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Old 2006-12-21, 13:34   Link #61
Hunter
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What takes time for Kakashi after the initial gathering of chakra to activate the MS is the control over the location of the hit.
On a moving target we saw that Kakashi needs a rather long time to try to keep his target in check and can't aim properly yet.
On a sitting duck like was Deidara's clay clone he had much less trouble that's all.
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Old 2006-12-21, 13:42   Link #62
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But, the quote you gave does not state anything about the mobility. I don't remember the chapter so I cannot check it right now, but the quote you gave says only that: "I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area", nothing about mobility. If we need to go with the quotes, as you have mentioned, and if he cannot have that control at location a, then he shouldn't have that control at location b, too. And, add into the status of Kakashi into that that might make it harder for him to concentrate, it should have become difficult for him to eliminate Deidara's bomb.
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Old 2006-12-21, 15:46   Link #63
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The quote I gave is about aiming difficulty.
When Deidara was flying straight and started moving at the last moment it was difficult for Kakashi but not impossible : he missed his precise target but still managed to destroy his arm.
When Deidara this time fully aware of the possibility of the jutsu started to really become mobile Kakashi was unable to target him properly at all.
When Deidara stopped moving Kakashi was able to take him out smoothly.

It has everything to do with mobility.
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Old 2006-12-21, 17:16   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
It has everything to do with mobility.
I am not against that idea as it is logical that mobility has a lot to do with the result. But, what I am saying is, if that quote refers to the general case regardless of the mobility situation then what happened later on might contradict what mentioned earlier.
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Old 2006-12-21, 17:26   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The explanation represents perfectly what happened. You merely invent problems where there is not because you were wrong.
The explanation contradicts what we see actually happen. The other problem is that if Kakashi's explanation is true, then he's an idiot for using that jutsu first instead of trying out more reliable, lower powered jutsu first.
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Between Kishimoto's explanation through Kakashi the guy who uses and created the jutsu to begin with and an assumption invented out of nowhere contradicting it, I think I know where the "biggest problem with people on this forum" lies.
The biggest problem is people who only see the pieces of evidence they want and ignore EVERYTHING else.

If Kakashi really could predict Deidara's movement, he would have seen "Oh, he'll fly out of my jutsu's attack range" and not perform the technique.
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Originally Posted by DAmer View Post
Diedara used the most powerful blast he had in order to wipe out everybody. I don't think Kakashi had the time to make all those kage bunshin and the small jutsu stuff. He had to act quick and its as though he wasnt even sure that jutsu would work but he had no other choice but to try and use the space warp jutsu even if the jutsu likely failed because without that everyone would have died anyway, so he didnt think it mattered if he completly drains his chakra. Thats why he was relieved in the end saying that he made it in time.
Did I say Kakashi's technique was absolutely worthless in all circumstances? No, I said it would be useful against stationary targets, more specifically those who can't be taken out by lower powered jutsu. The multiple Kage Bunshin are referencing him taking out a fast moving target at long range by attacking with multiple jutsus. You're only seeing what you want to see and ignoring everything else I've said.
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Old 2006-12-21, 18:03   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I am not against that idea as it is logical that mobility has a lot to do with the result. But, what I am saying is, if that quote refers to the general case regardless of the mobility situation then what happened later on might contradict what mentioned earlier.
Of course it refers to general case : Kakashi isn't very good for controling the aim of his jutsu but while it's not easy, it's obviously not unfeasible.

As for Yogi, no it doesn't contradict what we saw, it represents perfectly what happened. In fact this is just a variant to Lee's sentence about the Sharingan : even if the eye can predict it doesn't mean much if the user can't aim properly.
And you have no idea if Kakashi has a jutsu more suited to the situation, so calling Kakashi an idiot because he doesn't share your assumption over some unknown jutsu he's supposed to have coupled with Kakashi's unability to notice that he can in fact aim correctly but can't predict movement contrary to what he thought himself is just laughable.

Quote:
The biggest problem is people who only see the pieces of evidence they want and ignore EVERYTHING else.
Say the guy who got no evidence nor hint at all but just invent affirmation without any basis so random that the character needs to be mistaken about what he thinks he's doing with his own jutsu.
Priceless.
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Old 2006-12-21, 18:15   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Of course it refers to general case : Kakashi isn't very good for controling the aim of his jutsu but while it's not easy, it's obviously not unfeasible.
It is definitely not unfeasible, but in his highly weakened state, after failing two times in a row, achieving a perfect success not just in location but also in size, it looks strange. And, if you also take into account the above quote, it only increases the strangeness of the situation. I guess the following statement is the easiest way to express my thought: the feasibility that I observe here is much closer to Konohamaru killing Jiraiya than Itachi killing Jiraiya.
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Old 2006-12-21, 18:45   Link #68
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Really I don't see why you find that so unlikely. I mean ok the whole "I got somehow enough chakra to pull it off whereas I was exhausted" was rather deus ex machina even if it's the usual in this kind of show but Kakashi succedding to hit his target when it is immobile and stable while he's not running like hell himself and whereas he seems closer than the times he missed doesn't seem that unlikely to me.

I mean it's not that there isn't example of jutsu explanation that doesn't stick at all with the facts, the whole Chidori thing with the Sharingan meant to be necessary because high speed is mandatory whereas we saw Kakashi and Sasuke piercing through people like butter without running at point blank even through high level defense lately doesn't make much sense.
But here? Frankly I see nothing that difficult to believe.
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Old 2006-12-21, 22:17   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Did I say Kakashi's technique was absolutely worthless in all circumstances? No, I said it would be useful against stationary targets, more specifically those who can't be taken out by lower powered jutsu. The multiple Kage Bunshin are referencing him taking out a fast moving target at long range by attacking with multiple jutsus. You're only seeing what you want to see and ignoring everything else I've said.
uhh i dont really recall when I ever commented on you saying kakashi's technique was absolutely worthless. I am very aware you didnt make any such statements. See, this is what you said
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Which is at odds with what we actually see. One of the biggest problems with people on this forum is that they take what people say at face value (despite the fact that people can lie, are mistaken, etc.) while ignoring what actually happens as shown. We see effect target Deidara perfectly, and we see Deidara fly away. Perhaps he couldn't change the location of the jutsu once he's activated it, in which case he should have aimed at where Deidara would be instead of where he was. Better yet, he should have seen that the Jutsu wouldn't work and canceled it instead of wasting all that chakra.
and I responded by saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAmer View Post
Diedara used the most powerful blast he had in order to wipe out everybody. I don't think Kakashi had the time to make all those kage bunshin and the small jutsu stuff. He had to act quick and its as though he wasnt even sure that jutsu would work but he had no other choice but to try and use the space warp jutsu even if the jutsu likely failed because without that everyone would have died anyway, so he didnt think it mattered if he completly drains his chakra. Thats why he was relieved in the end saying that he made it in time.
Just to clear your misunderstanding over my response ill explain what i meant. You see i was replying to the part your statement that I bolded where you said he should have seen that jutsu wouldnt work and I said he was very aware the jutsu might not work, but he had no choice and had to act quick. Obviously no other jutsu he has is powerful enough to evade that super powerful blast of Diedara, no other jutsu is quick enough anyway. and the last few words you said "instead of wasting his chakra" for this I added Kakashi thought it was important to save himself and everyone else important around him than saving his own chakra.

As for the second part of your quote,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
The technique is like the other Mangekyou Sharingan techniques: powerful but not cost effective. For the chakra cost of one space warp, Kakashi could have made several Kage Bunshin and have each one launch several lower powerd long range jutsu. Currently it hit 0.5/2 times on moving targets and costs 1/3 your chakra, making it useless for anything besides stationary targets with high defense. It also has all the weaknesses inherent in a high power single target jutsu.
seeing how the entire first part of your quote centered around kakashi using his space warp jutsu against diedara's super blast jutsu and seeing how you didnt explain the second part was just a scenario explaining when and where kakashi should use his space warp jutsu. I assumed you were giving a alternate step, kakashi should have taken,in his using kage bunshin against diedara's super blast jutsu instead of the space warp jutsu and in response to that I said " I don't think Kakashi had the time to make all those kage bunshin and the small jutsu stuff."

Later on you said this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Did I say Kakashi's technique was absolutely worthless in all circumstances? No, I said it would be useful against stationary targets, more specifically those who can't be taken out by lower powered jutsu. The multiple Kage Bunshin are referencing him taking out a fast moving target at long range by attacking with multiple jutsus. You're only seeing what you want to see and ignoring everything else I've said.
Trying to defend your dignity and pride. Moral of the story next time make sure you emphasize more clearly when your making up scenarios and when your referring to specific event in a manga. capiche?
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Old 2006-12-22, 00:40   Link #70
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I'm going to have to go with Hunter on this one, there's nothing wrong with Kakashi's Sharingan. Let's say we take Kakashi's words directly,

" I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area".

This tells me that Kakashi's jutsu work's like this, he looks at an area, gather's the chakra needed, creates a barrier (circle, square, hexagon shape? I don’t know) a barrier none the less, then teleports whatever is inside it. It's like building a house which contains another dimension. I cant imagine once you start to build a barrier you can move it at free will, he also says he can not control the size of the barrier.

Now let's make a replay lets say Kakashi could control the location and the size, it's obvious what would happen, firstly Kakashi could just make a barrier the size of Gama Bunta doesn’t matter where Deidara move's his ass would be grass, let's say he could control the location. Once again does not matter where Deidara move's his ass would be grass.

Now, let's look at it this way, why did was Deidara able to escape Kakashi's jutsu? Movement, it has everything to do with movement. Kakashi's statement tells us he can not control the location, nor can he control the size. In other word's he missed because Deidara moved it's as simple as that, how does this have anything to do with his Sharingan not being able to predict.

Let's say Kakashi predicted where Deidara was headed using his Sharingan (because at the time Deidara was on flying bird) he start's to create the barrier up ahead, but how could he if he can not control the location or the size? Also, all Deidara would have to do is jus keep his movement and he escape's it or gets hit some where else (like his arm). So I don’t see how Kakashi's lack of Aim, Size, Location has to do with his ability to predict.

Just because I can predict where a moving target will go using my Sharingan, (lets say a pigeon) that automatically means I can hit it with my gun considering I suck with a gun? No. It’s almost the same thing as what Rock Lee said to Sasuke, just because you can see it coming if your body is not fast enough to react it means nothing. In other word’s just because Kakashi can predict perfectly, if he cant control the size of the barrier or the location it means nothing.
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Old 2006-12-22, 13:40   Link #71
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Originally Posted by DAmer View Post
Just to clear your misunderstanding over my response ill explain what i meant. You see i was replying to the part your statement that I bolded where you said he should have seen that jutsu wouldnt work and I said he was very aware the jutsu might not work, but he had no choice and had to act quick. Obviously no other jutsu he has is powerful enough to evade that super powerful blast of Diedara, no other jutsu is quick enough anyway. and the last few words you said "instead of wasting his chakra" for this I added Kakashi thought it was important to save himself and everyone else important around him than saving his own chakra.
Learn to read. I clearly mentioned Deidara flying away. I also repeatedly mentioned trying to hit moving targets, which was NOT when Deidara was readying the huge blast. Since I was clearly talking about one situation while you pretend not to see that and talk about another, it is perfectly obvious that you were strawmanning my position.
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seeing how the entire first part of your quote centered around kakashi using his space warp jutsu against diedara's super blast jutsu
That's a lie. Hence, we can ignore everything you say from this point on.

By the way, concession accepted.
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Old 2012-02-11, 10:17   Link #72
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According to wiki this is Madara's complete susanoo:



I don't think it looks as good as Sasuke and Itachi's susanoo and I expected Madara to have a really good looking susanoo since he is currently the strongest Uchiha.

Madara's susanoo looked a lot better in the incomplete form while Sasuke and Itachi's susanoo still look good when complete.
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Old 2012-02-11, 10:29   Link #73
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that y be so, but what it loses in appearance is made up for by the ability to call down meteors.
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Old 2012-02-15, 15:25   Link #74
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I wonder if the fundamental nature of Susanoo is still hidden. It was first introduced as a technique to build the strongest shield. But why can it power up? And I always find strange it takes time to appear and disappear. I would bet there is a link between Susanoo and the heretical statue.
Izanagi was introduced as a powerful genjutsu and then we learned it was more like a God's technique belonging to the sage to create form and life.
Maybe nothing won't happen, because a new technique can be still created by Kishi (Izanami is still missing :O). Nevertheless I think Susanoo will be important to fight Naruto in the 9-tails form.

When I see the power of the Susanoo technique with EMS in the recent chapters, I can't help but thinking the battle between Madara and Shodaime should have been pretty awesome. And the fight between Naruto and Sasuke will roughly be equivalent: EMS on one side, control of Kyuubi on the other side, we only miss the wood jutsu...

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Old 2012-02-17, 13:43   Link #75
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EMS Sasuke's blaze release burned away some Zetsu bodies completely but we've seen Karin and Bee were OK after having MS Sasuke's amaterasu on them for a while.



It seems Sasuke's blaze release increases the temperature of amaterasu for it to burn away the Zetsu's.

Before Sasuke's amaterasu was never shown to burn very fast and at 1 time Itachi's amaterasu was taking a while to burn through a leaf but it seems before that amaterasu only burned when it suits the story.

Also I think blaze release may make amaterasu solid, its odd for fire to become solid but we've seen Sasuke's susanoo flames sword pierce a Zetsu so the flame sword was solid.
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Old 2012-02-17, 16:34   Link #76
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It's the same amaterasu, but it's a shuriken that also cut the zetsu bodies. Sasuke is now able to spam amaterasu-shurikens just like Naruto is able to spam rasenshurikens. For these two to have an entertaining and long fight they need to be in symmetry to a certain level, at least in ninjutsu. Sure they are very different, because Sasuke has a lot of jutsu while Naruto only a few, but if we take only the ultimate level jutsu then even the numbers come closer. Sasuke's lesser jutsu won't work on Naruto, so we can take them out of the equation. He has EMS and Kirin that can be used, other jutsu can be used only as supporting jutsu in some strategy. The only part where Naruto lacks compared to Sasuke is genjutsu, i thought Itachi's gift will be useful as a defense, but now only the kyuubi can help him out of such a situation. On Sasuke's side the obvious weakness is taijutsu, Naruto's power and speed is way above Sasuke's, but Sasuke has his susano to defend him. Naruto's weakness is also that most of his ultimate powerups have timers on them, 5 minutes and such, while Sasuke doesn't have such magical timers
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Old 2012-02-18, 12:31   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It's the same amaterasu, but it's a shuriken that also cut the zetsu bodies. Sasuke is now able to spam amaterasu-shurikens just like Naruto is able to spam rasenshurikens. For these two to have an entertaining and long fight they need to be in symmetry to a certain level, at least in ninjutsu. Sure they are very different, because Sasuke has a lot of jutsu while Naruto only a few, but if we take only the ultimate level jutsu then even the numbers come closer. Sasuke's lesser jutsu won't work on Naruto, so we can take them out of the equation. He has EMS and Kirin that can be used, other jutsu can be used only as supporting jutsu in some strategy. The only part where Naruto lacks compared to Sasuke is genjutsu, i thought Itachi's gift will be useful as a defense, but now only the kyuubi can help him out of such a situation. On Sasuke's side the obvious weakness is taijutsu, Naruto's power and speed is way above Sasuke's, but Sasuke has his susano to defend him. Naruto's weakness is also that most of his ultimate powerups have timers on them, 5 minutes and such, while Sasuke doesn't have such magical timers
Amaterasu completely burned away the original White Zetsu so I think blaze release may increase the temperature of amaterasu.

Sasuke may be able to make amaterasu solid since it cut into the original White Zetsu.

Amaterasu usually burned slowly such as Itachi's amaterasu not burning through a leaf quickly so maybe EMS powers up amaterasu and blaze release makes it hotter and maybe solid flame.
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Old 2012-02-19, 12:09   Link #78
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Itachi burned through a giant frog's stomach, which is supposed to be resilient considering it contains acid. So no, Sasuke's isn't really any stronger. Heck it isn't even Sasuke's to begin with. They're Itachi's eyes. Sasuke's real eyes are rotting somewhere.
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Old 2012-02-19, 13:19   Link #79
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Amaterasu completely burned away the original White Zetsu so I think blaze release may increase the temperature of amaterasu.
There's nothing to increase there, the amaterasu is already hot as the sun. Sasuke knows shape manipulation of both fire and lighting elements, that is his speciality, and he simply uses that combined with amaterasu and susano. He killed the original white zetsu using an amaterasu sword. Itachi was a genjutsu specialist, so his susano's sword was a genjutsu-sword.
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Old 2012-02-19, 13:30   Link #80
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Itachi burned through a giant frog's stomach, which is supposed to be resilient considering it contains acid. So no, Sasuke's isn't really any stronger. Heck it isn't even Sasuke's to begin with. They're Itachi's eyes. Sasuke's real eyes are rotting somewhere.
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There's nothing to increase there, the amaterasu is already hot as the sun. Sasuke knows shape manipulation of both fire and lighting elements, that is his speciality, and he simply uses that combined with amaterasu and susano. He killed the original white zetsu using an amaterasu sword. Itachi was a genjutsu specialist, so his susano's sword was a genjutsu-sword.
Itachi's amaterasu was on a leaf yet it didn't burn it fast so there are times when amaterasu burns very slow.

@Ero-Senn1n;4014538 only the databook said amaterasu was as hot as the sun but we've seen amaterasu burn slowly many times.


This is why I said blaze release may increase the temperture of amaterasu since Sasuke keeps burning through Zetsu's very fast yet before his amaterasu burned slow.

For example at the kage summit a samurai had Sasuke's amaterasu on him yet he wasn't burning yet now Sasuke is burning through many Zetsu like they are made of butter.
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