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Old 2012-02-08, 22:00   Link #1141
mayumi
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some of the good fights at the end of first TV series were of the girls, especially when rena joins reika, tsugumi with the barrier etc. in this series i just hope to zessica be the head element first before mikono. i know zessica probably won't win so love war but i do want her to own in the mecha war.
as far as i am concerned mikono can stay elementless. her power can just be her connection to aquarion.
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:06   Link #1142
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayumi View Post
some of the good fights at the end of first TV series were of the girls, especially when rena joins reika, tsugumi with the barrier etc. in this series i just hope to zessica be the head element first before mikono. i know zessica probably won't win so love war but i do want her to own in the mecha war.
as far as i am concerned mikono can stay elementless. her power can just be her connection to aquarion.
Well obviously you're thinking from the basis of AmataxZessica, no offense.

Whether Mikono wins the love war or not, it'll be a great twist to see her become a powerful pilot and go on a demolition derby. And that doesn't mean Zessica can't be a great pilot, which I'm sure we can all agree will happen either way. (she is a primary head for the Type-F like Cayenne is for the Type-M after all) In fact, both will make great setup for an end-of-series Amata/Mikono/Zessica Sousei Gattai to save the world.

And speaking of Amata/Mikono/Zessica Sousei Gattai; c'mon Kawamori, make it happen. We all want it, and sometime earlier than the end of the series.
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:12   Link #1143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post

And speaking of Amata/Mikono/Zessica Sousei Gattai; c'mon Kawamori, make it happen. We all want it, and sometime earlier than the end of the series.
They would have to, I mean- It's the only one shown in the OP
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:13   Link #1144
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
They would have to, I mean- It's the only one shown in the OP
Is it though? Going by that OP, a book got caught up in their... gattai as well. I saw some triangles floating around too...

I'm all for Amata/Zessica/Mikono/Book! But first they need to introduce this elusive book character... I'm very thrilled to meet it. (And its even got a spot in the ED! It must be important!)
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:16   Link #1145
mayumi
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Well obviously you're thinking from the basis of AmataxZessica, no offense.
not really i am more kagura x zessica fan

i think zessica kicks ass and so she should get more screen time to kick ass. i loved her piloting this episode to escape kagura. she kept kagura in the "ever failing to get his way" department until he got distracted.
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:19   Link #1146
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Originally Posted by mayumi View Post
not really i am more kagura x zessica fan
Close enough.

Quote:
i think zessica kicks ass and so she should get more screen time to kick ass. i loved her piloting this episode to escape kagura. she kept kagura in the "ever failing to get his way" department.
Well don't worry, I doubt many of us here have any doubt that she's going to be getting piloting spotlight, and probably plenty of it.

It's Mikono that'll make for an unexpected badass pilot, and that's a good chunk of the reason why I'm rooting for it.
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:30   Link #1147
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I'm still hoping for hotblood dose coming from HanaKanaZessica
I think we'll get it from episode 8, from the untranslatedsummary posted days ago :3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Almost no mecha series that's popular or takes itself seriously puts a female as any form of good pilot; the only real ground-shattering female pilot ever, in terms of plot, character, or even just skill
Noriko and Kazumi from Gunbuster/Top wo Nerae?
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Old 2012-02-08, 22:34   Link #1148
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
Noriko and Kazumi from Gunbuster/Top wo Nerae?
That's a good point, but a) it's an oldie and you never see anything like it anymore, hence the "almost" that I used, and b) a surprisingly large number of people view it as its own mecha parody rather than a serious mecha series. (one example they use is a dolphin for an operator in the final episode) I love Gunbuster and the inferno duo, but it's a rare gem that unfortunately doesn't really boost the average comparitively due to the lack of simple numbers of hot-blooded female mecha pilots, and especially in coparison to the number of female mecha pilots in the big-name series-es like Gundam that are near- or complete jokes.

Most certainly, it doesn't help that its sequel definitely doesn't really take itself seriously.
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Old 2012-02-08, 23:44   Link #1149
LoveMeKags
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
(though for the record, I'm AmataxMikono all the way and, at least Kawamori didn't troll the shippers in Macross Zero and Frontier)
News flash: Kawamori did troll the shippers in Frontier. The unresolved triangle was partly his idea along with members of the staff. Now, if you had specified between the series or movies, the movie definitely holds your words. However, the series does not.

As for Zero... no comment.

Quote:
Almost no mecha series that's popular or takes itself seriously puts a female as any form of good pilot;
Okay, so you've ruled out Milia from the original Macross and even in 7 and say she was a bad pilot? I disagree. She was one of the best. Albeit, not the main character, but there has never been a main female character that has been a good pilot, otherwise, there wouldn't be a plot. Even Mylene wasn't a good pilot but a talented one at least. But Klan holds my theory because her piloting Michael's Valkyrie in Frontier showed how good they are.

You actually stereotyped all females in mecha anime as being bad pilots. A lot of female characters in mecha anime are good pilots. Albeit, without some experience, they aren't good in the beginning. However, Zessica throws your theory out the window. She shows some talent.

Don't make assumptions like that. There are a lot of good female pilots. You just have to watch them.

Quote:
Even in the original Aquarion Kawamori shafted the strong-willed Sylvia, turning her into the damsel in distress while ze boyz hogged all the piloting spotlight.
He didn't shaft her. If anything, she became a point of interest. And considering she was from the beginning of the series, by that point in the story, she was the main character of interest. Her tie to the tree of life was what made her a point of interest. Had she not been removed from being a pilot, the series wouldn't have had a nice conclusion.
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Old 2012-02-09, 03:37   Link #1150
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Even in the original Aquarion Kawamori shafted the strong-willed Sylvia, turning her into the damsel in distress while ze boyz hogged all the piloting spotlight.
It is normal for heroines in mecha to get kidnapped in the final episodes and then saved by the hero during the final battle. The rescuing is proof that the hero loved her. You have to look at things from the point of view of the main character
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Old 2012-02-09, 04:00   Link #1151
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@Shinji103--Apollo got the spotlight because he was the main character, main protagonist and the "hero"...he was all three. So that's why Silvia took a backseat to him. But Silvia kicked major ass all throughout the OS and it is she who made Sirius and Touma see the error of their ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Amata and Mikono were litterally about to become in love before Kagura cock blocked it according to that machine and week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse, people fall in love in practically a day in these sorts of stories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
They addressed that in episode 5 - Mikono wondered why she feels so close to Amata despite having just met him. IIRC both she and Amata said they feel they've known each other for a long time, and Amata said their meeting was destiny.
This is reply to both of you---
I am not Kawamori, nor am I Okada. I didn't see the script, I wasn't there in the "planning stages", so I am not going to presume to know what's going on --I don't. It's an assumption on my part based on what I saw. So this is not a shipping war, but we're discussing whom we believe will get together and our reasons for preferring it. What I do know is this--- your premise is flawed (I am saying this to both of you)
I wonder if you both realize that you're arguing both sides of the fence. Do you?
You're both arguing that Mikono has not known Kagura long enough for her to like him. So he really didn't do much to spark an interest, because they barely know each other, and she just met him
but the same time...You're both saying that characters can fall in love after knowing each other at least a day, or at the most a week.

Kuro-chan (can I call you that?) You said more than once---I might add "(Paraphrasing here)
  • "Amata said it was destiny the first time they met"
You also said something along the lines of
  • "Mikono also said she felt like she knew him or comfortable--or something like that, although they just met"
Yet...
  1. Kagura smelling her and declaring her "his" in the first episode--means nothing (it's the same as Amata's "destiny" line)
  2. Mikono's saying that she could tell he was worried about her, and felt like she felt that from him before--isn't too deep. Ah she saw him in the vision, so it's nothing deep.

Because Kagura declared her his BEFORE Amata said that destiny line...

So I have to ask you both you don't see the contradiction there? You can't have it both ways. Either one day-or one week, or one meeting, isn't enough time to form a tendre for someone, or it is enough time. because " week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse, people fall in love in practically a day in these sorts of stories"

Tenchi-kun (are you a guy or girl? Can I call you that)--can I give you a tip? You cannot say things like "according to that machine and week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse,"

Then do a 180 and say "Amata and Mikono were litterally about to become in love before Kagura cock blocked it"--because you got that from "the machine"..you know the one you said "doesn't mean jack shit"

Thus your argument is a failed one---because you say "that doesn't mean anything" when it comes to Kagura, and then you both turn around use the same shit you just told me, it doesn't count so it doesn't help my pairing--does count when it comes to your paring and only your paring. To hell with mines. Even if it's the same it doesn't count because the machine is only good for validating your ship not mine. .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Also the NTR crap comes from the fact the
Um what does NTR mean? ...I don't know. If I never ask, how will I know? Enlighten me please?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I mean seriously AMATA LEADS FRICKING AQUARION EVOL. THE NAME OF THE SHoW. Kagura is never going to drive that machine, at the very least not without Amata leading it.


You're killing me, you know that?

That's why he's the HERO.
  • Although a lead character can be Hero, Protagonist and Main character--it's not always so
  1. Amata is the HERO...He's the guy you want to see win
  2. Mikono is the Protagonist and Main character of EVOL. Not Amata---because it looks like she's Sylvie, she is the one who has to grow and change--and that makes her the main protagonist. It's about "Sylvie".
    in the OS. It was about Apollonius. They were searching for him. EVOL's plot isn't based on him, only Sylvie (that's why he's suspiciously absent except for ONE scene) That is why Miknono is also the main character EDIT: Mikono/Sylvie is the vehicle that drives the story. None of it would be possible without her. That's why she's both the main character and the main protagonist
  3. Kagura is the Villain protagonist--because it's safe to say, he will grow and change too. He's just on the bad side as of now. (Apollonious was once on the bad side too)
Please before you start arguing about what makes a "Main Character" how bout you do some research first. ...that's just a tip. I'm not trying to be insulting either. I am just bit brutal in my honesty. Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way. Don't get me wrong there are times when I am just a total bitch and I am calling you (not you personally) an idiot..but when it's a case like that, I don't beat around the bush..I just say it. This time I'm really not trying to insult your intelligence .... I could just tell that you don't know that..um.....they're not always the same character and I believe ignorance of something isn't really bad--it just means you don't know something because no one ever taught or told you whatever it is you're ignorant of...I swear to god,I am really not trying to be a smart ass. Misinformation is a pet peeve of mine ...






Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
She already said she was scared of him...



Fair enough.
She was scared when he grabbed her-because she's pretty much a wuss, but then she felt his concern. Why would she want to apologize to a guy that scared the beejeezubs out of her? It would mean that it had an "effect" on her and it's no longer fear--

Um, why is she conflicted? All of sudden, she's confused and feels something is "wrong". This is after Kagura declared her his. She was holding hands and did the mugen punch thing--so it can't be a battle..yet now she's conflicted

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
There's something called the suspension bridge effect. It's a mental effect that confuses the feeling of being scared with Love. mentally fear has similar effects to the body as love. They even explained that the bands they gave them measure heart rate, pulse, and body perspiration; not necessarily love. The bands can only interpret the body responses and to assume that what they are feeling is love but fear would generate a similar response.

That's likely why they first unlocked the bands when the attack started. It's bound to work up the body and get the heart and pulse beating quickly. which could cause the bands to go off at the worst times.



.
If that's the case why didn't the band go off, when he first grabbed her? She said herself she was SCARED--really scared. How come the band only shocked the hell out of her, after he embraced and then licked her?

Because every person who's band went off, did so because of romantic setting and feelings? otherwise known as ATTRACTION? You can say fear but like Tenchi-Kun said "The were practically in love" and how do we know this? The monitor told us so... Just like it also told us that Kagura set her body aflame because it shocked the hell out of her. According to the band, Kagura has a greater affect on her than Amata does. Also, Kagura and Amata, and Mikono were pretty much, introduced at the same time--give or take few minutes in the 1st half. So it's not boy meets girl. It's girl, met two boys--in the begining.


@ Iron-mike. Whipping boy? Don't you think that is a bit of an exaggeration?

Also if Kagura lost "All" his fights. It would mean he lost all his fights. Which he did not. He lost only two fights and that was to Aquarion--Solar Aquarion (EVOL) and if you're gonna say "he keeps losing to Amata lol" then I should point out that technically he only lost o Amata ONCE. In the Second half of the double episode. That is the only time he lost to Amata, since he was the the "Head"

The second time he lost to Shrade, who was the head of Aquarion Mars--whoops Aquarion Spada. In OS, Sirus and Peirre were the heads for that one. Serius because he was swordsman and Pierre because it allowed him to use his element power...

More than likely Aquarion Lunar--will be used by Mikono and Zessica, whenever they decide to show it. Because Silvia and Reika, for the most part used Luna when they were "the head"

I have to got bed, I have to get up in few hours so I didn't quote or answer everything I wanted to ---and I made this short and sweet--(short for me, I can be long-winded...er long fingered)

Oh yeah...watching him run around desperately tyring to find his woman---gaah I melted. I hope he gets her in the end (I am starting to think that he will, because Aquarion is the story of Apollo and Silva in all their incarnations and Kagura is Apollo) So I am going to wave my pom-pom's while Kusa and Dragon do handstands and flips...We'll be in the KaguraXMikono and AmataxZessica stands

Last edited by Lord of Pandemonium; 2012-02-09 at 04:24. Reason: added to it
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Old 2012-02-09, 04:16   Link #1152
LoveMeKags
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^ I agree with you on a lot of these things, LoP.

I too think there's still much growth to be had in all the characters. We haven't heard about all of their pasts yet. I mean, where are all the parents? I'm also still waiting to see more of Zessica.

As for love triangles:
Mikono/Amata/Zessica,
I think it's safe to say that Mikono has Amata's full attention right now. He seems more drawn to her personality. Unless the sub that I'm watching is wrong, he's also called her his "first love." The sad part of that is that there is no actual relationship yet. But we have seen so far that he is both attracted to Mikono and interested in getting to know her. So I'll say that we have a lead in that triangle so far that might change with the next few episodes. So far, Amata knows very little, if anything, about Zessica, though sexual attraction is a plus for now.
Amata/Mikono/Kagura,
I think the same words apply to Mikono: Amata has her full attention right now. She has an attraction to Kagura, I will admit; but the person who's she has interacted with most so far is Amata. She's formed a sort of bond with him. She also shows an attraction to Amata and gets jealous of Zessica hanging all over him. Her attraction to Kagura is fine, however, she knows nothing about him yet. She only has that vision to go by. So unless the next couple of episodes cause them to interact more, I doubt he'll have much of a chance.

We're only up to episode six. I won't say endgame is either, not specifically anyway. I still have doubts, after all, it is still early to say which one is endgame. But I do think that both triangles will reach their end by 15 at most, or at least the female one.
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Old 2012-02-09, 04:34   Link #1153
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
She was scared when he grabbed her-because she's pretty much a wuss, but then she felt his concern. Why would she want to apologize to a guy that scared the beejeezubs out of her? It would mean that it had an "effect" on her and it's no longer fear--
I'm pretty sure her fear is from a general feeling and not from a single action Call it some spiritual instincts from a past life if you will.


Secondly, her wish to apologize is not a conscious feeling, heck she doesn't even remember it after wards. Call it some spiritual instincts from a past life if you will.


Thirdly, you seem to be pushing very hard for this to be some hint of Kagura/Mikono when it's more like that scene in the movies where King Kong grabbing the woman and trying to runaway with her...You know, I've seen these symptoms before back in the old days of the Nanoha subforums...
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Old 2012-02-09, 05:35   Link #1154
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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
@Shinji103--Apollo got the spotlight because he was the main character, main protagonist and the "hero"...he was all three. So that's why Silvia took a backseat to him. But Silvia kicked major ass all throughout the OS and it is she who made Sirius and Touma see the error of their ways.








This is reply to both of you---
I am not Kawamori, nor am I Okada. I didn't see the script, I wasn't there in the "planning stages", so I am not going to presume to know what's going on --I don't. It's an assumption on my part based on what I saw. So this is not a shipping war, but we're discussing whom we believe will get together and our reasons for preferring it. What I do know is this--- your premise is flawed (I am saying this to both of you)
I wonder if you both realize that you're arguing both sides of the fence. Do you?
You're both arguing that Mikono has not known Kagura long enough for her to like him. So he really didn't do much to spark an interest, because they barely know each other, and she just met him
but the same time...You're both saying that characters can fall in love after knowing each other at least a day, or at the most a week.

Kuro-chan (can I call you that?) You said more than once---I might add "(Paraphrasing here)
  • "Amata said it was destiny the first time they met"
You also said something along the lines of
  • "Mikono also said she felt like she knew him or comfortable--or something like that, although they just met"
Yet...
  1. Kagura smelling her and declaring her "his" in the first episode--means nothing (it's the same as Amata's "destiny" line)
  2. Mikono's saying that she could tell he was worried about her, and felt like she felt that from him before--isn't too deep. Ah she saw him in the vision, so it's nothing deep.

Because Kagura declared her his BEFORE Amata said that destiny line...

So I have to ask you both you don't see the contradiction there? You can't have it both ways. Either one day-or one week, or one meeting, isn't enough time to form a tendre for someone, or it is enough time. because " week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse, people fall in love in practically a day in these sorts of stories"

Tenchi-kun (are you a guy or girl? Can I call you that)--can I give you a tip? You cannot say things like "according to that machine and week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse,"

Then do a 180 and say "Amata and Mikono were litterally about to become in love before Kagura cock blocked it"--because you got that from "the machine"..you know the one you said "doesn't mean jack shit"

Thus your argument is a failed one---because you say "that doesn't mean anything" when it comes to Kagura, and then you both turn around use the same shit you just told me, it doesn't count so it doesn't help my pairing--does count when it comes to your paring and only your paring. To hell with mines. Even if it's the same it doesn't count because the machine is only good for validating your ship not mine. .


Um what does NTR mean? ...I don't know. If I never ask, how will I know? Enlighten me please?




You're killing me, you know that?

That's why he's the HERO.
  • Although a lead character can be Hero, Protagonist and Main character--it's not always so
  1. Amata is the HERO...He's the guy you want to see win
  2. Mikono is the Protagonist and Main character of EVOL. Not Amata---because it looks like she's Sylvie, she is the one who has to grow and change--and that makes her the main protagonist. It's about "Sylvie".
    in the OS. It was about Apollonius. They were searching for him. EVOL's plot isn't based on him, only Sylvie (that's why he's suspiciously absent except for ONE scene) That is why Miknono is also the main character EDIT: Mikono/Sylvie is the vehicle that drives the story. None of it would be possible without her. That's why she's both the main character and the main protagonist
  3. Kagura is the Villain protagonist--because it's safe to say, he will grow and change too. He's just on the bad side as of now. (Apollonious was once on the bad side too)
Please before you start arguing about what makes a "Main Character" how bout you do some research first. ...that's just a tip. I'm not trying to be insulting either. I am just bit brutal in my honesty. Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way. Don't get me wrong there are times when I am just a total bitch and I am calling you (not you personally) an idiot..but when it's a case like that, I don't beat around the bush..I just say it. This time I'm really not trying to insult your intelligence .... I could just tell that you don't know that..um.....they're not always the same character and I believe ignorance of something isn't really bad--it just means you don't know something because no one ever taught or told you whatever it is you're ignorant of...I swear to god,I am really not trying to be a smart ass. Misinformation is a pet peeve of mine ...






She was scared when he grabbed her-because she's pretty much a wuss, but then she felt his concern. Why would she want to apologize to a guy that scared the beejeezubs out of her? It would mean that it had an "effect" on her and it's no longer fear--

Um, why is she conflicted? All of sudden, she's confused and feels something is "wrong". This is after Kagura declared her his. She was holding hands and did the mugen punch thing--so it can't be a battle..yet now she's conflicted

If that's the case why didn't the band go off, when he first grabbed her? She said herself she was SCARED--really scared. How come the band only shocked the hell out of her, after he embraced and then licked her?

Because every person who's band went off, did so because of romantic setting and feelings? otherwise known as ATTRACTION? You can say fear but like Tenchi-Kun said "The were practically in love" and how do we know this? The monitor told us so... Just like it also told us that Kagura set her body aflame because it shocked the hell out of her. According to the band, Kagura has a greater affect on her than Amata does. Also, Kagura and Amata, and Mikono were pretty much, introduced at the same time--give or take few minutes in the 1st half. So it's not boy meets girl. It's girl, met two boys--in the begining.


@ Iron-mike. Whipping boy? Don't you think that is a bit of an exaggeration?

Also if Kagura lost "All" his fights. It would mean he lost all his fights. Which he did not. He lost only two fights and that was to Aquarion--Solar Aquarion (EVOL) and if you're gonna say "he keeps losing to Amata lol" then I should point out that technically he only lost o Amata ONCE. In the Second half of the double episode. That is the only time he lost to Amata, since he was the the "Head"

The second time he lost to Shrade, who was the head of Aquarion Mars--whoops Aquarion Spada. In OS, Sirus and Peirre were the heads for that one. Serius because he was swordsman and Pierre because it allowed him to use his element power...

More than likely Aquarion Lunar--will be used by Mikono and Zessica, whenever they decide to show it. Because Silvia and Reika, for the most part used Luna when they were "the head"

I have to got bed, I have to get up in few hours so I didn't quote or answer everything I wanted to ---and I made this short and sweet--(short for me, I can be long-winded...er long fingered)

Oh yeah...watching him run around desperately tyring to find his woman---gaah I melted. I hope he gets her in the end (I am starting to think that he will, because Aquarion is the story of Apollo and Silva in all their incarnations and Kagura is Apollo) So I am going to wave my pom-pom's while Kusa and Dragon do handstands and flips...We'll be in the KaguraXMikono and AmataxZessica stands
Umm Mikono is NOT the protagonist and main character of Evol, she's the main heroine, THOSE TWO THINGS ARE NOT THE SAME THING. The story isn't centered about her though she does play a major part, but the MAJORITY of the plot is based around Amata, he gets the most screen time and he's the driving force of the show. We're introduced to him first and we follow mostly his point of view.

That's like saying Sakura is the main character of Naruto, she's NOT. I don't know where you you even get the slightest idea that she's the main character in this. She's not in practically every sense of the word. I mean really what even lead you to believe she was, she has some link to a character in the previous series so what, Amata could have absolutely zero links to the previous series and serve entirely as an agent of chaos within the story and he'd still be the main character hero and protagonist of this story.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PROTAGONIST EVEN IS. Otherwise you wouldn't be saying Mikono of all people was it. The story structure is mind numblingly obvious about who it is. It's simply you choose not to see it. There is not a single episode where Mikono gets more focus or screen time than Amata, nor is there any point where her thoughts are known more than Amata. Are you just choosing to ignore this. Even this episode where she meets Kagura her thoughts are barely shown whereas Amata's are made blatantly obvious.

It shocks me when someone can't read these simple hints within a story.
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Old 2012-02-09, 05:58   Link #1155
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
News flash: Kawamori did troll the shippers in Frontier. The unresolved triangle was partly his idea along with members of the staff. Now, if you had specified between the series or movies, the movie definitely holds your words. However, the series does not.
I'm talking about the movies. I thought that was obvious for the very reason you yourself stated; how is the TYV series ending not trolling the shippers?

Quote:
As for Zero... no comment.
Relationship-wise, Kawamori didn't troll us. I would definitely agree that Zero's ending was......less than satisfying (among other words I could use), but the triangle, at least, was resolved.

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Okay, so you've ruled out Milia from the original Macross and even in 7 and say she was a bad pilot? I disagree. She was one of the best. Albeit, not the main character, but there has never been a main female character that has been a good pilot, otherwise, there wouldn't be a plot. Even Mylene wasn't a good pilot but a talented one at least. But Klan holds my theory because her piloting Michael's Valkyrie in Frontier showed how good they are.
Millia? You mean the Millia who was shot down by Max, and then repeatedly noted as being not as good a pilot as Max in 7? And when did Millia's skills as a pilot ever actually effect the series? She was a good pilot, but you're not paying quite enough attention to my point. That point being, female mecha pilots who aren't either jokes or trolls (like Reccoa from Zeta Gundam and her switching sides because she falls for the charismatic evil guy), are a rarity. Millia was essentially just a great pilot who really didn't do anything significant with her skills other than blowing up grunts. That's how female mecha pilots are treated in mecha anime, because of the cliche viewpoint that mecha anime is all about guys kicking butt in giant robots. The popular female pilot is a rarity, and the female pilot whose skills actually influence the plot, like taking down a big bad guy or turning around a big fight, are even more rare.

Quote:
You actually stereotyped all females in mecha anime as being bad pilots. A lot of female characters in mecha anime are good pilots. Albeit, without some experience, they aren't good in the beginning. However, Zessica throws your theory out the window. She shows some talent.
Um, wow, have you even bothered to read my posts? How did I say Haman Khan was a bad pilot? She was the first female mecha pilot I mentioned, and she was awesome. I also talked about the good female pilots of Nadesico, and don't forget Soukou no Strain and the Jinki series I mentioned, all with great female pilots.

Let me highlight the point that I'm really making and not the one you think I am : female pilots in mecha anime, good or bad, are 95% of the time treated as pointless. Point out how many Gundam series-es have a significant female pilot who actually influences the plot with her piloting skills or can stand up to the main antagonist in combat. Haman Khan I already mentioned, but let's look at the more recent Gundam 00 for one; Nena Trinity was a complete joke. Louise Harvey didn't do anything as a pilot other than take out the joke pilot, Nena. Soma Peries was a great pilot who the staff relegated to less and less signficant roles as a pilot. And that's just Gundam 00.

You have massively misunderstood the entire point I was trying to make. It has nothing to do with skillsets; the stereotype here is that mecha is generalised as a guy's thing even by the people who make them. If you're not male, chances are you're not going to be doing much that gets you the spotlight as far as combat and battling the penultimate atagonist(s) is concered. Mecha anime that are about the female pilots are rarely remembered widely. Jinki, Soukou no Strain, and other series like that are easily-forgotton and/or received low budgets, in effect making them even more forgettable. Gunbuster was a rare and good exception, but there are still people who call it a parody of other mecha shows instead of being its own good show.
Another stereotype that ridicules female pilots is in Gundam where everybody expects a female pilot to be psycho. It's so bad a stereotype that when Louise showed up as a pilot in Gundam 00 S2, everybody was calling "PSYCHO." I was one of the few who held onto the hope that she would actually be a competent, significant pilot. That hope was crushed.
So to reiterate my point, female mecha pilots rarely get significant combat focus; you'll never see a girl beat take out the bad guy in Gundam, and we'll probably never get to see a female protagonist in a Gundam anime. (though I'd love for them to break this stereotype) I am not saying female pilots all suck, I'm talking about how mecha anime creators treat them. If you'd read my first post where I clearly point out Haman Khan's awesomeness on the previous page and Zessica's great skillset at the top of this very page, you would have realized that before ever typing out what you did.

Quote:
Don't make assumptions like that. There are a lot of good female pilots. You just have to watch them.
Yes, read the lengthy stuff above. I never once said all female pilots suck. Please actually read and understand what people are saying before you call them out on it.

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He didn't shaft her. If anything, she became a point of interest. And considering she was from the beginning of the series, by that point in the story, she was the main character of interest. Her tie to the tree of life was what made her a point of interest. Had she not been removed from being a pilot, the series wouldn't have had a nice conclusion.
Mecha combat-wise, he shafted her badly. Hence my point; if you're a female, you're either not siginifcant in battles with the big boys or you're relegated to being a sub-pilot.
And if the story setup itself made it impossible for Sylvia to take part in the final battle, then that just proves Kawamori had already decided on making her the damsel in distress and removing her from the Vector Luna seat well before.


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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
It is normal for heroines in mecha to get kidnapped in the final episodes and then saved by the hero during the final battle. The rescuing is proof that the hero loved her. You have to look at things from the point of view of the main character
And thank you for proving my point even further. By that reasoning, the girl gets relegated to someone who needs saving instead of someone who can hold her own in a fight simply to set up the main male character. I really wish we could do away with this cliche.


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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
@Shinji103--Apollo got the spotlight because he was the main character, main protagonist and the "hero"...he was all three. So that's why Silvia took a backseat to him. But Silvia kicked major ass all throughout the OS and it is she who made Sirius and Touma see the error of their ways.
Erm, more significant misinterpretation. Where did I say Apollo shouldn't have gotten spotlight? For that matter, how are Apollo getting mecha combat spotlight and Sylvia getting mecha combat spotlight mutually exclusive?
Instead of Sylvia being in her pilot seat in Vector Luna, the final battle turned into a war for ze boyz, where women are never allowed in a mecha anime.
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Last edited by Shinji103; 2012-02-09 at 06:09.
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Old 2012-02-09, 06:42   Link #1156
hyl
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Name me how many animes there are where the antagonist, switches into the primary main character later on in the series. .
Gai Rei Zero, probably somewhat Medaka box, suite precure. But seriously though, the cliche that a villain becomes a good guy and sometimes even the main character is overused in lot's of media, especially in american comic books.

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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I mean seriously AMATA LEADS FRICKING AQUARION EVOL. THE NAME OF THE SHoW. Kagura is never going to drive that machine, at the very least not without Amata leading it. .
The name of the show is not an indicator of amata being the main character, just the mecha of the serie. Like in the serie Gundam Wing Heero Yuy pilots the mech of the title, but he is not the only main character. All of the other main heroes have pretty much the same screen time and importance as Heero.
Another example is Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Kamina was originally the one leading the gurren lagann ,because he came with the idea of fusing the two mechs into one. But he end up not being the main character of the serie.

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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Also the NTR crap comes from the fact the Amata and Mikono were litterally about to become in love before Kagura cock blocked it according to that machine and week means jack shit in these sorts of stories that's a poor excuse, people fall in love in practically a day in these sorts of stories.
You might think it's a horrible idea, but for what reasons? This Amata x Mikono x Kagura love triangle is especially interesting for people who have seen the previous serie. Because now there are 2 potential fated lovers for the female heroine, one based on the previous series of the incarnations of the 2 lovers story and the other one being the traditional boy meets girl scenario.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-02-09 at 06:55.
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:09   Link #1157
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Gai Rei Zero, probably somewhat Medaka box, suite precure. But seriously though, the cliche that a villain becomes a good guy and sometimes even the main character is overused in lot's of media, especially in american comic books.



The name of the show is not an indicator of amata being the main character, just the mecha of the serie. Like in the serie Gundam Wing Heero Yuy pilots the mech of the title, but he is not the only main character. All of the other main heroes have pretty much the same screen time and importance as Heero.
Another example is Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Kamina was originally the one leading the gurren lagann ,because he came with the idea of fusing the two mechs into one. But he end up not being the main character of the serie.


You might think it's a horrible idea, but for what reasons? This Amata x Mikono x Kagura love triangle is especially interesting for people who have seen the previous serie. Because now there are 2 potential fated lovers for the female heroine, one based on the previous series of the incarnations of the 2 lovers story and the other one being the traditional boy meets girl scenario.
Neh if the villain becomes a good guy they barely if ever become the main character unless they were the main character to begin with. Or at least don't become the main character within that specific story. Kamina wasn't the main character of Gurren Lagann and never was, the introduction of the series made it abundantly clear who was the main character of the series and even how the series would end up. Important characters are important characters but their not main characters and barely if ever become them. Even in case where the hero becomes darkside or starts evil their almost always still, the main character, they simply don't end up winning.

There are very rare exceptions e.g Ron from Kim as is the case for most story conventions, but for the vast, vast majority of the time what I say holds true. Sure the villain could change to the main character in this story, much like any event in any story ever but it's, simply very, very highly unlikely and more in the realms of fan fiction, than the logical progression of the story.
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:10   Link #1158
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
And thank you for proving my point even further. By that reasoning, the girl gets relegated to someone who needs saving instead of someone who can hold her own in a fight simply to set up the main male character. I really wish we could do away with this cliche.
The fact is that men are stronger than women, so in a fight a man is more likely to win. Anything that strays too much from that becomes too unrealistic. After all there is a reason why most sports are not played mixed.

Anyway, the point of women in Japanese anime is usually to show that there are things other than fighting, which is an important concept in itself. One could even say that by wishing there are stronger women on par with male characters one is using women only to approve his own righteousness. If women have no choice but to follow the path of men in everything, then it means men's way is right and women's way was wrong.

Silvia was very important in the climax of Aquarion without the need of using violence. This showed her women's way was even more important than men's. It should make you think.
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:23   Link #1159
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
The fact is that men are stronger than women, so in a fight a man is more likely to win. Anything that strays too much from that becomes too unrealistic. After all there is a reason why most sports are not played mixed.

Anyway, the point of women in Japanese anime is usually to show that there are things other than fighting, which is an important concept in itself. One could even say that by wishing there are stronger women on par with male characters one is using women only to approve his own righteousness. If women have no choice but to follow the path of men in everything, then it means men's way is right and women's way was wrong.

Silvia was very important in the climax of Aquarion without the need of using violence. This showed her women's way was even more important than men's. It should make you think.
I don't think there's any thing such as men's way or womens way, their are simply paths each individual human can, it would be harder for a woman to beat a man in an outright fight, much like it would be harder for smaller thin man to beat a large muscular man. It's not impossible simply less likely. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be potrayed as able to do it rather they are the minority rather than the majority.

But really this arguement is silly in the context, your arguing about piloting skill which isn't outright determined by physical capability (though it does play a factor), but even more your talking about piloting skill in a Super Robot of which physical capabilities play no effect what so ever.

In this context there's no reason why women wouldn't be as good as men in it and the only logical reason would be cultural, e.g for the majority of the populus women pilotting mechs isn't looked to great upon or quite simply isn't very popular. Though in this show it isn't much of an excuse.
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Old 2012-02-09, 07:35   Link #1160
hyl
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Neh if the villain becomes a good guy they barely if ever become the main character unless they were the main character to begin with. Or at least don't become the main character within that specific story. Kamina wasn't the main character of Gurren Lagann and never was, the introduction of the series made it abundantly clear who was the main character of the series and even how the series would end up. Important characters are important characters but their not main characters and barely if ever become them. Even in case where the hero becomes darkside or starts evil their almost always still, the main character, they simply don't end up winning.

There are very rare exceptions e.g Ron from Kim as is the case for most story conventions, but for the vast, vast majority of the time what I say holds true. Sure the villain could change to the main character in this story, much like any event in any story ever but it's, simply very, very highly unlikely and more in the realms of fan fiction, than the logical progression of the story.
Like i have said before Yomi from Gai Rei Zero, kumugawa from Medaka box, Siren from suite precure are examples of villains becoming one of the main characters. And let's add another one Accelerator from to aru majutsu no index (especially in the later novels, he was the main character instead of Touma in some of them) . Your reasoning that Kagura can't become a main character later seems pretty weak to me. Because a serie does not have to have 1 main character.
Also i don't think it's unlikely that Kagura can become a main character if he does end up being the incarnation of apollonius or apollo.
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