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Old 2012-02-11, 09:20   Link #201
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Oh Madame Bovary...I am really surprised you know so much about it (an excellent review of her character) having not read it.
Only because I've read (and loved, see my avatar) Don Quijote. Madame Bovary is fairly similiar in concept, which is how I originally even heard of Bovary.

The main reason I haven't read it is because I'm tempted to read it in the original French. I'm pretty good at french, but not really good enough to read a full novel.
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Old 2012-02-11, 12:09   Link #202
kitten320
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I don't like shoujo style much because in most cases we have a useless heroine surrounded by bunch of guys. Girls never stand out in that genre, they are plain for biggest part and have crushed on the most ridiculous choices.
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Old 2012-02-11, 12:29   Link #203
MisaoFan
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
I don't like shoujo style much because in most cases we have a useless heroine surrounded by bunch of guys. Girls never stand out in that genre, they are plain for biggest part and have crushed on the most ridiculous choices.
It's hard to find a shoujo without school romance but it's easy to find a shounen with school romance (but most of them are harems featuring poor guy surrounded by perfect girls, though there's some without harems like love triangles and the traditionnal boy-girl main pairing).
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Old 2012-02-11, 20:42   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
I don't like shoujo style much because in most cases we have a useless heroine surrounded by bunch of guys. Girls never stand out in that genre, they are plain for biggest part
In 'most' cases?
Hardly!!
You are speaking about the reverse-harem genre. Shoujo come in all kinds of genres like action, slice-of-life, fantasy, and magical girl. There are even sports and game ones like Princess Nine and Million Girl.

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and have crushed on the most ridiculous choices.
The girl normally picks the boy I myself would pick, so ridiculous-nothing-it's a matter of personal taste
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Old 2012-02-12, 16:10   Link #205
kitten320
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My opinion was mostly based on Vampire Knight and Shugo Chara. Tadase is totally lame =/
Though can't say I'm big fan of Ikuto either...
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Old 2012-02-12, 19:43   Link #206
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
My opinion was mostly based on Vampire Knight and Shugo Chara.
So you made a claim about "most cases" based on two shows? I'd have to agree with Chiibi that you generalized a bit too broadly from a small sample.

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I don't think the female characters have to be competent or successful for a show to be feminist. I think the main requirement is that the female character has to be a) multidimensional and b) active.
I agree with you that competence or success aren't a requirement, though I do think there's usually a "role model" aspect to anime shows that are intended to convey a feminist message. I think it entirely possible for a woman to be a feminist and still stay home and raise children; I also think that's a perfectly fine role for the husband as well. For me feminism is largely about self-actualization within whatever role a woman (or man) has chosen.

Some of the most powerful female characters in anime are matriarchs like the grandmothers in Summer Wars and Usagi Drop. They've obviously lived pretty conventional lives, but they still command respect, and sometimes obedience, in their extended families. The contrast between Daikichi's mother and sister in Usagi Drop is rather striking. Haruka, at least at first, seems to be living a life she hasn't really chosen for herself. If her mother followed a similar path, she isn't following it any longer. Of course, the fact that her children have now grown up makes her independent course an easier one. My own mother was a lot more unconventional in her seventies than she was in her forties.
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Old 2012-02-12, 22:15   Link #207
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I would have to agree that "bubble head bordering on passive-aggressive martydom in a reverse harem consisting of impossible males" have been the stereotype of shoujo manga for decades. And it's not far off from the truth.

Bear in mind folks, for every "unique" title you see, there are like two dozen generic ones. Like any medium.
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Old 2012-02-13, 13:13   Link #208
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I would have to agree that "bubble head bordering on passive-aggressive martydom in a reverse harem consisting of impossible males" have been the stereotype of shoujo manga for decades. And it's not far off from the truth.

Bear in mind folks, for every "unique" title you see, there are like two dozen generic ones. Like any medium.
Unlike shounen, shoujo doesn't have enough variety (even through there's a variety of genres ; you see action shoujo, slice-of-life and the like, many of them are unique) and it looks like we only have 4/5 types of artstyles and shoujo don't like any series that features shounen fanservice (like pantyshots, oversized assets) or overly-muscular men. And the school romance territory with generic storyline (weak girl who want to steal a perfect boyfriend) covers 90% of the shoujo industry.
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Old 2012-02-13, 13:25   Link #209
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Tadase is totally lame =/
Indeed, he is.
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Though can't say I'm big fan of Ikuto either...
At least you can tell he's a guy.
And Amu does pick him.

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shoujo don't like any series that features shounen fanservice (like pantyshots, oversized assets)
Actually they do. =/ The smutty ones do full front nudity....and even the not so smutty ones; there are heroines with bigger breasts than I care to see!
Check out Yukina here:
Spoiler:


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And the school romance territory with generic storyline (weak girl who want to steal a perfect boyfriend) covers 90% of the shoujo industry.
It is NOT 90% =____= Unless you have read a lot, and I mean a LOT of titles of each different genre shoujo comes in, to read a handful of series that more or less describe the above premise and just assume "they're all like that" is narrow-minded and very foolish to do.
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Old 2012-02-13, 14:02   Link #210
MisaoFan
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
It is NOT 90% =____= Unless you have read a lot, and I mean a LOT of titles of each different genre shoujo comes in, to read a handful of series that more or less describe the above premise and just assume "they're all like that" is narrow-minded and very foolish to do.
I know there's a variety in shoujo manga, but I'm a big fan of shounen, I've read/watched a fair amount of shounen that doesn't ignore to focus on women. As well, the action covers at least a small subset of shounen because shounen has great variety in everything (plot, characters, artstyles, setting), just like seinen (I've even read/watched some seinen that aren't deep, doesn't have tragic ending and/or male protagonist).
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Last edited by MisaoFan; 2012-02-13 at 14:14.
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Old 2012-02-13, 21:20   Link #211
Chiibi
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Originally Posted by MisaoFan View Post
I know there's a variety in shoujo manga, but I'm a big fan of shounen,
Right but.....what does that have to do with what's actually out there on the shoujo market?
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Old 2012-02-14, 16:16   Link #212
DonQuigleone
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@90% of Shoujo being school based: I did a quick search on entries on Bakaupdates, unfortunately a lot of entries there are stubs, with only their demographic listed, so I only included releases with at least one released scanlation. Whether this is representative of Shojo manga as a whole is up for debate.

I had 7- pages (of 50 entries each) of Shojo. If we exclude "school life" that goes down to 40. If we exclude "Romance" instead, that goes down to 12.

So actually, going by this, only 43% shojo are heavily set in school, but 83% are romantic.

Interestingly, if we compare that to Shonen, there are 42 pages of shonen manga, of which 28 do not include romance, and 31 do not include school life. 22 do not include action, and 32 do not include adventure.

From what can be gathered there, it's wrong to say that Shojo is all school romances, though shojo is still dominated by romance, and there are plenty of interesting unusual shojo titles (Natsume Yuujinchou, for instance), but Shonen does have a wider variety of genres. That said, there are less shonen manga overall (at least being scanlated...), and it's possible that there are biases there, those are just number of titles, and they're not taking into account length of the title.

What I will say, is that both Shonen and Shojo are often formulaic. Shojo might have formulaic male leads and romance, but don't forget that a lot of shonen can be summed up by "I want to be the best ninja/pirate/footballer/cook/janitor".

And let's also remember, 90% of everything is crap anyway, regardless of whether it's shonen or shojo.
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Old 2012-02-14, 16:29   Link #213
MisaoFan
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
What I will say, is that both Shonen and Shojo are often formulaic. Shojo might have formulaic male leads and romance, but don't forget that a lot of shonen can be summed up by "I want to be the best ninja/pirate/footballer/cook/janitor".
Not to mention that many action shounen aren't like that, like Rurouni Kenshin, when the protagonist is physically strong for the entire series (since the beginning) and he do other than "I'll become the master (ninja, pirate and the like) !". However, protagonists like this often are emotionally weak.
In many shounen romances (I'm very experienced in this genre), the protagonist often gets the either "My ultimate goal is to get a girlfriend !" or "I'll must confess my love to my childhood friend !" catchphrases.
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Old 2012-02-14, 16:42   Link #214
kitten320
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So you made a claim about "most cases" based on two shows? I'd have to agree with Chiibi that you generalized a bit too broadly from a small sample.
I saw more than that, those two are just very popular. There is also Hakuouki, even though I love the male cast there, Chizuru is really bad... And it really doesn't help that she has Soi Fon's, Medusas's, Miyako's, Tomoyo's and Sango's seiyu =/
It took almost whole series for her to just point sword at someone.
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Old 2012-02-14, 18:41   Link #215
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
I saw more than that, those two are just very popular. There is also Hakuouki, even though I love the male cast there, Chizuru is really bad... And it really doesn't help that she has Soi Fon's, Medusas's, Miyako's, Tomoyo's and Sango's seiyu =/
It took almost whole series for her to just point sword at someone.
Hmm. My favorite performances by Kuwashima Houko are Shurrei in Saiunkoku Monogatari, "Isako" in Dennou Coil, Clare in Claymore, Quan in Rahxephon, and Sheila in Mahou Shoujo no Arusu. I consider her one of the most versatile seiyuu in Japan. I guess we just watch different shows.

I agree that Chizuru is an especially underdeveloped role, especially for Kuwashima, but seiyuu have to put food on the table just like the rest of us.

Her performance as Shurrei is a tour-de-force. The speech in episode eight of SaiMono season two is one of her most memorable performances in her vast and varied career.
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Old 2012-02-14, 18:46   Link #216
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Agreed SeijiSensei Kuwashima Houko is one of my absolute favorite female seiyuu. Another role she just nails (besides the many great ones you mention) is Shoukei in Twelve Kingdoms.

I also don't see what is wrong with Sango.
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Old 2012-02-15, 11:11   Link #217
Chiibi
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And let's also remember, 90% of everything is crap anyway
Actually I think that saying is 100% crap but to each their own.
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Old 2012-02-15, 11:15   Link #218
MisaoFan
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Actually I think that saying is 100% crap but to each their own.
Which means that 100% of crap is manga, regardless of being shoujo or shounen ? I think I misunderstand something.
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Old 2012-02-15, 18:25   Link #219
kitten320
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Hmm. My favorite performances by Kuwashima Houko are Shurrei in Saiunkoku Monogatari, "Isako" in Dennou Coil, Clare in Claymore, Quan in Rahxephon, and Sheila in Mahou Shoujo no Arusu. I consider her one of the most versatile seiyuu in Japan. I guess we just watch different shows.

I agree that Chizuru is an especially underdeveloped role, especially for Kuwashima, but seiyuu have to put food on the table just like the rest of us.

Her performance as Shurrei is a tour-de-force. The speech in episode eight of SaiMono season two is one of her most memorable performances in her vast and varied career.
I don't remember naming those titles as her best roles, I only named some of her most famous and bad ass roles
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Old 2012-02-15, 21:41   Link #220
Chiibi
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Which means that 100% of crap is manga, regardless of being shoujo or shounen ? I think I misunderstand something.

No, I meant that I think the statement: "90% of everything is crap" is a bullshit statement. lol

Adding to the Kuwashima Houko topic: I think she's amazing and definitely one of my favorites as well.
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