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Old 2012-02-16, 21:05   Link #27901
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So Beatrice-2 is curious enough about the world outside Kuwadorian that she's willing to sneak out with Rosa, but not curious enough about her pregnancy - even if it was somehow concealed from her as best Kinzo could manage - that such a thing would ever come up even incidentally in Rosa's story? The whole thing just doesn't mesh together right somehow.
But why would Beatrice II bring it up with Rosa? What if she's too embarrassed to ask about it or too ashamed to want to talk about it? What if it never crossed her mind in the couple of hours or however-long she spent with Rosa that Rosa might know something about it? What if she was too busy learning all sorts of other things about the world from Rosa?

I don't find it at all implausible that topics of motherhood and pregnancy would not come up in the relatively brief period of time they spent together.
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Old 2012-02-16, 21:08   Link #27902
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Why? How would she magically know she had a baby in her stomach if no one ever told her? You're forgetting that she grew up completely isolated from the world except for the people Kinzo permitted to take care of her. She thought she was a witch. An actual honest-to-god witch.

What you people are suggesting is that people are born ~*magically*~ understanding how pregnancy works, and that being pregnant ~*magically*~ confers a maturity that is visible to the naked eye.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
Biology disagrees. Women usually know they're pregnant without being told or even educated about the idea. It's literally instinctual.

@Beatrice-2 not knowing about preggers: I like to think she was drugged up the whole time because holy shit Kinzo.

Also it explains why Yasu is so fucked up. She's an incest baby AND a drug baby. "Hey, Kinzo, you think these sedatives will mess up the child?" "Shut up, Nanjo."
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Old 2012-02-16, 21:42   Link #27903
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The default claim you're falling back to, which is entirely absurd, is that it's perfectly natural that nothing about this would come up at all.
Well, yeah, it is pretty natural. Especially if she doesn't think of herself as a mother.

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That never warrants interest and she could be easily silenced with a story? Really?
Um, yes? She's put forth as someone who literally believes everything Kinzo tells her, including, but not limited to A) being a thousand year old witch, and B) she lives in a gated compound to keep out wolves.

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Your suggestion appears to be that somehow it's possible to have sex, become impregnated, go through a pregnancy, and deliver a child, and then experience little or no change of personality because of or interest in whatever the hell just happened over the last year.
That's funny, because I didn't say anything of the sort. Especially considering we don't have a point of reference as to BII's personality BEFORE pregnancy, do we? Perhaps the pregnancy is part of what led her to want to escape.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So Beatrice-2 is curious enough about the world outside Kuwadorian that she's willing to sneak out with Rosa, but not curious enough about her pregnancy - even if it was somehow concealed from her as best Kinzo could manage - that such a thing would ever come up even incidentally in Rosa's story? The whole thing just doesn't mesh together right somehow.
Rosa is eager to answer BII's questions and fuel her curiosity. Kinzo, on the other hand, has a vested interest in BII's ignorance. Besides, you're still assuming BII knows enough to understand what's wrong. If I go to a doctor I trust and he tells me my back hurts because I pulled a muscle, I'm not going to assume there is, in fact, another living person in my body causing pressure on my back.

I think you are underestimating how honestly ignorant BII was.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Biology disagrees. Women usually know they're pregnant without being told or even educated about the idea. It's literally instinctual.
You might want to let the people that make pregnancy tests know this, huh?

As nice as it is to think that women somehow "know", this is far from a universal truth. There have been women that didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor.
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Old 2012-02-16, 23:26   Link #27904
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I. Assuming Beato 2.0 really was preggers and had a baby, we DO end up with a small window of darkness concerning the baby's whereabouts. Natsuhi explicitly said that Krauss and Rosa were away that weekend, and she only had the baby for like, what, 2 days?

II. Also assuming Beato 2.0 really was preggers, I'm willing to put the lack of even a HINT about the preggers situation as a fault on R07's part. After all, this is the same author for whom, despite Shkanon being entirely unnecessary and unintuitive, is the intended solution.
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Old 2012-02-16, 23:37   Link #27905
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Well, I hate to say it, but he might not have even anticipated she would need to be pregnant at the time Banquet was written. "It wasn't mentioned because he hadn't come up with it yet" is a not-entirely-irrational suggestion.
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Old 2012-02-16, 23:48   Link #27906
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, I hate to say it, but he might not have even anticipated she would need to be pregnant at the time Banquet was written. "It wasn't mentioned because he hadn't come up with it yet" is a not-entirely-irrational suggestion.
True ... but that feels pretty odd, considering the number of things that banquet explicitly commits to, that ended up sticking, like there being at least two Beatrice's, the existence of Kuwadorian and the gold, Battler's nebulous parentage, and Eva's survival. What I mean is, though what you say is true ... my gut response is something like "He MUST have known what he wanted to truth of the matter to have been, after raising the matter himself, right?"
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Old 2012-02-17, 00:34   Link #27907
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I don't want to suggest I think it's true, merely that such a thing could be possible. It's like asking whether Erika was always intended to exist when Legend was written. It's possible, but it seems like probably not, else there'd be a more direct confirmation of it. Since there isn't, you can't really know if he meant to include it at that point or not.

There is some insinuation of Beatrice's possible descent in 1-4, but it's isolated and you kinda have to squint and look at it funny. So at the very least it appears to have been intentional.

On the other hand, in changing Land to Banquet who really knows what he ended up changing, committing to, de-committing from, and so forth.
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Old 2012-02-17, 02:06   Link #27908
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You might want to let the people that make pregnancy tests know this, huh?

As nice as it is to think that women somehow "know", this is far from a universal truth. There have been women that didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor.
Yea, I didn't say that it was a Lambda-level certainty, but people have been figuring out they're pregnant for centuries before pregnancy tests existed, and before there were symptoms of it. It's why we have 'woman's/mother's intuition' as a concept in our social culture. Just because it's not failsafe and perfect doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Old 2012-02-17, 05:56   Link #27909
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
As nice as it is to think that women somehow "know", this is far from a universal truth. There have been women that didn't know they were pregnant until they went into labor.
Even if we were to accept the ridiculous notion that a woman wouldn't feel the baby kicking and several other symptoms that grow with the pregnancy, and this is only possible because "hurrdurr a gullible woman who knows nothing of the world wouldn't know those symptoms are pregnancy related", they would know when they enter labor. And when a baby comes out, they would know that a baby came out of them. Humans are genetically smarter than all the hordes of wild animals that somehow figure this out without any help from "pregnancy tests". How do you think a baby identifies its mother anyway? Pheromones tell tales.
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Old 2012-02-17, 06:36   Link #27910
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To those who think Beato 2 could've been pregnant and give birth without being aware of either (first of all thanks, can't help but find this so funny).

This is really the worst idea I've ever heard considering any aspect of Umineko. I might as well accept that "magic" made Beato 2 give birth and not being aware of it, at least it would be the beginning of a reason while you simply say "well yeah it's obvious and normal she wouldn't know".

Still you are missing the point of the whole thing.
What we are saying is that there is nothing that even remotely proves that Lion is Beato 2's child (nor that Yasu is Lion actually) and it wouldn't change anything either to the overall plot so there's no points in debating it a lot.

If a lot of things actually suggested Beatrice 2 had a child then sure we might believe it, but there is really nothing that does except the words of a few characters who are most definitively not reliable when it comes to talking about previous Beatrices.

So basically what we are proposing is to remove an unnecessary complication from the story, while you propose to complicate things further and make them outright ridiculous in order to keep a very unnecessary element.

Call it akram's razor if you want. The theory that Beato 2 had a child just doesn't pass it.

Also it's not comparable to Shkanon, no matter how you find it ridiculous, because Shkanon was nonetheless constantly heavily suggested.

And comparing the wolves story to not being aware of giving birth is a really bad example : the vast majority of children, that they believe in santa claus or not, are aware at a ridiculously young age of such things. In fact Jessica and Battler both used to believe wolves were in the forest and I don't think they didn't know what giving birth was.
To have a Beatrice not knowing about such fundaments would imply among things that Kinzo intended to rape her and kidnap her child from the moment she was born - and this is not at all what arc 7 says. So how far are you going to contradict what Umineko says in order to continue with that nonsensical idea? To put it again clear enough : Beatrice could talk, could walk and do other very basic things. The level of ignorance you are putting on her is usually only found in case of children who (even tho they aged) never learned either. There has been some really morbid case that makes Kinzo (even in the worst of your accusations) looks not very bad in comparison. But yeah, being innocent and childish doesn't mean knowing nothing about anything and experiencing giving birth (and rape and 9 months of pregnancy) without understanding it is fantasy (and will remain so as long as we're supposed to accept it without questions and as long as there's no explanations). So if I'm to go on the fantasy side, I'll go with Kinzo's story of hommonculus, even that sounds much better.

Also consider that you need to have Kumasawa to be lying to Beatrice 2 as well about being pregnant and about her child.

I guess... consider this. In the story as told in arc 5 about Lion and Natsuhi, even if the child happened to be Beatrice 2's child, Kinzo can't really have planned the whole thing beforehand.
If for instance Natsuhi had become pregnant any time before Lion's birth, then the whole plan wouldn't work as Kinzo wouldn't have much of a reason or means to make Natsuhi accept an orphan if she's already the mother to a heir of the family. Of course you could say Kinzo might not care and force her to do do it anyway, but I think that's very unlikely: if that was the case, then I don't see why Kinzo wouldn't have raised Beatrice 2 in the open. He'd have made her the heiress right away and raise her normally.
Blaming Kinzo for all negative things is something we all do and tend to be true, but I think the portrayal many remembers seems to be missing some things.
Kinzo only hid Beatrice 2 because he couldn't publicy reveal her. Of course he made her pay the price for it which makes him in the wrong, but he didn't do it out of malice.
Then as she grew up to resemble her mother, Kinzo gradually came to believe she was Beatrice-1 reincarnated. That's what we're presented with.
This is basically what gets replaced by a completely evil Kinzo who masterminds rape and kidnapping decades in advance and also makes him even more incoherent.
Because you can't just like decide on the spot to hide the principle of pregnancy and giving birth to someone. Yet if I put things together, Kinzo had no control of Krauss and Natsuhi's situation and of Beatrice's growth, I just can't believe that anything was masterminded about the rape and giving birth because it's stupid to make a masterplan that involves things completely outside of your control decades in advance. And since hiding such primitive information for someone for 19 years has to be planned at the moment of birth, the whole thing becomes senseless.


All of this is not to say that Beatrice 2 definitively didnt have a child, but I'd suggest trying to explain why Beatrice 2 didn't bring it up (which can be done, she even remained in silent thinking to herself a lot of time before asking Rosa about leaving, she might have been considering the child among things, or otherwise one could doubt the reliability of Rosa's testimony tho I don't like that... still those would be better ways to try to explain Beato 2's child then to claim she didn't know what giving birth was even tho she did give birth).

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-02-17 at 07:14.
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Old 2012-02-17, 06:46   Link #27911
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Rosa is the only person who speaks about any previous Beatrice without being definitively unreliable about it tho. If we start to question her story, which can certainly be done, I would be inclined to believe that neither previous Beatrices even existed to begin with.
I'm pretty sure there are several red statements about a human Beatrice existing at that time.
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Old 2012-02-17, 07:56   Link #27912
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I'm pretty sure there are several red statements about a human Beatrice existing at that time.
The problem is, there is no Red in Prime, or in reality. The red is correct in that story, in that specific gameboard, but we can't know whether it is true on Prime or not. Same with the live-dead status of Kinzo.

And even in the story, red is not particularly...useful, especially it concerned human and body and personality and oh all that stuff....




About Beato 2's pregnancy, what makes me wonder is not whether it is possible that she had a child at that point or not, but the issue of storytelling. If what we're told in EP7 is true, any writers should at least give some foreshadowing, however vague it might be during the scene Rosa meets with Beatrice. It is not to say that Ryukishi is not a competent writer, I still think he is most of the time. It is whether the meeting of Rosa confirmed or denied the possibility of Beatrice 2 having a child with Kinzo, as there're nothing in Rosa testimony to suggest it, and it feel weird for her to remain so innocence and pure after being raped, got pregnant and having children. Or ep 7 is just an especially nasty fanfic. It appears to redeem Kinzo, but raping your child is pretty much considered the unforgivable crime to most people.


However, if we put the problem of storytelling asides, we did not know what Beato2 was like before, then there was a possibility that her overly innocence that Rosa sees is a result of a mental shock. Rosa is not very observant, just like...the rest of her family.
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Old 2012-02-17, 08:20   Link #27913
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
So basically what we are proposing is to remove an unnecessary complication from the story, while you propose to complicate things further and make them outright ridiculous in order to keep a very unnecessary element.
You do realize that your theory completely flies in the face of everything said during the reunion between Yasu and Kinzo, right?

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
it feel weird for her to remain so innocence and pure after being raped, got pregnant and having children.
Why? Is a little girl who has been raped going to stop acting like a child? And does a woman lose all sense of curiosity and wonder about the world once she goes through a pregnancy?

People mature at different speeds on different fronts. Beatrice II doesn't have to be innocent of the experience of sex and pregnancy to still be innocent of everything else.
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Old 2012-02-17, 08:56   Link #27914
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You do realize that your theory completely flies in the face of everything said during the reunion between Yasu and Kinzo, right?
Why ? Thought Renall and I went on about this before in various variations too where essentially the entire scene can be exactly identical.

I'm going to add that I really don't know what makes you think it would be odd for Kinzo to consider a person who isn't his child to be his child considering he considered Beato 2 to be Beatrice 1's reincarnation. It's omnipresent in the story, how Kinzo doesn't care about blood heritage.

Again there's been hints since arc 1 that Kinzo has been "doing experiments on orphans" and making them believe they are someone they are not (like he did with Beatrice 2) seems to fit right into it.
Remember that the guy ended up believing in magic and stuff out of desperation. Between considering an adopted child to be your real child and considering a fully blooded child to be an hommonculus and the reincarnation of your previous lover, well there's no hesitation to me that the later (even tho true) is the most messed up. Here's one thing that I can rightfully accuse Kinzo of : not seeing things for what they are.

The main point left IMO is rather how much does Kinzo knows vs how much is the result of Genji and possibly Nanjo's will.

Still you do realize that if Kinzo didn't rape Beato 2 and didn't get her pregnant it not only redeems him but make him quite a nice person for considering an adopted child to be truly his child.

Arc 7 says Kinzo showed affection she couldn't understand. My understanding is that its not rape, just general romantic feelings that were probably mixed along the rest of his more natural affection as a father. Still I believe the Rosa event occurred basically around that time, making Kinzo feel she left him because of that affection, causing him eternal guilt.

Edit : Example : Know they didn't do that, but it'd be like Kinzo and Beato 2 going to see a movie together, and in Kinzo's mind cannot help but seeing it as a date, making him act in a way that Beatrice couldn't really understand.
When they were drinking tea together in Kuwadorian, the simple value of doing so is not the same for both of them. I think that's what it referred to.
Or are we to the point that "misunderstood unrequited affection" and "rape" are now synonymous?
... In fact I'm pretty certain the only reason there is a sort of consensus over the "rape" idea is because of spoilers from before the translation resuming the revelations that way rather then use the same wording then in the game, making it already generally accepted before most got to read the actual scene.

See it's not so hard to not look down on the man.

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Old 2012-02-17, 09:47   Link #27915
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You do realize that your theory completely flies in the face of everything said during the reunion between Yasu and Kinzo, right?
Assuming that ever even happened, Kinzo is portrayed as a delusional hysteric who is predisposed to believe exactly the things he claims, regardless of whether they can be independently confirmed. Does he demand a blood test? No. Does he even seem to care about that? No. What exactly is his basis for his belief? Yasu solved the epitaph. That's it.

Only a fool or a madman would consider that logic to be coherent. Other than the whole scene smacking of fantasy, Kinzo's behavior in it even if taken as accurate cannot possibly be considered reliable.

That's the point: It doesn't matter if Yasu is Lion. It doesn't matter if there was ever a Lion (and there is enough wiggle room in what we know to say as much). Kinzo believes that Yasu is Lion, and it appears (at least from ep7) that Yasu believes it as well.

The question we should be asking is whether there would be any possible motive arising from either of these circumstances that would explain any behavior which might have followed. I'm not sure there is, which is part of the reason why it doesn't really matter all that much.

Still, it requires that we ask a lot of out Kinzo, and the man gets maligned quite frequently with no reliable way to defend himself. The entire submarine story, for example; is there a single shred of evidence that backs it up? Yet we're already inclined to think Kinzo was lying about his version of the story, even though we can't be actually sure the story has any factual basis to begin with!
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Old 2012-02-17, 11:10   Link #27916
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About Kinzo...well, we practically have no way to know anything about him. I think that is the reason why his character in every stories seemed to conflict with each other so much. It depends on the interpretation of the author.

Much as we know, he probably was not dead before the family meeting. He could be the demon who raped his child, the madman who is obsessed with occult or just simply an loving grandpa who has weird habit that made him easy to be misunderstood. There is a chance that he has a second family in Rockenjima, due to the testimony of other witnesses about the existence of another mansion, but as far as I remember, there're no way to know who actually lived there, except from the fact that it might be a woman. Kinzo might have cross-dressing habit, and Beatrice is his second persona in woman dress, who knows?


Did Nazitrice even exist? We don't know. Even if somebody could trace back in Italian record that such a person existed and she has gone away in a submarine, how could we know that they finally arrived in Rockenjima? Did the gold even exist? Somebody claimed to see a part of them, but those gigantic amount of gold is never seen after the incident. Therefore, the whole stories Beatrice I and II might have never happened, or if it did, it was in someway totally different from what we knew.

All this made me want to get more knowledge of the public in Prime. Amongst people who used to know him in Taiwan during his and Genji's childhood, amongst his business friends, amongst the Fukuin servants in Rockenjima, there should be some trace of how the man actually is. But we could not get much information. Or maybe they have been worked into the stories. People assumed he's dead, because the servants says that they have never seen the old master during their shift. People assumed he's that kind of demon because of the bad publicity he built for himself during his time. People assumed he raped his child because the rumour of a secrect Western lover and his obsession with occult.

Well, I know it does not make sense here. I just want to put down my thoughts. But more and more I feel that we could not be sure of anything we're told about Kinzo. We could judge the Kinzo depicted in the story, but the real him, I very doubt about it, at least based on the text we have.



Well, a side question, maybe not the right topic: in the PS3 what kind of language Beato and Kinzo used when they're supposed to speak English?
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Old 2012-02-17, 14:38   Link #27917
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Well, a side question, maybe not the right topic: in the PS3 what kind of language Beato and Kinzo used when they're supposed to speak English?
Japanese; the text has brackets to indicate they're speaking English.
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Old 2012-02-17, 15:01   Link #27918
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I'm going to add that I really don't know what makes you think it would be odd for Kinzo to consider a person who isn't his child to be his child considering he considered Beato 2 to be Beatrice 1's reincarnation. It's omnipresent in the story, how Kinzo doesn't care about blood heritage.
But then why is it important to him that someone be his child? Why does he want Yasu to be his and Beatrice's child instead of being Beatrice herself? What did he mean when he said: "......Yes. ......Your voice resembles your mother's. Even your face reminds me of that mother and daughter."?

It's clear that Kinzo is telling 2 stories at once in this scene. One is the story where Beatrice Castiglioni, Beatrice-II, and Yasu, are all the same "Beatrice"; the other is story where they are grandmother, mother, and child. What you are saying is that both stories are fantasy.

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Still you do realize that if Kinzo didn't rape Beato 2 and didn't get her pregnant it not only redeems him but make him quite a nice person for considering an adopted child to be truly his child.
Uh no. Either way still he imprisoned her for her entire life, stifling every drop of human potential she might of had, for his own selfish reasons. A temporary sexual violation of her body, however traumatic, doesn't even compare.

Although he did both.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
... In fact I'm pretty certain the only reason there is a sort of consensus over the "rape" idea is because of spoilers from before the translation resuming the revelations that way rather then use the same wording then in the game, making it already generally accepted before most got to read the actual scene.
I read episodes 1-7 last summer without any exposure to any spoilers (other than having also watched the anime beforehand) and came to the "rape" conclusion my first time through.

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See it's not so hard to not look down on the man.
I don't really see how him knowingly viewing people as "homunculus" that exist to be molded with weird psychological tricks in order to fulfill his own bizarre fantasy needs makes him a more sympathetic character. At best it's a step sideways.

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Assuming that ever even happened, Kinzo is portrayed as a delusional hysteric who is predisposed to believe exactly the things he claims, regardless of whether they can be independently confirmed. Does he demand a blood test? No. Does he even seem to care about that? No. What exactly is his basis for his belief? Yasu solved the epitaph. That's it.
Yes, I realize that Yasu=Lion does not necessarily follow from the reunion scene. My point with the post of mine that you quoted was against UsagiTenpura's assertion that Lion never existed at all. Although I do also think, with significantly less certainty, that Yasu=Lion.

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Only a fool or a madman would consider that logic to be coherent. Other than the whole scene smacking of fantasy, Kinzo's behavior in it even if taken as accurate cannot possibly be considered reliable.
First off, I'm not sure why you think the scene was "smacking of fantasy":
Quote:
Originally Posted by from Yasu's inner-monologue at the time of revelation
Is such a strange fate...... really possible.......?
I've dreamed about it. Dreamed about what it would be like to be the Golden Witch, Beatrice.
But that dream was for me alone.
So, I'd dreamed that if the epitaph was solved and its ceremony carried out, I would revive as the true Beatrice.
......So, is it really conceivable that...
......that after I solved it...that Beatrice did revive after all......?
She's clearly contrasting the event with fantasy, which, assuming the event is fantasy, means either A: Yasu is unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality at all or B: Claire is not just embellishing or leaving out some of Yasu's thoughts, but is completely misrepresenting them. Either way, it brings all of Claire's story to a level of unreliability close to uselessness, which would be retarded since her motivation is to be understood.

Second, I'd like to point out that if Yasu=Lion is entirely Kinzo's personal fantasy, you'll also have to call GenSawaJo's testimony unreliable and assume that all three of them continued to adhere to Kinzo's delusion, knowing it was just the fantasy of a madman, for over a year after his death. Possible, of course, but it's A Thing you have to assume.

And of course it still leaves unexplained Yasu's special treatment before the revelation, which is a big thing.
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Old 2012-02-17, 15:20   Link #27919
Renall
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Yasu, the person who invented Shkanon, unable to tell fantasy from reality?

Why, what an absurd possibility! It's not like both she and Kinzo could be batshit insane, could they?

And again, Clair's entire story is unsourced and full of holes, and certain aspects of it, even if 100% true to what Yasu thought, do not necessarily reflect reality, just what Yasu assumed all the things happening in her life meant. She doesn't know, she just concludes. The possibility that she's just desperate and crazy always remains open, as it's really not necessary that her self-image be true in order for someone to understand it. The very same theme came up in ep4, remember.

I think Yasu gets the Kinzo treatment on a lesser scale. She's either totally crazy or incredibly rational, and while just about everything she says suggests the former, her actual accomplishments certainly suggest the latter.
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Old 2012-02-17, 16:09   Link #27920
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I think the whole mysteries about the 3 Beatrices' origins aren't meant to be solved.
The only info we have about them aren't reliable enough to say 'yes, this story is true' but only 'oh, maybe it could have gone in that way though it sounds like either something is missing or we're facing really odd chances for all those things to happen'.
The fact that the stories are either true or false is irrilevant to the people involved.

PieceKinzo believes that Beatrice Castiglioni loved him and they had a daughter, Kuwadorian Beatrice, mirror copy of his mother with whom he had a child, Lion, who's actually Yasuda.

PieceGenji, PieceNanjo and PieceKumasawa back up his claim (and would possibly back up his claim even if he were to say the moon is made of cheese).

PieceYasuda believes it as well.

Will accepted it as 'true', though Will respects the heart so he might have not argued against it too hard even if it was merely Kinzo and/or Yasuda's delusion if he deemed it not relevant to his case.

So, although I'd like to know if Beatrice Castiglioni really loved Kinzo or not, if KuwadorianBeato is really Kinzo's daughter, if he really raped her/persuaded her to have sex with him/drugged her in such a way she didn't even realize she was raped/let her believe that sex was a 'magic ritual', if he really made her pregnant with Lion and if Lion is really Yasuda or not I fear there's no way to prove or disprove it.

I'll say there likely was a Beatrice connected with the gold Kinzo got, the red truth confirmed Kuwadorian Beato existed and Yasuda's conditions of employement were odd enough to be worth some thoughts but that's probably all.

In Prime it gets even harder to confirm all of this as there can be alternate interpretations (though the idea of Kinzo's crossdressing is rather funny).
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