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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 31 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 31.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 18.28%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 8.60%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 7.53%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-21, 16:09   Link #101
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Bigger arcs are fine, so long as they actually use the time effectively. What I am saying is that this arc did not use its time effectively, which makes me think that a longer arc was in the end unnecessary.
I have read all the novels, and I can say that in all the series there are indeed parts that drag here and there, but Karen Bee is very solid and creative.

I have to state this clearly, if not for you for other people. The parts with Sengoku and Kanbaru were necessary. The series attempt at striking everyone's fancy. It can't abandon characters without reason.

As it is, in the first half of Karen Bee in the plot Araragi has a parallel route to Karen, where he meets other characters while Karen has her adventure, and meanwhile Araragi get hints at what Karen is doing. That part was ingenious.

Also, in doing so the characters got developed. Kanbaru in Nadeko Snake was joking about stripping, and in Nise she actually did it. Sengoku raised her bangs, which was an important detail in the novel, and she also showed a new side of herself. With Hachikuji it was raised the plot point of how long can Hachikuji stay there. These are not co-protagonists, so their importance in the plot of Karen Bee is obviously limited, but they contribute in creating an image of the world of the series as alive and thriving.
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From my point of view Bake was much more succinct, and to the point, which could only benefit this kind of series. If they kept that in tact switching over to longer arcs I wouldn't mind.
"They" who? Nisio writes each story as a book and Shaft performs a faithful adaptation. There is not much leeway for change.
Quote:
Whether they were or not doesn't matter. It's not like a series is forced to give every single person who appears on screen lots of character development. The thing is unlike previous stories in Monogatari, Nise really is juggling so many characters that it's a struggle for each one to earn any screen time of significance.
Not all characters are important in a story. Some can remain in the background just to show the world is going on, which is what happened here. And in itself is fine. Well, in the anime parts like Nadeko and the fight with Karen got shafted because Shaft could cut less from the second half of the episode. That is a problem of adaptation, but it can only be solved by making episodes longer, not shorter.
Quote:
I personally found Karen's development in Nise poor considering she hardly got much time on screen, and it was spread thin over 7 episodes compared to the much more neatly packed development of Bake.
Letting aside that the fact the story is called Karen Bee doesn't imply anything about the screentime of Karen... Karen did receive chara development. She started from "nii-chan doesn't understand anything, I'll go beat up Kaiki" and she ended with "I'll leave things to you. I love you nii-chan". This is enough chara development, especially considering the main character is not her but Araragi, and that her story is nothing but a backdrop to showcase the confrontation between Araragi, Senjougahara and Kaiki.
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There's also the idea that all good things must come to an end. Forever extending a franchise with countless introductions of characters, leaving behind the old cast to rot and decay, is bad storytelling. I don't think Monogatari is at this point btw, just a general statement.
The old cast would have rotten if it didn't get to have at least some cameos. This especially considering the author was pondering about ending the series at that point.
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Old 2012-02-21, 16:16   Link #102
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... Why? People in real life talk about themselves all the time. Facebook alone is an excellent example of this.

People generally like to express themselves, and share their experiences and important background details about themselves, with their friends and loved ones. That's perfectly realistic, in-character (in at least some cases), and not jarring.

It would be perfectly natural for Kanbaru to talk about her favorite foods or sports or recent accomplishments, for Tsubasa to talk about her best subjects and some of her personal interests, for Nadeko to talk about her favorite types of shows and games (well, I guess we at least found out she likes Twister ), etc..., etc...

We get so few details of this nature on either of the characters, and these are the sorts of things that, in my opinion, can breath some welcomed life and realism into a character while adding to their distinctiveness. These are also the sorts of specific character details that often can't be inferred from unrelated conversation or dialogue.
That's what you were doing about? I thought you were talking about their secret worries or traumatic pasts or whatever. I'd count "favorite foods" and "best subjects" as part of the trivial banter. If it contains character development, it could only be in the hows and whys that are left unstated. For the record though, Kanbaru does talk about that kind of stuff, mostly her fetishes but also what she's done with her sports team. And Hanekawa likely doesn't have a best subject because she's more about studying than learning from enthusiasm and she did mention a radio show she listens to back in Bake. And Sengoku can barely string together a coherent sentence in front of Araragi. Everything she does manage to say is pretty heavily calculated, so she's not one for trivial talk.
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Old 2012-02-21, 17:05   Link #103
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
for Nadeko to talk about her favorite types of shows and games
She says she plays only the famous games, like Metal Gear. For MSX2. And she also plays Popira 2. It got cut from the anime though.

While not much, there are small details here and there, but they usually the got cut in the adaptation.

EDIT: come to think of it, the game Nadeko likes the most must obviously be the Game of Life, which she played with Araragi as a child.

Last edited by Shikijin; 2012-02-21 at 17:27.
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Old 2012-02-21, 20:29   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
... Why? People in real life talk about themselves all the time. Facebook alone is an excellent example of this.

People generally like to express themselves, and share their experiences and important background details about themselves, with their friends and loved ones. That's perfectly realistic, in-character (in at least some cases), and not jarring.

It would be perfectly natural for Kanbaru to talk about her favorite foods or sports or recent accomplishments, for Tsubasa to talk about her best subjects and some of her personal interests, for Nadeko to talk about her favorite types of shows and games (well, I guess we at least found out she likes Twister ), etc..., etc...


I mean yea, it's only natural to talk about yourself in real life too. I mean, we don't just sit around and wait for plot to happen, and then give exposition after all.
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Old 2012-02-21, 22:43   Link #105
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any little breakdown on some of the minor things that was cut like what was posted in the other episode threads?
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Old 2012-02-21, 22:48   Link #106
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SHinkijin did a brilliant job on that...

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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Spoiler for chapters 20-21-22:
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Old 2012-02-21, 23:39   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
I have read all the novels, and I can say that in all the series there are indeed parts that drag here and there, but Karen Bee is very solid and creative.

I have to state this clearly, if not for you for other people. The parts with Sengoku and Kanbaru were necessary. The series attempt at striking everyone's fancy. It can't abandon characters without reason.
Then maybe it shouldn't of introduced so many characters in the first place.

Kurt Vonnegut (If you don't know him look him up, famous writer), once said and I quote:

"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia."

I think this should apply here, and I really hope Monogatari doesn't run into this issue too much as it goes on.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
As it is, in the first half of Karen Bee in the plot Araragi has a parallel route to Karen, where he meets other characters while Karen has her adventure, and meanwhile Araragi get hints at what Karen is doing. That part was ingenious.

Also, in doing so the characters got developed. Kanbaru in Nadeko Snake was joking about stripping, and in Nise she actually did it. Sengoku raised her bangs, which was an important detail in the novel, and she also showed a new side of herself. With Hachikuji it was raised the plot point of how long can Hachikuji stay there. These are not co-protagonists, so their importance in the plot of Karen Bee is obviously limited, but they contribute in creating an image of the world of the series as alive and thriving.
It might be a clever way of getting some other characters screen time in semi-relevant fashion, but I question the intention in the first place. I rather have had more Karen screen time personally.

I don't think the Sengoku and Kanbaru development though was very good though. Particularly Sengoku. So it was almost like negative development to me.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
"They" who? Nisio writes each story as a book and Shaft performs a faithful adaptation. There is not much leeway for change.
Since when were studios mandated to completely follow a source word for word in an adaption? Anime and light novels are different mediums. You have to adjust for the medium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Not all characters are important in a story. Some can remain in the background just to show the world is going on, which is what happened here. And in itself is fine. Well, in the anime parts like Nadeko and the fight with Karen got shafted because Shaft could cut less from the second half of the episode. That is a problem of adaptation, but it can only be solved by making episodes longer, not shorter.
The solution is to cut away character screen time. Nadeko's contribution to this arc for example was completely unnecessary and whatever information she did give Koyomi could have been given by some other character in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Letting aside that the fact the story is called Karen Bee doesn't imply anything about the screentime of Karen... Karen did receive chara development. She started from "nii-chan doesn't understand anything, I'll go beat up Kaiki" and she ended with "I'll leave things to you. I love you nii-chan". This is enough chara development, especially considering the main character is not her but Araragi, and that her story is nothing but a backdrop to showcase the confrontation between Araragi, Senjougahara and Kaiki.
So the plot surrounds a character but we don't need to give that character a lot of development? C'mon now. It's just the sensible thing to do imo.

I don't think her development was particularly great in any case, and very little was given at all. She's better than Nadeko though. Nadeko is just a moe blob.
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Old 2012-02-22, 00:05   Link #108
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@Reckoner:
just think it's Japanese novel style,and Shaft have only been trying to faithful with it. I means all of us probably once read/watch a European or Asian translated novel/drama, and can't understand the point of half of its content...

I think someone mentioned before, that this part of the novel at first was considered to be near the end. So every character was mentioned to pay their homage (hence Kanbaru and Sengoku screen time). And then,boom, the author are allowed to write more, and it becomes a bit out of places (sort of). And frankly, Monogatari Series are slowly becoming a picture/sound novel, more than an anime. It's more "dialogues with animated background", than "animated characters with dialogues"
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Old 2012-02-22, 00:06   Link #109
omimon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Then maybe it shouldn't of introduced so many characters in the first place.

Kurt Vonnegut (If you don't know him look him up, famous writer), once said and I quote:

"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia."

I think this should apply here, and I really hope Monogatari doesn't run into this issue too much as it goes on.
Hahahahaha oh man, the very notion of this series having too many characters is hilarious. One word: Zaregoto. Look it up, the number of characters will blow your mind.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It might be a clever way of getting some other characters screen time in semi-relevant fashion, but I question the intention in the first place. I rather have had more Karen screen time personally.

I don't think the Sengoku and Kanbaru development though was very good though. Particularly Sengoku. So it was almost like negative development to me.
The only reason you say that is because a lot of their line were cut out. One also needs to look at the bigger picture. The screen time Nadeko had in this season foreshadows a lot about her character. All I can say is sit tight and be patient.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

Since when were studios mandated to completely follow a source word for word in an adaption? Anime and light novels are different mediums. You have to adjust for the medium.
Shinbou once said that when he create an adaptation he does it so that even the original fans will like it. What better way is there to attract original fans than to follow the book word for word? Besides, he didn't even actually follow word for word. For example, the sibling fight was a lot more outrageous in the anime.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

The solution is to cut away character screen time. Nadeko's contribution to this arc for example was completely unnecessary and whatever information she did give Koyomi could have been given by some other character in some way.
No, that's not right. The information Nadeko gave to Araragi dealed with the curse that she got back in Snake. She was the only one that could have given it to him since she was the only middle schooler that he knew other than his sisters. There was no way they were going to tell him so Nadeko was the only one.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So the plot surrounds a character but we don't need to give that character a lot of development? C'mon now. It's just the sensible thing to do imo.

I don't think her development was particularly great in any case, and very little was given at all. She's better than Nadeko though. Nadeko is just a moe blob.
Once again, if this is what you think than you are going to have a REALLY tough time watching the rest of this series.
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Old 2012-02-22, 01:28   Link #110
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Kinda anti-climatic but I actually liked that component of it.
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Old 2012-02-22, 06:17   Link #111
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Sorry if I go back to an old argument but I still don't understand Kaiki's character.
He says that he is like someone who doesn't believe in ghosts but still fears them. Fine.
But then he makes some very specific remarks:
1. He feels something threatening hiding in Koyomi's shadow;
2. He understands that Koyomi took half of Karen's illness (this part was visually reinforced by Koyomi's shadow taking the shape of a bee).

He shouldn't be able to perceive those things.

The second contradiction is about the illness. If it's just the result of hypnosis, how can Koyomi share half of it through a kiss? It doesn't make sense!
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Old 2012-02-22, 06:40   Link #112
omimon
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Sorry if I go back to an old argument but I still don't understand Kaiki's character.
He says that he is like someone who doesn't believe in ghosts but still fears them. Fine.
But then he makes some very specific remarks:
1. He feels something threatening hiding in Koyomi's shadow;
2. He understands that Koyomi took half of Karen's illness (this part was visually reinforced by Koyomi's shadow taking the shape of a bee).

He shouldn't be able to perceive those things.

The second contradiction is about the illness. If it's just the result of hypnosis, how can Koyomi share half of it through a kiss? It doesn't make sense!
Kaiki doesn't believe in them but he knows about the existence of them.

What Koyomi did with Karen was suck out the effect of the hypnosis.
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Old 2012-02-22, 06:46   Link #113
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Actually, if I may add to Shikijin and Ominon's points versus any hate, criticism, or boredom which I choose not to read in detail (because of time o_O). One of the main uniqueness in Monogataris is in the dialogue. But unfortunately, things may seem lackluster to some because quite a lot of the language quirks, puns, and other creative use of words, which sometimes hold a deeper meaning or relevance get lost in the translations. It's not a criticism to the translators as this is pretty inevitable for this series. It is thus quite impossible to attain 100% enjoyment of the show if you don't know the language, quite unfortunately. I know I probably didn't get everything even when I've read the source.
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Old 2012-02-22, 07:39   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Sorry if I go back to an old argument but I still don't understand Kaiki's character.
He says that he is like someone who doesn't believe in ghosts but still fears them. Fine.
But then he makes some very specific remarks:
1. He feels something threatening hiding in Koyomi's shadow;
2. He understands that Koyomi took half of Karen's illness (this part was visually reinforced by Koyomi's shadow taking the shape of a bee).

He shouldn't be able to perceive those things.

The second contradiction is about the illness. If it's just the result of hypnosis, how can Koyomi share half of it through a kiss? It doesn't make sense!
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Kaiki doesn't believe in them but he knows about the existence of them.
Let me add here, that even IRL a lot of people do not believe in supernatural but are afraid or at least weary of their consequences (black cats, broken mirrors, numbers 4 or 13, etc). In Kaiki's case he could see that Hitagi had no weight, but was reluctant to attribute it to a ghost, god, or whatever else... and quite frankly he does not even care about the cause, as long as he can profit from the effect.

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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
What Koyomi did with Karen was suck out the effect of the hypnosis.
It's not all that different from what Shinobu told him. She could only "eat" the effect, but not the cause.

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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Actually, if I may add to Shikijin and Ominon's points versus any hate, criticism, or boredom which I choose not to read in detail (because of time o_O).
Amen

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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
One of the main uniqueness in Monogataris is in the dialogue. But unfortunately, things may seem lackluster to some because quite a lot of the language quirks, puns, and other creative use of words, which sometimes hold a deeper meaning or relevance get lost in the translations. It's not a criticism to the translators as this is pretty inevitable for this series. It is thus quite impossible to attain 100% enjoyment of the show if you don't know the language, quite unfortunately. I know I probably didn't get everything even when I've read the source.
That is very true, while reading Kizumonogatari, I can hardly think of a way to capture all the jokes, and references, in an anime... let alone make a localized translation that could manage this
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Old 2012-02-22, 08:02   Link #115
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Then maybe it shouldn't of introduced so many characters in the first place.
The number of characters Nisio introduced is about right. If you take a movie lasting 2 hours, usually the number of characters, counting even the secondary ones, is about 9/10. Then again, Karen Bee is kind of an exception for the reason I mentioned.
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Kurt Vonnegut (If you don't know him look him up, famous writer), once said and I quote:

"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia."
This from the eight rules for writing a short story. You forgot rule 2: "Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for."

Seriously, it is naive to take any advice literally without its context. What Vonnegut said is just his idea of style, not a universal truth. And he wasn't talk about writing a series of novels. AFAIK he never wrote one.

To use another example, Vonnegut also states:

"Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages."

Can you see why this wouldn't work in a mystery novel? Would it make sense to reveal the name of the assassin in the first page of the book?
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It might be a clever way of getting some other characters screen time in semi-relevant fashion, but I question the intention in the first place. I rather have had more Karen screen time personally.
It's not necessary. The story is about Araragi, not her. She is a backdrop.
Quote:
Since when were studios mandated to completely follow a source word for word in an adaption? Anime and light novels are different mediums. You have to adjust for the medium.
It is impossible to do. On one hand, changing the story would be too difficult for an average scriptwriter. On the other hand, the series continues after Nise, so if Shaft is not faithful it will have problems explaining things in the adaptation of the next books. There is more in Nise that meets the eye.
Quote:
The solution is to cut away character screen time. Nadeko's contribution to this arc for example was completely unnecessary and whatever information she did give Koyomi could have been given by some other character in some way.
It's not just a matter of information. We were offered the possibility to see what Araragi's day looks like (though it wasn't his average day).

Even if we cut that part of Sengoku and Kanbaru, we would be left with the problem of killing time. How did Araragi spend the day? He must receive the phone call from Hanekawa because Hanekawa is helping Karen that day, which is a plot point. He also must talk with Tsukihi to foreshadow his fight with Karen. Hachikuji also raises the important plot point of whether mentioning kaii to his sisters. In short, the more you rearrange things, the more things you have to rearrange. Not to mention things I can't even allude to because it would be spoiler

The real problem with the part of Nadeko is that they cut Araragi's inner thoughts which was what made the scenes funny. The problem is just the adaptation.
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So the plot surrounds a character but we don't need to give that character a lot of development? C'mon now. It's just the sensible thing to do imo.
This is a serialization. You have to leave something for the following stories. You don't have to tell everything about a character in the book it appears. In fact, you shouldn't.

Then again, the confrontation between Araragi and Karen involved their own personal feelings, their idea of justice, and their plans on the best thing to do. It is enough stuff for a story.
Quote:
Nadeko is just a moe blob.
A jail bait. Nadeko is a jail bait. Learn the difference. Moe is when you see the character as a daughter. Ero != moe. The characters of Bakemonogatari are too eroticized, so they are not really moe.
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
He shouldn't be able to perceive those things.
You forgot he even sensed the aura of Kanbaru's monkey paw.

Let's say he has the abilities of an occultist, but he views himself as a swindler. In the end all he cares about is money. In his trade he uses even kaii which he knows to be fake. The important thing is that the other person sees them as real. You could say this is a metaphor of himself. He is a fake, but he can be more real than the real.

In fact, even the snake curse Nadeko suffered from was his doing. Even though the curse activated only because of Nadeko, it was as effective as a curse as it gets.
Quote:
The second contradiction is about the illness. If it's just the result of hypnosis, how can Koyomi share half of it through a kiss? It doesn't make sense!
Even though it was the result of hypnosis, the symptoms were real. Karen's body was really hot. It was not just a mental thing.

Then again, even with a real virus what Araragi did should have been impossible It's just that in Japan there is a superstition that you can cure a cold by infecting another person with it.
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Old 2012-02-22, 16:38   Link #116
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For the record, there's something called a Somatoform disorder where you get physical symptoms from a disease that doesn't exist. It's not implausible that he could convince someone they had a fever and it'd actually happen. It's also not implausible that it could be weakened by Karen believing that she shared it.
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Old 2012-02-22, 20:59   Link #117
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Why did Araragi wake up in his house?
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Old 2012-02-22, 22:29   Link #118
omimon
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Why did Araragi wake up in his house?
Because he slept there?
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Old 2012-02-23, 06:23   Link #119
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Then again, even with a real virus what Araragi did should have been impossible It's just that in Japan there is a superstition that you can cure a cold by infecting another person with it.
Obviously that was just an excuse to write an incestuous kiss.
Defend Nisio as much as you want but he is a damn pervert.
Kanbaru stripping was completely unnecessary to the story, the same goes for the sisters sleeping naked.
Someone even said that Nisemonogatari is Nisio Isin masturbating with a pen.
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Old 2012-02-23, 06:31   Link #120
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Defend Nisio as much as you want but he is a damn pervert.
No need to "defend" anyone who's accused of being a pervert

Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-23 at 10:51.
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