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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 31 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 31.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 18.28%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 8.60%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 7.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-21, 02:25   Link #81
omimon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Average conclusion, average arc, average season.

Nisemonogatari is just much too slow compared to Bake. The format of short mini arcs in Bake actually worked much more to its benefit than the elongated one we just saw in Nise.

Bantering and heavy dialogue comes with the territory in this show, and hey I enjoy it too, but there really is a point where you have to say "get on with the show." The plot and character development has to come out faster than this.

Part of the problem is that towards the end of Bake the cast was already getting a bit inflated and Nise decides they want to keep even more characters in picture now (Shinobu and Araragi's sisters). It's spreading its character development much too thin around the board now with too many people to give attention to. HOPEFULLY they don't even add more characters into the mix here.

Besides visuals, I feel that Nisemonogatari is worst in all aspects compared to Bake. Nothing much they can do to change my opinion by the end of this season, it's just disappointing. At least I hear that "supposedly" nise is considered the worst. Hopefully it does not continue to devolve in future seasons.
If Karen Bee doesn't satisfy you then I recommend you quit now because the last half of this season is gonna be a tough ride for you. This is of course also considering what you said in past episode threads.
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Old 2012-02-21, 02:42   Link #82
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If the ride becomes tougher, oh well. I still enjoy Nise overall, just not nearly as much as Bake. Just because I criticize it doesn't mean the experience was painful or anything.

Your advice is unneeded.
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Old 2012-02-21, 04:40   Link #83
teja208
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Hitagi up until now was just running away from her past and having Koyomi as her boyfriend does not exactly help her in this respect. I am pretty sure this is the first time she tried to confront her own weaknesses, even though she was blaming them on Kaiki... several times in this arc she admitted that its not Kaiki that she is facing but herself in him.

As for Koyomi being an uninteresting harem lead... well you know its one of the main functions of harem leads, being uninteresting, since it is the only way to focus a show on the harem, not its leader... that said, Koyomi is one of the most interesting character, his main flaw (enjoyment-wise) for me is his suicidal Jesus-syndrome, which quite frankly is pointless and only serves as an excuse to animate/describe gore in the series.
I'm not saying that what you said isnít true, but I fail to see any hint of her admitting things like that.
I never said that Koyomi is an uninteresting harem lead. Actually, itís just as you said, I find him to be one of the most interesting male protagonists I've ever seen. I just prefer Oshino more in terms of a character because he is the odd one out if he happens to get his own harem. For one thing, unlike Koyomi, he is no high school student, and doesn't live an ordinary life. Why he keeps on traveling endlessly and saving people from oddities? Does he even have any goal in life? Not much is known about him which gives him an air of mystery. He guides people so they can save themselves, but in the end of the day Koyomi gets all the girls. Oshino deserves a taste of heavens and hells of having an unwanted harem, abet a more mature set of females than Koyomi harem, around twenty something. Nonetheless, he could've made a more unique harem lead than Koyomi IMO.
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Old 2012-02-21, 04:51   Link #84
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I don't know if i should be envious, if that's the only thing which you was wondering after this episode.

In my case,i was wondering what was hotter that nigh, Araragi x Hitagi (+Shinobu) or the yuri shimai.... And God damn it,my imagination is running wild
Well, let's just assume i am just an innocent boy...

I dare not question that night...
Because an accident may fall under me... (like suddenly 30k++ pencil suddenly fall out of nowhere on my top of my bed)


In the end, sory, i am a heavy Araragi x Hitagi shipper...
So i am not questiong that...
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Old 2012-02-21, 05:08   Link #85
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I like Oshino too, and its a shame he left after Kizu/Bake; but the thing is that he served his purpose as Koyomi's mentor, and its time for Koyomi and his harem to move on. Also the way he was presented he wouldn't make an interesting couple with anyone, except Shinobu, and that would distract even more some viewers than the current ecchi/morality levels

For Hitagi, she is not admitting anything, just realizing when reflecting upon her former self, when facing Kaiki, how and why she was thinking the way she was then and now. My understanding is that she came to realize that relying on the crab was a mistake, and now that she can compare Koyomi to Kaiki, that her fear of sex, is not only unfair but limiting her more than her lover.

In any case, that's my understanding of her character development (she pretty much behaved like Kaiki was in town for her, and tried to hide it from Koyomi, didn't care about his sister, and even got agitated when Kaiki played around with her countless insecurities). Generally, it's not like the characters in the Monogatari series are flat like other shows, they are presented more realistically and progressively, so it's not easy to attribute behaviours clearly.
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Old 2012-02-21, 05:25   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Nisemonogatari is just much too slow compared to Bake. The format of short mini arcs in Bake actually worked much more to its benefit than the elongated one we just saw in Nise.
I disagree. Many manga start with small arcs then after a while they switch to bigger arcs. This is the same. It was time for Bakemonogatari to switch to longer arcs.

Then again, talking about it in terms of manga may not be fitting. For whatever the reason, the novels started having over 300 pages each. You have to just get used to it, this is the rhythm of a LN adaptation (a decently written LN, at least). It is the same for Mouretsu Pirates for example. Truth to be told, I used to watch old anime, so I fail to see this kind of rhythm as slow. I think movies should provide better adaptation than TV series though.
Quote:
Part of the problem is that towards the end of Bake the cast was already getting a bit inflated and Nise decides they want to keep even more characters in picture now (Shinobu and Araragi's sisters). It's spreading its character development much too thin around the board now with too many people to give attention to.
Shinobu and Araragi's sisters were already in the picture from the start. And Bakemonogatari as a story had a point of introducing a character with a story dedicated to her in each new arc. Then again, the series wasn't supposed to last long, so this principle worked fine. Don't watch Nisemonogatari thinking there are sequels, imagine this is the last you'll see of the series. This is how it was written at the time. Tsukihi Phoenix was once announced as the last book.

And I think the story about spreading chara development too thin is misguided. There is a limit to the chara development a chara can receive. Once a character has fully developed, it must be cut.
Quote:
At least I hear that "supposedly" nise is considered the worst. Hopefully it does not continue to devolve in future seasons.
That's just an opinion.

If we deduct your personal view on the length of the arc, Karen Bee has objective merits. 1) a valid human antagonist 2) non linear storytelling 3) juggles all the characters in the series (which for me is a merit)

I repeat, I personally rank Nise better than Bake.
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Old 2012-02-21, 07:51   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Well, let's just assume i am just an innocent boy...

I dare not question that night...
Because an accident may fall under me... (like suddenly 30k++ pencil suddenly fall out of nowhere on my top of my bed)
Frankly, that will be a befitting death for a real man...
Damn you Araragi!!

Anyway, anyone know how Karen and Tsukihi address each other?
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Old 2012-02-21, 09:05   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Average conclusion, average arc, average season.

Nisemonogatari is just much too slow compared to Bake. The format of short mini arcs in Bake actually worked much more to its benefit than the elongated one we just saw in Nise.

Bantering and heavy dialogue comes with the territory in this show, and hey I enjoy it too, but there really is a point where you have to say "get on with the show." The plot and character development has to come out faster than this.

Part of the problem is that towards the end of Bake the cast was already getting a bit inflated and Nise decides they want to keep even more characters in picture now (Shinobu and Araragi's sisters). It's spreading its character development much too thin around the board now with too many people to give attention to. HOPEFULLY they don't even add more characters into the mix here.

Besides visuals, I feel that Nisemonogatari is worst in all aspects compared to Bake. Nothing much they can do to change my opinion by the end of this season, it's just disappointing. At least I hear that "supposedly" nise is considered the worst. Hopefully it does not continue to devolve in future seasons.
I like it all the same.

/thread



In my opinion *mongatari has always been about the character dynamics rather than character development or exploration, so the more characters the better I say.
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Old 2012-02-21, 09:11   Link #89
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The last scene is disturbing...they're aren't little sisters anymore right... oh those skin.. damned
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Old 2012-02-21, 10:10   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Somnus View Post
It was that very thought that caused Hitagi to ask Koyomi, "What? Did you just question your girlfriend's purity."

In other words, no. She was well into her traumatized state by then, which means she was afraid of the very thought of sex. She was saying that Kaiki was the first to show "kindness" and put forth an "effort" to helping her. It was all fake from the get go, but as she said if he was indeed serious and had cured her she may very well have fallen in love with him instead.
thanks,yes I think your interpretation is correct...

My doubt is because that line I mentioned is long after koyomi's question... ,hitagi was talking about how she fell for him and that's why when she dropped this line.. I was like.. First what?

But yes.. I think the same as you.
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Old 2012-02-21, 10:45   Link #91
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Given the slower pacing of Nise compared to Bake, I decided that I would wait for this arc to finish off before commenting on it again (after my last comment a few episodes back). Now that the arc is over, I do have a few comments to make.

1) Kaiki was an excellent antagonist. His scenes were consistently golden, and he gave the overall narrative some much-needed heft and purpose.

2) The dialogue in most scenes was very good, as usual. This was especially true of any scene involving Hitagi and/or Kaiki.

3) Some scenes dragged more than what was necessary, in my opinion. If Nise had trimmed some fat here, so to speak, then I think we'd have an excellent, tight, well-executed 6-episode arc. I'd only have some minor nitpicks to make then. As is, though, I'm inclined to agree with some of Reckoner's broader criticisms.

4) I honestly had no problem with the main conflict of this arc being resolved purely through a face-to-face conversation. In fact, it's kind of fitting for this series. But with that being said...

5) I get the feeling that Shinbo himself likely thought "This final episode is going to be awfully anti-climatic if we don't have a great fight scene in it, so let's make Karen vs. Koyomi seem like DBZ meets a deserted city!" As fun as that is, it did feel a bit overdone to me. A case of trying too hard, imo.

6) As with Bake, Hitagi is the key indispensable character. As with Bake, my appreciation and rating for an episode would consistently end up higher if Hitagi had a lot of screen-time than if she had none or very little. The other female characters are good, but they generally can't carry scenes, imo (Koyomi himself can sometimes carry scenes, thankfully, but not always). Hitagi consistently carries scenes.

7) Koyomi's sisters received some decent development here, although it was a bit less than I had hoped for. The same is true of Hitagi. Tiny tidbits of new info came out on most of the characters, but not much. Ultimately, I find the overall level of character development pretty disappointing for a show as dialogue-driven as this one is. With all of this dialogue, it would be nice if more of it could be directed to characters talking about themselves in more detailed fashion, letting us learn more about them.

8) With all of the above in mind, I personally rank Bake better than Nise, but Nise is still a good anime overall.
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Old 2012-02-21, 10:54   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I like it all the same.

/thread



In my opinion *mongatari has always been about the character dynamics rather than character development or exploration, so the more characters the better I say.
I disagree to some extent. There is very limited interaction between most of the characters on camera (i.e. perceived by Koyomi), most of the time is spent between him and another member of the cast. Also Hitagi changed a lot (considering her character type), and that leaves aside Tsubasa, Mayoi, and Suruga who are the more volatile members of the cast. It is true for the middle schoolers (given their age, and limited appearances) and Shinobu for very different reasons.

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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
The last scene is disturbing...they're aren't little sisters anymore right... oh those skin.. damned
Which one? The sisters sleeping together? I hope you are not disturbed by a family being together, like those devouring my old signature

EDIT: After reading 3xR's post, needless to say I agree in everything except the length of the scenes (many felt compressed to me), and the overall ranking, for me its more like this:
  1. Koyomi Vamp (a little unfair since it is double to triple than the rest)
  2. Tsubasa Cat (most complicated character interactions)
  3. Mayoi Snail (the most tragic story)
  4. Karen Bee
  5. Suruga Monkey (character dynamics and intestine slingshots)
  6. Hitagi Crab (OK story, interesting character, but too simple)
  7. Nadeko Snake (nothing really interesting, except Nadeko being too cute)
That said, Hitagi Crab is better than 90% of the anime I have watched since 2004... IMsubjectiveO

Last edited by Malkuth; 2012-02-21 at 11:05.
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Old 2012-02-21, 11:01   Link #93
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Since we're comparing, for me Shinobu's been a highlight of Nise so far, and her first appearance was as good as Bake's episode 12 car conversation. Araragi's conflict with his sisters up to the resolution with Karen this episode was great too. Araragi X Hitagi has been a bit disappointing though, their parts never end satisfyingly even if the book supposedly leaves the good stuff out as well.
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Old 2012-02-21, 11:17   Link #94
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Oh, one thing I forgot - Superb seiyu work in this.

SHAFT has done a great job with getting excellent voice talent for its two franchise properties of Monogatari and Madoka Magica (Chiwa Saito, Eri Kitamura, and Emiri Kato playing key roles in both).
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Old 2012-02-21, 11:28   Link #95
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As much as I found the dialogue between our protagonists and Kaiki interesting and confusing, I was still hoping on Shinobu coming out and getting him good, or something along those lines of beating up Kaiki. Especially with all the insult Gahara took, I'm surprised nothing happened. Or perhaps it was important that they do nothing, to show Gahara's control over her trauma and fears, to prove to Gahara herself that she is strong enough to not fall for such petty temptations.

I LOLed when Shinobu mentioned about letting Araragi pet her breasts, and despair followed. Oh Araragi, where did your noble pedophile heart go? On a different note, is it impossible for Shinobu to go back to her original form, even if its just in shape?

Oh yea, and congrats to Araragi and Gahara for graduating from the virgin status.
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Old 2012-02-21, 12:55   Link #96
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7) Koyomi's sisters received some decent development here, although it was a bit less than I had hoped for. The same is true of Hitagi. Tiny tidbits of new info came out on most of the characters, but not much. Ultimately, I find the overall level of character development pretty disappointing for a show as dialogue-driven as this one is. With all of this dialogue, it would be nice if more of it could be directed to characters talking about themselves in more detailed fashion, letting us learn more about them.
Having the characters talk about themselves directly would be extremely out-of-character and jarring, not to mention unrealistic (not that realism is exactly a priority here...). It's just not something that they do except in the most extreme circumstances. The way the series has gone so far, most information about the characters is instead inferred from the way they talk about trivial things. That is character development, it's just more subtle and, dare I say, better written than the kind of in-your-face character development many other series go for.

Of course, that doesn't mean Nise is perfect. Related to the pacing issues, it's been kind of repetitive. We learn the same things about Araragi and Karen over and over and over again before finally getting to climax where they put a slight twist on it to create the resolution. I suppose we learn these things while Araragi is talking to different people, but that makes the conversations... half useless? One third useless? I think the story could have been better served by being more focused and not spending so much time on reintroducing the old characters like Sengoku and Kanbaru.
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Old 2012-02-21, 13:42   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Which one? The sisters sleeping together? I hope you are not disturbed by a family being together, like those devouring my old signature

EDIT: After reading 3xR's post, needless to say I agree in everything except the length of the scenes (many felt compressed to me), and the overall ranking, for me its more like this:
  1. Koyomi Vamp (a little unfair since it is double to triple than the rest)
  2. Tsubasa Cat (most complicated character interactions)
  3. Mayoi Snail (the most tragic story)
  4. Karen Bee
  5. Suruga Monkey (character dynamics and intestine slingshots)
  6. Hitagi Crab (OK story, interesting character, but too simple)
  7. Nadeko Snake (nothing really interesting, except Nadeko being too cute)
It is indeed disturbing! I mean, the artist clearly didn't put enough effort and their bodies look twisted enough so I can't really see if they have an ass or not. Stuff like that is important! Yea I know, it was supposed to be a flash but some people rewind for these things.

And yea, I pretty much agree with your story hierarchy. Though Koyomi Vamp I don't know of.
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Old 2012-02-21, 14:12   Link #98
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I disagree. Many manga start with small arcs then after a while they switch to bigger arcs. This is the same. It was time for Bakemonogatari to switch to longer arcs.
Bigger arcs are fine, so long as they actually use the time effectively. What I am saying is that this arc did not use its time effectively, which makes me think that a longer arc was in the end unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Then again, talking about it in terms of manga may not be fitting. For whatever the reason, the novels started having over 300 pages each. You have to just get used to it, this is the rhythm of a LN adaptation (a decently written LN, at least). It is the same for Mouretsu Pirates for example. Truth to be told, I used to watch old anime, so I fail to see this kind of rhythm as slow. I think movies should provide better adaptation than TV series though.
Some LN adaptions hide this weakness better than others. Moretsu Pirates is in fact one that is quite poor at hiding it. I don't compare these to longer TV series since they're really different beasts. In any case, something like LoGH packed in much more detail and meaningful character itneraction. But I'm not here to make comparisons to other series. From my point of view Bake was much more succinct, and to the point, which could only benefit this kind of series. If they kept that in tact switching over to longer arcs I wouldn't mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Shinobu and Araragi's sisters were already in the picture from the start. And Bakemonogatari as a story had a point of introducing a character with a story dedicated to her in each new arc. Then again, the series wasn't supposed to last long, so this principle worked fine. Don't watch Nisemonogatari thinking there are sequels, imagine this is the last you'll see of the series. This is how it was written at the time. Tsukihi Phoenix was once announced as the last book.

And I think the story about spreading chara development too thin is misguided. There is a limit to the chara development a chara can receive. Once a character has fully developed, it must be cut.
Whether they were or not doesn't matter. It's not like a series is forced to give every single person who appears on screen lots of character development. The thing is unlike previous stories in Monogatari, Nise really is juggling so many characters that it's a struggle for each one to earn any screen time of significance. I personally found Karen's development in Nise poor considering she hardly got much time on screen, and it was spread thin over 7 episodes compared to the much more neatly packed development of Bake.

Whether or not Nisio Osin was thinking this might be the last novel for Monogatari is irrelevant to me. It doesn't change the fact that what I'm seeing here is less enjoyable to me.

There's also the idea that all good things must come to an end. Forever extending a franchise with countless introductions of characters, leaving behind the old cast to rot and decay, is bad storytelling. I don't think Monogatari is at this point btw, just a general statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
That's just an opinion.

If we deduct your personal view on the length of the arc, Karen Bee has objective merits. 1) a valid human antagonist 2) non linear storytelling 3) juggles all the characters in the series (which for me is a merit)

I repeat, I personally rank Nise better than Bake.
What else would it be ?

In any case I never said Nise was worthless, just not as good as Bake from my POV.
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Old 2012-02-21, 14:14   Link #99
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Having the characters talk about themselves directly would be extremely out-of-character and jarring, not to mention unrealistic (not that realism is exactly a priority here...).
... Why? People in real life talk about themselves all the time. Facebook alone is an excellent example of this.

People generally like to express themselves, and share their experiences and important background details about themselves, with their friends and loved ones. That's perfectly realistic, in-character (in at least some cases), and not jarring.

It would be perfectly natural for Kanbaru to talk about her favorite foods or sports or recent accomplishments, for Tsubasa to talk about her best subjects and some of her personal interests, for Nadeko to talk about her favorite types of shows and games (well, I guess we at least found out she likes Twister ), etc..., etc...

We get so few details of this nature on either of the characters, and these are the sorts of things that, in my opinion, can breath some welcomed life and realism into a character while adding to their distinctiveness. These are also the sorts of specific character details that often can't be inferred from unrelated conversation or dialogue.


Now this is certainly not the only way to develop characters, but for a show that is as dialogue-driven as this one is (hence not allowing for many instances of 'actions speak louder than words'), I think it's a way that should be used more.


Quote:
The way the series has gone so far, most information about the characters is instead inferred from the way they talk about trivial things.
It's fine to leave some things to viewer interpretation (i.e. through implication or inferring), but some character development should be more clear-cut than that so that all viewers have a good (if imperfect) understanding and appreciation of a particular character and how s/he's been developed.


Quote:
it's just more subtle and, dare I say, better written than the kind of in-your-face character development many other series go for.
I somewhat disagree. What you call "In-your-face" character development thankfully leaves no doubt to it, which again gives the benefit of all viewers having a better understanding of your characters.

Well-written character development leaves a few things to viewer interpretation (since viewers tend to like to have some flexibility in how they perceive their favorite characters) but at the same time gives enough clear-cut development so that pretty much every viewer can spot some character development and appreciate it.


Quote:
Of course, that doesn't mean Nise is perfect. Related to the pacing issues, it's been kind of repetitive. We learn the same things about Araragi and Karen over and over and over again before finally getting to climax where they put a slight twist on it to create the resolution. I suppose we learn these things while Araragi is talking to different people, but that makes the conversations... half useless? One third useless? I think the story could have been better served by being more focused and not spending so much time on reintroducing the old characters like Sengoku and Kanbaru.
Here we agree. It's like I said - It would have been better if they had trimmed some fat.
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Old 2012-02-21, 14:23   Link #100
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awesome episode, nice ending to a great arc, can't wait for the next arc to start!!
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