AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Another

Notices

View Poll Results: Another - Episode 6 Rating
Perfect 10 31 43.06%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 19 26.39%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 18.06%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 11.11%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.39%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-02-14, 15:24   Link #121
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
how it's that cruel death having school (not THIS school as the subtitle translator interpreted it) as a setting that probably makes people in 3-3 kind of affraid of him.
Great,just great,how am I supposed to speculate if the translator keeps getting stuff wrong
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:32   Link #122
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Great,just great,how am I supposed to speculate if the translator keeps getting stuff wrong
Well, apart from that one instance this episode with mixing months up, which I can't understand, it weren't really mistakes that are completely hard to understand. For stuff like that you basically have to know what is being implied before it's revealed what is implied...
Admittedly I would try having the source material at hand when translating something like this, but you can't expect it from a simple translator.

I know it's quite frustrating, that's why I try and keep track of small inconsistencies like this, which can become quite big problems during speculations. It's not like I can actually participate all that much in the deduction process after reading the novel...so at least I can ensure that people can have fun without being lead in the wrong direction.
haguruma is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:44   Link #123
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
2 tiers up, then anything below that. So both sides grandparents, any of their kids, and any of the kid's kid's, thus includes cousins.

Or two degrees of separation, which won't include cousins since they require 3 hops

Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
There is one thing I'm upset about though:back in episode 1 Mei told Kouichi that they associated his name with a cruel death that happened at this school.Kouichi still hasn't asked what that was about,if it's not the murder of the original Misaki then who is it?
In 1997, a kid named Sakakibara murdered 2 people in middle school. IRL.
Random32 is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:48   Link #124
Forsaken_Infinity
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 23
Send a message via Skype™ to Forsaken_Infinity
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
A more likely possibility would be that in 1996, Kazuma and his sister Izumi died, then in 1998 Izumi attends 3-3 despite being dead. I'm currently placing my bets on either Mikami or Izumi being the Another.
You are correct - silly old me going to great lengths to put Izumi on the spot but forgetting that the "curse" extends to sisters without a problem >_>

But yeah... that jacks Izumi way up there as the "dead" or the "another" this time around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Long stuff before this:

5) Deaths occur among the students, the homeroom teachers, and their family members, up to two tiers.

Here's where what I really want to talk about comes in. This is the one leading to a theory of which I am absolutely convinced that there is at least some merit to it. People who have so far been hit by the calamity so far fit within these boundaries. All of the family members who died were siblings, or parents. Library guy said two tiers, so there probably have been cases of grandparents dying as well. This means, that by extension, the ones who are also in danger are children, grandchildren, and possibly nephews/nieces. Let that one sink in for a bit.

Now that I've finished establishing the rules of the calamity (as far as we know), let me go into a different bit of info.

During Reiko's year, the deaths suddenly stopped halfway through the year.

Anyone see where I'm going with this?
I see where you're going but nephews and nieces aren't included within two tiers. And my instincts are against what you are suggesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Err... did you mean same surname?
Nope. I meant address. The poster who posted that translation notes that the address of Akazawa Kazuma is the same as that of Akazawa Izumi as written on the respective rosters. A common surname wouldn't be enough to imply blood relations but a common address on top is almost 99 % implying that they are blood related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
You know, for being the person who reminded everyone about Mei's dubious speculations, it's interesting that you didn't bring up a few suspicious things about her this episode. A number of things were quietly brushed aside that hinted at something more sinister, such as:
  • her unusual relationship with Ririka, with her being treated like a doll that's "not real"
  • her ominous silence about Ririka caring about only "certain things" about her
  • the fact she had her life-threatening eye tumour at the age of four
With her being so much perkier in this episode — especially in that daydream, heh — it's easy to forget that a fair bit mystery still swirls around Mei, one that seems separate from the school "curse
I thought about bringing them up but then I thought they weren't exactly relevant to the crux of the discussion atm and were kind of laid out far too straight for anyone to have missed them anyway. Pretty sure her mom is named Kirika and not Ririka btw.

I did somewhat bring some of it up - or rather, suggested that there is something amiss - when I supported the notion that her mom might have been related to Yomiyama Misaki somehow.

But now that you made me think about it, why should we trust Misaki with her "I already know that I am not dead." remark? Does she (or someone acquainted to her) have some special power or something?

Misaki mentions that Kirika cares only about "certain things" regarding her this episode while in the previous episodes she mentioned that her eyes can "see" things beyond normal. She also suggested that her eye was something more than a normal artificial eye that Kirika made. We can pass it off as just her obsession with art but I have a creepy theory. What if Kirika has Misaki "aid" her in making her creepy dolls that somehow seem to predict the death of the next victim? That is, if there is any merit to the doll falling down being a predictor of the nurse falling down to death.

And the way Misaki goes "Ritsuko-san eh?" when Sakakibara shows his teenage mom in that pic made me go "wut" as well. She obviously hadn't been told the name by Sakakibara. How, then, did she know the name of the girl Sakakibara pointed out o_o? I can only imagine that Chibiki had been telling her everything about the class from 26 years ago or that the picture is very clearly labeled with names. But if it is, then the "eh" would imply that something's special about Ritsuko. Perhaps she was the student who first admitted to Yomiyama Misaki's presence?

Spoiler for further pointless rambling and most likely wrong speculah:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Morality? How does morality come into the picture? As of the moment, it's more a question of the ethics of self-preservation, rather than an issue about the "good" and "bad" of the students' decisions.
Morality would come into the picture if the show ever moves onto "killing the "another" who is 'technically' innocent" in order to stop the curse. And we could always talk about if or not what the students are already doing is ethical. Having people play dead for your sake is rather extreme, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
But perhaps it might make a good discussion topic in a separate thread? For one thing, I'd earlier observed that Another draws heavily on existential views about individuality and social identity that are uniquely Japanese. I still have a wad of raw notes from the Cool Japan Forum I attended last year at Anime Festival Asia, recording author Keiichiro Hirano's rambling views about maintaining "individuality" from a community perspective, how keeping multiple persona helps a person maintain individuality amid multiple scenarios (sound familiar? Mei echoed almost the same thoughts in this episode).

What struck me is that Hirano basically echoed an angst that appears frequently in anime and other kinds of Japanese media, which made me wonder what is it about Japan that puts people in this frame of mind. High-brow (not to mention, depressive) Japanese authors — from Natsume Soseki to Haruki Murakami — almost always obsess over such issues. It's like a sickness of sorts that just wouldn't go away from their collective consciousness. It's the 21st century. Why haven't the Japanese moved on from such pondering?

Anyways, TL;DR. It's still a bit early to tell if Another warrants such discussion, I feel, though I wouldn't mind chewing such gristly fat if Others are interested.
I don't think that this "angst" is uniquely Japanese. It certainly appears to be more pronounced in Japan but I would take even that notion with a grain of salt for we are seasoned anime viewers who hunt down specifically the types of work that portray this "angst" and thus it would appear to be more pronounced in Japan than elsewhere.

But really... this widespread "depression" and struggle about individual identity and such among the youth is something I have observed in countries like China, India and the surrounding countries - if not even in the west. I can assure you this as it is a very real part of my life. I fit the description of a "gaijin hikkikomori" perfectly.

I will grant you as much that American youth don't seem plagued with this nearly as much. I have, however, met very remarkable young individuals from the US and Canada who were "suffering" from this. But most Americans don't spend their time tackling these questions for long, if at all. I honestly think that if it weren't for the dumbed down media and the culture that focuses too much on sports and other activities that provide instant gratification, the US would be the perfect brooding ground for a generation of youth that obsesses over this "angst".

To answer your question about why the sickness is so pervasive, I would say it's the increasingly suffocating modern world, and Japan is a part of it. And I am of the opinion that it's gonna get more pronounced rather than that this should be a thing of the past and we should all be happy for it's the 21st century. This is our generation's plague and I can only wish we'd hurry up and notice it.




Anyway, I am not sure if we should trust Chibiki. He says that Yomiyama Misaki died in a fire but if he knows that so clearly as the homeroom teacher then why are there so many uncertain rumors floating about how Misaki died?
__________________
Forsaken_Infinity is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:51   Link #125
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
I see where you're going but nephews and nieces aren't included within two tiers. And my instincts are against what you are suggesting.
I'll admit I am unsure as to what defines "Two tiers", but "the children of siblings" is only two tiers right?

Is it really that unimaginable that Reiko killed Ritsuko while she was in labor or maybe after giving birth to Kouichi?

Can somebody explain something to me by the way? Maybe it's been lost in the many pages this thread already has.

But how is it even possible that Reiko is the Another? She's not in Class 3 right now, she also wasn't in class 3 2 years ago, so how could she have died due to the curse then?
Dengar is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:53   Link #126
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
You are correct - silly old me going to great lengths to put Izumi on the spot but forgetting that the "curse" extends to sisters without a problem >_>

But yeah... that jacks Izumi way up there as the "dead" or the "another" this time around.
I don't think Izumi can be dead.

Izumi is head of countermeasures, thus she probably had been involved in choosing the person to ignore. The person to be ignored can't be chosen after the year begins since choosing to ignore requires acknowledging, setting off the curse. Thus that eliminates two people, the person being ignored, Misaki, and the person that chose that person, Izumi.

Of course memories could be edited and stuff, but the curse seems to try to be as minimal in impact as possible in memory editing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'll admit I am unsure as to what defines "Two tiers", but "the children of siblings" is only two tiers right?
Depends on how you define two tiers. As I mentioned above, half of us seem to be thinking it means two degrees of separation, while others think its 2 up, then anything below.
Random32 is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 15:56   Link #127
Forsaken_Infinity
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 23
Send a message via Skype™ to Forsaken_Infinity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'll admit I am unsure as to what defines "Two tiers", but "the children of siblings" is only two tiers right?
I must admit that I am not very sure myself either but the implication seemed to be that you'd have to be on the direct ancestral tree.

@Random32: This episode showed us the scene where the person to be ignored was chosen. And Misaki was chosen after Izumi and co. visited Sakakibara in the hospital. Clearly after the start of schoolyear. It may have been because they thought they were safe and didn't bother to choose earlier but I am of the opinion that it doesn't matter when you begin to ignore as long as you ignore the person. Otherwise there is no point in ignoring Sakakibara now either. The "choosing to ignore requires acknowledging" isn't exactly correct because whether or not you are acknowledging someone is something that only comes into play after you are ignoring (by virtue of ignoring them or just not having known about them beforehand) the said someone. In other words, you can't acknowledge someone if you weren't already ignoring (or unaware of) them, by definition.
__________________
Forsaken_Infinity is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 16:08   Link #128
LKK
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Virginia, USA
Age: 52
I took a screen shot of the degrees of separation diagram.

Spoiler for size:


Based on this, cousins aren't included.

Also, a few minutes before this, when Kouichi and Mei were looking at the 1972 class photo, I noticed that there was some writing underneath the picture that seemed to line up with the bottom row of the students. I can't read what it said, but my guess is that the writing identifies who's in the picture. This would explain how Mei knew Kouichi's Mom's given name and why Kouichi suspected the librarian was the teacher of the class even though the librarian doesn't look much like his old self according to Kouichi.
__________________

Avatar: Hazuki of Natsuyuki Rendezvous / Signature: flowers from Natsuyuki Rendezvous
My manga list | My anime DVD list
LKK is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 16:17   Link #129
Squarecrow
Supreme Ruler of Crowatia
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 23
Has it been said that there is only 1 Another? And can we even trust that info if it has been said?
Squarecrow is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 16:29   Link #130
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squarecrow View Post
Has it been said that there is only 1 Another? And can we even trust that info if it has been said?
I don't think we have been explicitly told that there can only be 1 Another, but I would think it a reasonable assumption - the original incident that started all this involved treating one nonexistent person as if he was there, so it would make sense for the following cases to mimic said pattern.
__________________
Skyfall is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 22:44   Link #131
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
I would assume there can only be one "another." The class has only one extra student in every case we have seen so far, thus only one student could have been added.

The opening scene of ep6 felt weird, but I didn't realize it was a flashback. Fail on my part. The series now fails to make sense though. Hopefully more explanation will make it make more sense.
Random32 is offline  
Old 2012-02-14, 23:52   Link #132
DesuX2
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
On my crack theory that Yomiyama Misaki = Misaki Kirika, I think that VDZ makes a few good points.

Quote:
Yeah, except memories are only altered to accomodate the life of the Another, not just to mess with people and make it impossible to solve the mystery.
We don't know that actually. If I were to assume that the supernatural exists, then the "curse" could affect everything. And if you take Chibiki's words to heart, only the range is known. Those in Yomiyama are affected.

And if you take Mei's words to heart, the Another (or ghost student), is impossible to detect by normal means since he/she would appear normal. So even Kouichi can be Another. Mei could be an Another, even though there is overwhelming evidence that she exists physically.

I don't accept the explanation of the "curse", since that would be bad writing and I could shoot rockets through all the loopholes. In fact, I could even come out with the crazy theory of "The nurse is Another! She pretended to die and altered the memories of her life! She is secretly offing students by psychic means!" Too many unknowns to deal with.

Quote:
Yeah, that's kind of a hole in your theory as well, that since Yomiyama Misaki died 26 years ago, Mei would have to be 25 years or older, otherwise Yomiyama would've been dead before his supposed wife got pregnant.
This one I agree with. The only thing I can think of to remedy that is

Spoiler for Theory 1+2:


This would explain some stuff like Mei's hesitation when talking about Fujiwara, the doll in the coffin, Mei's "she is my other half", Mei being a single child. Now, my question would be: What is Kirika Misaki's original name if the theory goes through.

Quote:
Yep, and the best way to distance yourself from the 'Misaki incident' is by changing the lesser known (and more associated with the town itself) 'Yomiyama' name while keeping your 'Misaki' name. Makes perfect sense.
I've said this before, I'll say this again. Names have a huge importance in Another.Japanese culture dictates that a child take the surname of their parents. Japanese language allows for people of the same name with the same pronunciation, but completely different kanji.Now, is the Misaki in Yomiyama Misaki the same as the Misaki in Misaki Mei? That I would like to know.

Quote:
I think you missed the point entirely here. It was proven this episode that the curse only works within the city. The point here is that Kouchi's memories were altered, and his father was the one telling the truth.
I already established my thoughts on this one:

Spoiler for On the confusion of Father-Son:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squarecrow View Post
Has it been said that there is only 1 Another? And can we even trust that info if it has been said?
I think Scarecrow brings up a valid point. Who said there was only one? What if it was like "The Sixth Sense" and the whole town was filled with dead people?
__________________
DesuX2 is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 02:43   Link #133
Unknown Soldier
:D
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
I took a screen shot of the degrees of separation diagram.

Spoiler for size:


Based on this, cousins aren't included.
What's interesting about this, whether it's true or not, is that Fujioka Misaki was in fact Mei's cousin. So is her death coincidental, or is it part of the calamity?
Unknown Soldier is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 02:46   Link #134
VDZ
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesuX2 View Post
We don't know that actually. If I were to assume that the supernatural exists, then the "curse" could affect everything. And if you take Chibiki's words to heart, only the range is known. Those in Yomiyama are affected.

And if you take Mei's words to heart, the Another (or ghost student), is impossible to detect by normal means since he/she would appear normal. So even Kouichi can be Another. Mei could be an Another, even though there is overwhelming evidence that she exists physically.

I don't accept the explanation of the "curse", since that would be bad writing and I could shoot rockets through all the loopholes. In fact, I could even come out with the crazy theory of "The nurse is Another! She pretended to die and altered the memories of her life! She is secretly offing students by psychic means!" Too many unknowns to deal with.
No, that only works if you assume that the Another can completely manipulate any random memories at will, and it's not just limited to altering memories regarding the Another's previous existence. If the memory alteration is limited (and even happens unconsciously, as suggested in the series), there are no such loopholes, which is why we can't just assume the Another can manipulate memories at will.

Since you're an Umineko fan, you should recognize this one:
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Although Another doesn't really keep all of the Knox decalogue rules, that one is a basic rule for any mystery. You can't just randomly assume things without a reason - I could say the story is actually a crossover with Chaos;Head and Kouichi is being mind controlled by Noah2, and there's actually nothing going on in town at all. You could make up the most ridiculous theories like that, hence that basic rule that you cannot make a solution unrelated to the clues presented.

We have no evidence to suggest the Another's memory alteration occurs beyond alterations needed to make the Another fit in. We also have no evidence to suggest the nurse faked her death (fake deaths happen pretty often in mysteries, actually, but generally there is some clue they're not dead, such as the body never being found). We actually saw the elevator death scene and have no evidence to suggest that scenes like that are unreliable narration. Add to that the fact that police agreed she was dead and you'd need a huge conspiracy to make that work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DesuX2 View Post
Spoiler for Theory 1+2:
Plot hole: Yomiyama Misaki died in the original house fire. Mei's cousin died in 1998. Also, this would require Kirika to be older than she seems, since she had a 15/16 year old son in 1972. Assuming she get pregnant at a really young age, let's say 18 years old, that would make her latest birth year 1954. At youngest, she could be 44, but most likely she would be even older if that were the case.

Oh, and the fact that Yomiyama's parents and sibling died in the fire also presents a bit of a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesuX2 View Post
Spoiler:
Hold it right there. Why the red text? When was it ever confirmed Kirika Misaki is a fake name?




Quote:
Originally Posted by DesuX2 View Post
I think Scarecrow brings up a valid point. Who said there was only one? What if it was like "The Sixth Sense" and the whole town was filled with dead people?
People would hate it after trying to solve the mystery in a non-ridiculous way and getting a ridiculous answer that makes no sense, and there would be no anime adaptation.
VDZ is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 02:47   Link #135
Unknown Soldier
:D
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
Hold it right there. Why the red text? When was it ever confirmed Kirika Misaki is a fake name?
Mei says that Kirika is like a nickname or something to that effect. I don't think we ever found out what Mei's mother's real name is (so far).
Unknown Soldier is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 03:34   Link #136
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
I took a screen shot of the degrees of separation diagram.

Spoiler for size:


Based on this, cousins aren't included.
I never said anything about cousins though.

Anyway, it's not that weird that the separation is more than just "up". People in high school, or their siblings, don't usually have children. So it's not strange that those cases aren't included in the diagram. I don't think it's that far fetched that children (if they exist) and children of siblings (if they exist) can be affected as well.

Anyway, where was it said that the memory altering phenomenon is limited to the town only?
Dengar is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 05:03   Link #137
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
Mei says that Kirika is like a nickname or something to that effect. I don't think we ever found out what Mei's mother's real name is (so far).
I'm hoping that haguruma can provide the original text. I think it's not so much a nickname as it is her "pen name". It's common for artists and authors to adopt such a name, so it's not necessarily sinister for Kirika to use one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Anyway, where was it said that the memory altering phenomenon is limited to the town only?
Chibiki distinctly told Sakakibara that the phenomenon has a limited range, not unlike that for cellphones. People who go out of range are not affected by it.
TinyRedLeaf is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 06:54   Link #138
Liddo-kun
Come on everyone
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nanairogaoka
Send a message via MSN to Liddo-kun
Good episode. So it seems the evil looking librarian isn't a bad guy after all.
Liked the scenes between Kouchi and Mei, I'm seriously hoping they both survive till the end of this anime.

I wonder what happened to the teacher? He suddenly became mentally unstable. The knife reminded me of the knife attacks on school children in China.
Liddo-kun is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 06:54   Link #139
VDZ
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
So...why don't they make copies of all the class rosters, drive them out of town, then re-check them at the start of the next year when the Another has appeared to identify him/her?
VDZ is offline  
Old 2012-02-15, 07:39   Link #140
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
How the curse/calamity/what's in a name works.
1) At some point at beginning of the school year (but not right from the start of the school year), the amount of seats in the classroom stops adding up with the amount of students in the class, meaning an extra student has mysteriously popped up out of nowhere.

This is a proven fact. Everybody knows this. Therefore, Reiko-san can't be it, since she can't possibly the one causing there to be one too many students in the classroom, after all, she's not in that class, nor is she even attending that school, nor is she young enough to be attending school at all.
I've come up with a possible explanation for that. We know that the curse targets students and their family, so couldn't the opposite be true? If somebody from the family of a person that was previously killed by the curse is in Class 3 (I think Reiko could have been killed in 1996, read my previous post in this thread), that person can be resurrected as Another. That would make Kouichi Another by proxy. He isn't Another, but he's the reason Reiko came back.

Moreover, that could explain why ignoring a student only works about half the time: sometimes, Another is simply not in the class, so ignoring a student there is useless.

That sort of makes sense to me. I'd like to add that although not included in the diagram seen in the show (to mislead us), Uncles and Aunts are also second degree relatives.

Incidentally, I believe the reason even family members are killed is because Misaki Yomiyama's whole family died at the same time as he did.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.