like me? I think he would be the best president we've had in a long time, I'm certainly concerned about his lax foreign policy, but I'll let that slide when EVERYTHING else he says is just EXACTLY what I want to hear our potential leader say. Sadly I don't think he has a chance of winning, but I'm really hoping I'm proven wrong. Does anyone else like him like I do?
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Old 2012-02-08, 05:38   Link #2393
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Welllllllll, lets just say rank-and-file Catholics have a very different attitude in practice than the clergy and the hyper-conservative Catholic activists have. I really doubt he's risking that many votes.

I see this insurance dilemma as yet another reason that *employers* should be completely removed from the health insurance equation. Let employees join associations, co-ops, guilds, unions, etc that provide health care. Let the insurance companies get used to making a somewhat smaller profit -- even better, require all insurance companies be non-profit (like they USED to be before the "fix" was put in).
Insurance companies can't be non-profit because that is where all the insured monies come from.

The solution is to have a good act that requires insurance companies to act in utmost good faith of their clients, inclusive of a 90:10 rule of payouts where they are required to share 90% of their profits as bonuses and keep only 10% to themselves, as well as separate funds for different insurance types (for-profit, non-profit, ILP, health insurance, TLI, etc).

Of course, keep the premium cost high for drug addicts and smokers.
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Old 2012-02-08, 11:59   Link #2394
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Originally Posted by symphonious7 View Post
I'm sorry to jump in with something irrelevant to the most current posts, I feel like every thread is soooo huge, there's sooo much already going on, it's hard for me to jump into the conversations where they are.
In regards to the 2012 Election thread, I have already decided to split the thread once the Primaries have ended, so that a new thread can refocus on the 2-3 candidates actually running for Presidency. (I might rename this thread US Primaries 2012, or simply call the new thread US Elections 2012 Take 2 (or something to that effect).)

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Does anyone else like him like I do?
I doubt I like Paul like you do, but I do like Ron Paul. Huntsman was my top choice, but since he is gone, and I doubt he will be chosen by anyone as a vice-presidential candidate (maybe Obama will choose Huntsman ), Paul is the onyl one left I have any liking for.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-02-08 at 13:54.
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Old 2012-02-08, 12:03   Link #2395
symphonious7
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In regards to the 2012 Election thread, I have already decided to split the thread once the Primaries have ended, so that a new thread can refocus on the 2-3 candidates actually running for Presidancy. (I might rename this thread US Primaries 2012, or simply call the new thread US Elections 2012 Take 2 (or something to that effect).)




I doubt I like Paul like you do, but I do like Ron Paul. Huntsman was my top choice, but since he is gone, and I doubt he will be chosen by anyone as a vice-presidential candidate (maybe Obama will choose Huntsman ), Paul is the onyl one left I have any liking for.
I'm also a fan of Rick Santorum, I like Newt's ideas, but I think he's totally being a cranky old man in his interviews and debates which turns me off immensely. I just repeatedly see Ron Paul say things I'm just like "AMEN!!" to. But we'll see... And yeah that will be good when we find out who it boils down to.
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Old 2012-02-08, 12:09   Link #2396
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Originally Posted by symphonious7 View Post
I'm also a fan of Rick Santorum, I like Newt's ideas, but I think he's totally being a cranky old man in his interviews and debates which turns me off immensely. I just repeatedly see Ron Paul say things I'm just like "AMEN!!" to. But we'll see... And yeah that will be good when we find out who it boils down to.
I'm just curious, but how can you like Ron Paul and Rick Santorum? The two aren't complete opposites, but their views on the government and personal freedom are quite different.

(I'll also put it out there that I do not like Rick Santorum. He is the closest thing that America has to a religious extremist, and having watched how he handles himself at small stump gatherings, I think he's a real jerk.)
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Old 2012-02-08, 12:15   Link #2397
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I'm just curious, but how can you like Ron Paul and Rick Santorum? The two aren't complete opposites, but their views on the government and personal freedom are quite different.

(I'll also put it out there that I do not like Rick Santorum. He is the closest thing that America has to a religious extremist, and having watched how he handles himself at small stump gatherings, I think he's a real jerk.)
As far as I can tell they both want smaller government, less intrusion, and more incentives for people to work instead of collect welfare. Those are my deepest core values, and I'm just looking for a candidate that shares them. Other issues don't matter to me as much as just believing they're going to get the government out of the private sector.

And no I'm not for chrony capitalism, I think there should be SOME regulations on monopolies, but the main issue is the government being in cahoots with businesses for me, not so much what the businesses can do on their own.

If I'm confused, or not aware of certain things Rick has said that would contradict this, or is another issue I haven't thought of, feel free to enlighten me, I'd like to be as informed as possible.
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Old 2012-02-08, 12:38   Link #2398
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While this is clearly a charged piece against Santorum, if you have ten minutes, you might want to watch this:



Rick Santorum is definitely not for less government intrusion, and based on his record, he isn't against a smaller government, either. He may claim that he is at this point, because it's a point that stokes public favor, but his actions speak differently.

I also greatly dislike his seeming willingness to put the Bible before the Constitution. That is very dangerous.
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Old 2012-02-08, 13:33   Link #2399
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I'm sorry to jump in with something irrelevant to the most current posts, I feel like every thread is soooo huge, there's sooo much already going on, it's hard for me to jump into the conversations where they are. I just saw this thread and wanted to ask, who all is supporting Ron Paul like me? I think he would be the best president we've had in a long time, I'm certainly concerned about his lax foreign policy, but I'll let that slide when EVERYTHING else he says is just EXACTLY what I want to hear our potential leader say. Sadly I don't think he has a chance of winning, but I'm really hoping I'm proven wrong. Does anyone else like him like I do?
He is interesting from an academic standpoint.

But he is WAYYYYYYY too against the military industrial complex to EVER be a candidate in todays environment.

Plus I think people need to stop putting so much faith in our chief executives, they only are as effective as the Congress they work with. Sure he SAYS every thing you want to hear, that doesn't mean he will do it.

To expect MOST of what he (or any president) says I think is plain unrealistic in the system this country chose.

As for my own beliefs,

I like how he is trying to scale back our military exploits overseas, but then again it's not realistic.

And again "Less gov'ment, less intrusion" to me has come off as more an argument from the heart and less the mind frankly, we have some of the least generous welfare programs of the 1st world.

Seeing as how you can barely live on this countries welfare, I really am leery of anyone saying they want to gash it. That really won't solve many problems except make a few dents in spending levels. It's not like we are living in Greece or Spain.

As with anything there can be reform. The welfare to work option seems to have gotten some people off the docket.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...rm-cover_x.htm

Trouble is though, not every place is willing to train you and low cost options (such as community colleges) are strapped. It is true that there are some people who game the system, but you cannot gash welfare just to get after what is not likely even a MAJORITY of welfare recipients. With out SMART welfare and aid programs to help people up you just create an entrenched class stratification.

I am for constantly UPDATING and REFORMATING the welfare system, not gashing it.

Last edited by solomon; 2012-02-08 at 13:59.
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Old 2012-02-08, 13:40   Link #2400
symphonious7
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Hmmm..... I'm beginning to think that I shouldn't be forming opinions based on the GOP debates, that's pretty much how I form my opinion. Seems like you guys have done deeper research and are more aware of the truth of the situation than I am. Interesting thread!
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