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Old 2012-02-15, 05:20   Link #27861
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
George is no breast somelier though.
That's right. He seems to think age 10 is ripe.

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Comes to think of it...I remember Rosa's testimony also described second Beatrice as blonde.
If she's Kinzo's child, she could not possibly has golden hair.
So...the first Beatrice is pregnant with somebody not Kinzo. Probably not a Japanese too.
In this case, I think it's probably due to a deficiency in RK07's knowledge of genetics rather than a hint.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Not necessarily. Yes, asians generally have dark hair, but sometimes genetics, to be frank, will do what-the-hell-ever they want to, and give you some weird things. If Beato-2 came to resemble her mother far more despite also being Kinzo's child, it really would only strengthen his notion that she was Nazitrice reborn.
I could maybe give the blonde hair a pass, but not the blue eyes. And especially not both at the same time.

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It's not so odd - of all the Shkanon silliness, one thing I will believe without question is that noone noticed Shannon's fake boobs. And then the anime had to go and give her those GIANT, HEAVING, ROCKIN' KNOCKERS. O_o
Fantasy, yo.
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Old 2012-02-15, 06:22   Link #27862
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It could very well be that she was pregnant with one of the officers kid instead of Kinzo's. There's a chance that everything Kinzo said was heavily biased or just plain wrong. That Beatrice never reciprocated his feelings, that she died giving birth to a child that wasn't even his.
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Old 2012-02-15, 07:01   Link #27863
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

I could maybe give the blonde hair a pass, but not the blue eyes. And especially not both at the same time.
Why not? It might not be probably, but it's definetely possible.
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Old 2012-02-15, 09:03   Link #27864
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Looking down on Ryuukishi has got to have a limit.
You don't even need to know genetics exists to know that japanese who have children with blonde/blue eyed caucasians don't result in a blonde/blue eyed child...

So youd need Beato-2 to have some form of albinism.
... Anyway Kinzo said in arc 7 something about both Beatrices rejecting him, so I think it's a given that she did.

Scenario as I take it. Beatrice wanted to die - being a pregnant women in a foreign land during a war where both are losing doesn't seem very interesting a thing. Arc 3 even suggest that Beatrice 1 committed suicide to escape Kinzo.

Why questioning these? Really I take it as the truth. Beato 1 committed suicide, but somehow her child survived. This is probably enough of a miracle to start Kinzo's madness concerning Beato 2.


The father of Beato 2 was likely an officer who died.
The father of Beato 3 doesn't even matter, but Rosa's testimony makes me certain the mother isn't Beato 2.

Finally ever since arc 1 there has been rumors about Kinzo doing experiments on children of the orphanage (and consider that Natsuhi said they were lies... they most likely then not are the truth... considering all things she says).

So not only it is very likely, it's also full of hints supporting it.
No Beatrice ever loved Kinzo in a romantic way.
Kinzo isn't the biological father of any of them, but he remains Beato 2's moral father as the one who raised her.



Concerning Lion.... considering Rosa's testimony Beato 2 likely never had a child. An 18 years old who gets pregnant and gives birth would probably not be described as a child by rosa. Lion was probably just one orphan and Yasu another that filled Lion's role once he died.


Also arc 1 I think refers to Shannon as the stepdaughter of another maid. That might not have been the truth however it's likely how Genji got Yasu to work there in the first place. She wasn't really working there at first but officially only the stepdaughter of another worker who gradually started to give a hand, leading her to gradually become a full fledged maid "who came a long way" (according to Battler).

Really, ever since OC said that the truth was usually thrown in our face, I've been thinking that it's very likely everything we learn in arc 1-2-3-4 is a lot more trustable and factual then anything from arc 5-6-7.

Hell I'm confortable with the idea that the names Lion, Yasu and Yoshiya are all equally made up by the respective gamemasters of the given arc. Interestingly enough the name Yasu, much like Yoshiya, is never mentioned once outside of the arc they are introduced in.

Sayo's the only name we can trust for now. If I was to think of another name....
Stories written under the alias of Maria + Kinzo getting angry at Rosa for naming her daughter Maria could very well imply that Shkanon's real name was Maria. It would sorta fit very smoothly to me, especially change the meaning of arc 2's FT completely.
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Old 2012-02-15, 09:34   Link #27865
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
It could very well be that she was pregnant with one of the officers kid instead of Kinzo's. There's a chance that everything Kinzo said was heavily biased or just plain wrong. That Beatrice never reciprocated his feelings, that she died giving birth to a child that wasn't even his.
Except Italians are not very likely to be blonde-haired and blue-eyed any moreso than Japanese are. It's very much an "all Europeans look the same" kind of thing that seems endemic to the Japanese occidentalism fantasy (feels weird when the inaccurate foreign romanticism is on the other foot, doesn't it?).

Are there blonde, blue-eyed, fair-skinned Italians? Yes, more likely there than in non-European populations. But it's still very uncommon. If Beatrice had been Norwegian or Pommeranian or Estonian, that's another matter entirely. Granted, perhaps Beatrice Castiglioni's mother was German or something... but that doesn't explain Beatrice-2 anyway.

So even if she was pregnant by another Italian, the chance of the child being blonde seems pretty slim (also, she would probably have freckles, which would've made Beatrice-2 pretty cute I think, but I digress...). It's very clear that the sole reason it happened is because Ryukishi wanted an Italian witch named Beatrice to go with his Divine Comedy references and by God she was going to be blonde whether it made any sense or not.

Given that nobody seems to make anything whatsoever of Yasu, I think it's pretty clear she looks very ordinary for a Japanese person. Which almost certainly means she has black hair and Japanese features. In other words, once again, absolutely no physical evidence that would prove to her at a glance that she's somebody special. I mean, if she looked vaguely European, or hell, looked like Kinzo or his relatives in some way, at least that would be a hint. As it is, nobody seems to remark on this at all. No one says "Gee, Kanon kinda looks like Krauss did at his age" or "Huh, Shannon's nose is a little unusually-shaped, don't you think?"
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Old 2012-02-15, 10:17   Link #27866
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Looking down on Ryuukishi has got to have a limit.
You don't even need to know genetics exists to know that japanese who have children with blonde/blue eyed caucasians don't result in a blonde/blue eyed child...

So youd need Beato-2 to have some form of albinism.
... Anyway Kinzo said in arc 7 something about both Beatrices rejecting him, so I think it's a given that she did.

.
Yes, it's also what I think. It might be difficult to Ryukishi to know the population attributes of Italian, but it only require secondary school knowledge to know that Beato-2 could not be blonde and has blue eyes. I brought it up because I think it's some sort of clues. I don't think the guy is that incompetent.

From the "guts" of Claire that Bern pulled out, and Beatrice's metaphorical description to Battler in EP3, I think that Kinzo is the one that triggers the incident at the submarine base to steal the gold and the woman. Beatrice's lover was probably some Italian guys. She rejected her and never did she love her. Battler himself has made some theory in EP3 that the mistress probably killed herself to escape from Kinzo. But he did not go along with it, because at that point he still thinks "that bitch made up stuff to paint my family in bad light."


Eh....That theory probably has no love for Kinzo. It made him to be some sort of evil lord.
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Old 2012-02-15, 10:26   Link #27867
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Genetic in Umineko? Where did the red hair of Battler and Ange come from?
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Old 2012-02-15, 10:40   Link #27868
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Genetic in Umineko? Where did the red hair of Battler and Ange come from?
Battler and Ange and Jessica is just a matter of styling in anime style. Nobody comments on Jessica's looks, and I don't think Natsuhi will let her dye her hair, so yeah, she probably just a normal black hair Japanese girl.

Kuwadorian Beatrice is stated in the narration as being blonde with blue eyes, I think. It is different.
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Old 2012-02-15, 11:25   Link #27869
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Battler and Ange and Jessica is just a matter of styling in anime style. Nobody comments on Jessica's looks, and I don't think Natsuhi will let her dye her hair, so yeah, she probably just a normal black hair Japanese girl.

Kuwadorian Beatrice is stated in the narration as being blonde with blue eyes, I think. It is different.
unreliable narrataion . ahaha.wav . i refuse to believe that there was no love between castilgioni and kinzo. if it realy is true then .. kinzo is one.. ****** bastard! i want to believe that they realy loved eachother and her death made kinzo go crazy . if its fake then kinzo already had mental issue's before meeting beato
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Old 2012-02-15, 11:37   Link #27870
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unreliable narrataion . ahaha.wav . i refuse to believe that there was no love between castilgioni and kinzo. if it realy is true then .. kinzo is one.. ****** bastard! i want to believe that they realy loved eachother and her death made kinzo go crazy . if its fake then kinzo already had mental issue's before meeting beato


Personally I don't like that theory too, even though I think is quite likely.
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Old 2012-02-15, 12:30   Link #27871
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Actually, isn't it possible for Beatrice-2 to be blond if one of Kinzo's parents were blond and he had the gene recessively? Same for blue eyes.

Although clearly that would introduce other problems.
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Old 2012-02-15, 12:58   Link #27872
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The idea that Castiglioni rejected Kinzo at some point (perhaps after the baby was born) has a bit of a problem, and that's that it would take a LOT of rejection to get Kinzo to leave her alone. Or maybe he just wasn't quite as insane back then so it didn't take as much.

Maybe he felt really guilty and confessed to her that he had been responsible for starting the ordeal that had killed everyone she held dear that survived the journey on the submarine. Maybe he had lied to them and said that Castiglioni had told him there was gold on the sub, when actually there was nothing of the sort. And he stored up his wealth by taking advantage of the GHQ and taking a bunch of bets.

Maybe she faked her death or something.

Beatrice II doesn't have to have blonde hair and blue eyes. She was just portrayed like that. In the same way, I think Battler's hair was always white as seen in the epilogue (it would be another parallel to Kinzo), but it was just shown as red because we thought he was Asumu's kid. Almost no one even saw Beatrice II, so if they say she had blonde hair and blue eyes, people would probably believe it, as long as they don't know she's Kinzo's kid.

It reminds me of the scene in EP7 where Kinzo said Beatrice II was Castiglioni reborn, and then Genji reaffirmed this. If Kinzo wants something to be true badly enough (and we already know he was quite insane when it comes to this particular matter), then everyone close to him will definitely reaffirm it.

Anyway, this theory about Castiglioni makes me think that maybe she didn't die. After all, Nanjo's the only confirmation we have of her death, and this would make it possible to tie everything together by saying that Castiglioni = Kumasawa, which was hinted quite a bit.
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Old 2012-02-15, 13:17   Link #27873
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I have to agree with the suspicion that the reason Beatrice 2 is a blue eyed blonde really is that that's just what Ryukishi wanted, logic be damned. Although it could still be possible for her to naturally have that hair and eye colour.

But to look at it another way: just because Beatrice 2 was described as having blonde hair doesn't automatically have to mean that it's her natural hair colour. It could be dyed. That would be a creepy scenario, with Kinzo forcing or influencing her to dye her hair to match that of Beatrice 1. But if the things said and suggested in Umineko about Kinzo and his history with Beatrice 2 are true, making her dye her hair would hardly be the creepiest thing he's ever done.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2012-02-15 at 13:33.
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Old 2012-02-15, 13:20   Link #27874
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The idea that Castiglioni rejected Kinzo at some point (perhaps after the baby was born) has a bit of a problem, and that's that it would take a LOT of rejection to get Kinzo to leave her alone. Or maybe he just wasn't quite as insane back then so it didn't take as much.

Maybe he felt really guilty and confessed to her that he had been responsible for starting the ordeal that had killed everyone she held dear that survived the journey on the submarine. Maybe he had lied to them and said that Castiglioni had told him there was gold on the sub, when actually there was nothing of the sort. And he stored up his wealth by taking advantage of the GHQ and taking a bunch of bets.

Maybe she faked her death or something.

Beatrice II doesn't have to have blonde hair and blue eyes. She was just portrayed like that. In the same way, I think Battler's hair was always white as seen in the epilogue (it would be another parallel to Kinzo), but it was just shown as red because we thought he was Asumu's kid. Almost no one even saw Beatrice II, so if they say she had blonde hair and blue eyes, people would probably believe it, as long as they don't know she's Kinzo's kid.

It reminds me of the scene in EP7 where Kinzo said Beatrice II was Castiglioni reborn, and then Genji reaffirmed this. If Kinzo wants something to be true badly enough (and we already know he was quite insane when it comes to this particular matter), then everyone close to him will definitely reaffirm it.

Anyway, this theory about Castiglioni makes me think that maybe she didn't die. After all, Nanjo's the only confirmation we have of her death, and this would make it possible to tie everything together by saying that Castiglioni = Kumasawa, which was hinted quite a bit.
if castilgioni is kumasawa then why would she let KINZO DO THIS TO HER CHILD. she would have found out eventualy and she would have hated kinzo so much futhermore there is no motive for her to fake her death. i mean why would she do that? but it is quite intresting theory .. XD
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Old 2012-02-15, 13:33   Link #27875
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if castilgioni is kumasawa then why would she let KINZO DO THIS TO HER CHILD. she would have found out eventualy and she would have hated kinzo so much futhermore there is no motive for her to fake her death. i mean why would she do that? but it is quite intresting theory .. XD
Well I can't say why she faked her death, I can only say that it's a possibility, especially if she rejected him but he wouldn't let her go.

And obviously she didn't let Kinzo do this to her kid. Even in EP7, where Will was talking to Kinzo, we saw that Kumasawa was very upset about what he did to Beatrice II.
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Old 2012-02-15, 13:37   Link #27876
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Well I can't say why she faked her death, I can only say that it's a possibility, especially if she rejected him but he wouldn't let her go.

And obviously she didn't let Kinzo do this to her kid. Even in EP7, where Will was talking to Kinzo, we saw that Kumasawa was very upset about what he did to Beatrice II.
it does explain how virgilia was the prevous beatrice...
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Old 2012-02-15, 14:29   Link #27877
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Except Italians are not very likely to be blonde-haired and blue-eyed any moreso than Japanese are. It's very much an "all Europeans look the same" kind of thing that seems endemic to the Japanese occidentalism fantasy (feels weird when the inaccurate foreign romanticism is on the other foot, doesn't it?).
Uh? Actually there are more Italians with blonde hair and blue eyes than you seem to think.
In a normal class of around 20 people generally you get at least 1 kid with blonde hair and blue eyes in my region.
In other northern Italian regions you might get more.
In South Italy blonde is rarer however not impossible to get while in Sardinia is nearly nonexistant.

The real rare/odd colours for Italians are green eyes and red hair.

Being Beato a northern is not so unbelievable she's blonde with blue eyes, though she doesn't exactly reflect the Italian stereotype (brown eyes brown hair, 60% of the Italian population... again more popular in north than south but still even in south is more than 50%).

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Granted, perhaps Beatrice Castiglioni's mother was German or something... but that doesn't explain Beatrice-2 anyway.

So even if she was pregnant by another Italian, the chance of the child being blonde seems pretty slim (also, she would probably have freckles, which would've made Beatrice-2 pretty cute I think, but I digress...).
Hum... unless you're assuming she's getting freckles from a German mother I doubt so as freckles are rare here. I think I saw them only twice and on red haired people.

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It's very clear that the sole reason it happened is because Ryukishi wanted an Italian witch named Beatrice to go with his Divine Comedy references and by God she was going to be blonde whether it made any sense or not.
Surely Ryukishi's choice for the first Beato was biased but not unbelievable or irrealistic.
If the second Beato wasn't really Kinzo's daughter it might be possible she was blonde as well. If she wasn't I'll bet he had her dye her hair because she was supposed to look like Beato.

I seriously doubt Yasuda could have been blonde, I think it's more likely she wore a wig when she faced Kinzo dressed as Beato II. Actually maybe even Beato II had to wear one.

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I mean, if she looked vaguely European, or hell, looked like Kinzo or his relatives in some way, at least that would be a hint. As it is, nobody seems to remark on this at all. No one says "Gee, Kanon kinda looks like Krauss did at his age" or "Huh, Shannon's nose is a little unusually-shaped, don't you think?"
The problem is that Kinzo commented she looked like her mother... and no one commented on how Shannon has exactly the same face as Kanon.

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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
The idea that Castiglioni rejected Kinzo at some point (perhaps after the baby was born) has a bit of a problem, and that's that it would take a LOT of rejection to get Kinzo to leave her alone. Or maybe he just wasn't quite as insane back then so it didn't take as much.

Maybe he felt really guilty and confessed to her that he had been responsible for starting the ordeal that had killed everyone she held dear that survived the journey on the submarine. Maybe he had lied to them and said that Castiglioni had told him there was gold on the sub, when actually there was nothing of the sort. And he stored up his wealth by taking advantage of the GHQ and taking a bunch of bets.

Maybe she faked her death or something.

Beatrice II doesn't have to have blonde hair and blue eyes. She was just portrayed like that. In the same way, I think Battler's hair was always white as seen in the epilogue (it would be another parallel to Kinzo), but it was just shown as red because we thought he was Asumu's kid. Almost no one even saw Beatrice II, so if they say she had blonde hair and blue eyes, people would probably believe it, as long as they don't know she's Kinzo's kid.

It reminds me of the scene in EP7 where Kinzo said Beatrice II was Castiglioni reborn, and then Genji reaffirmed this. If Kinzo wants something to be true badly enough (and we already know he was quite insane when it comes to this particular matter), then everyone close to him will definitely reaffirm it.

Anyway, this theory about Castiglioni makes me think that maybe she didn't die. After all, Nanjo's the only confirmation we have of her death, and this would make it possible to tie everything together by saying that Castiglioni = Kumasawa, which was hinted quite a bit.
Honestly I find hard to believe she was Kumasawa because I doubt Kinzo would have let her go.
I find more likely that Kinzo was in love with her and she wasn't... or was at first and but then couldn't stand to the clash of culture... or to the life he wanted her to live (as a secret lover, hidden somewhere among people so different from her and that might not even be able to speak her language)... or discovered Kinzo was behind the fight between her countrymen and the Japanese. She rejected/tried to reject him and died giving birth to a child.

It doesn't really matter if the child was Kinzo's or not as he took Beato as his... or better took Beato, trapped her in Kuwadorian and tried to turn her into her mother with 'rituals'. If in one of those rituals he drugged her or something he might have even raped her without her realizing what was done to her beyond him trying to revive the witch in her.

... it's pretty creepy though and it gets creepier if she was made pregnant but was, for example, merely told she was sick or that was the result of one of Kinzo's ritual and wasn't allowed to understand what was going on.

Beato II gives birth to a child but the child is taken away and she doesn't even get she was raped and that she had become a mother...

... personally I prefer to think Yasuda was picked up somewhere instead than being Beato II's kid because it's just too creepy... though Kinzo's obsession with Lion seems to confirm he believes Lion to be his kid... or, at least, Beato's kid.
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Old 2012-02-15, 14:39   Link #27878
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You can't trust what Kinzo believes, though, as Kinzo has been shown to believe all kinds of things and Genji apparently has no problem with confirming his beliefs even though we know - or at least suspect - that Genji knows otherwise and doesn't tell Kinzo everything.

For example, if the whole Yasu = Lion thing were true, he never apparently told Kinzo about it.
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Old 2012-02-15, 14:45   Link #27879
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Concerning blonde hair/blue eyes vs everyone else's traits.

Battler in arc 1 when he sees the portrait of Beatrice comments that it could very well be their grandmother in her youth, if it wasn't of her caucasian traits. Namely the blue eyes and the blonde hair. Still even if you remove those, it's said that the model in the portrait is having caucasian traits rather then asian ones.

Italians can be blue eyed/blonde haired but it's true that sicilian tend not to be.


However Renall's point about her being blonde and "who cares" about the rest... I sorta think is not an entirely wrong point.... at least necessarily. The thing is that ultimately Beatrice is a "role in a story" that "serves a purpose" and I think those are more important then her genetics (in fact IMO the only sorta reliable account of any Beatrice is Rosa's encounter - weren't of that I'd doubt if she really existed). However the idea that I take of that is more or less why I always thought that Beato 1 didn't ever love Kinzo : Real Beatrice never loved or was even aware of Dante's feelings for her. Actually Dante barely ever saw her. It seems the most important point of Beatrice symbol is the logic of unrequited love and effect that changes all their life.

The real Dante might not have been able to "use" Beatrice the way he used her if she didn't die so young either. "The character Beatrice" (in Dante's story) is that - a character he shaped pretty much as he wanted.

This seems to fit with Kinzo. Would Beatrice 1 even go along with the claims that she's a "Golden Witch" outside of a total joke? I sorta doubt so.

Think Beatrice name more then anything implies a form of unrequited love and well all three Beatrices died before the man who loved her. Tho in Battler's case I guess it's debatable how much he romantically loved her, and overall the situation seems mostly inverted this time, where "Beatrice" is "Dante" and "Battler" is "Beatrice".

So hell for all we know, perhaps Beatrice 1's name wasn't even Beatrice but Kinzo, probably having read the Divine Comedy, felt his relation to a certain woman was akin to Dante's relation with Beatrice, in the same way that he did whatever he wanted with everything else about her.
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Old 2012-02-15, 14:48   Link #27880
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Well if we are talking about crazy theories, then what about saying that Genji or Nanjo is Yasuda's father?
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