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View Poll Results: Guilty Crown - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 33 26.61%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 16.94%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 12.90%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 19.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 10 8.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 4.84%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.81%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.61%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 3 2.42%
1 out of 10 : Painful 8 6.45%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-22, 13:29   Link #481
Xaturas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudinh View Post
Mana wasnt into Shu, the crystal infected her mind into that way. when mana kiss shu and and ask shu to marry her, u can see the crystal on the side of her face. she only hurt gai cause gai was going to tell shu that mana has been infected. mana love her brother well because he her bother and the crystal probably push her feeling beyond a little and make her mind think she really have love feeling for him.
So you are in the Mana Gai camp or what?
Because she was all over Shu before LC, like it or not it wasn't crystals. Crystals only made her go berserk after Shu pushed her away.
As for Gai he was a toy for Mana nothing more nothing less.
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:40   Link #482
Trudinh
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Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
So you are in the Mana Gai camp or what?
Because she was all over Shu before LC, like it or not it wasn't crystals. Crystals only made her go berserk after Shu pushed her away.
As for Gai he was a toy for Mana nothing more nothingless.
so your saying mana was a incest freak to begin with? when mana ask shu if he get lonely if she get marry. the crystal was already infected her. i dont think she an incest freak, i think crystal infected her mind. and i dont think she loved gai either. she just a caring portected sister.
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:44   Link #483
Xaturas
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Originally Posted by Trudinh View Post
so your saying mana was a incest freak to begin with? when mana ask shu if he get lonely if she get marry. the crystal was already infected her. i dont think she an incest freak, i think crystal infected her mind. and i dont think she loved gai either. she just a caring portected sister.
Yes I'm saying that Mana was into Shu. Like it or not.

Now the point is was Shu and Mana blood related.
Considering how Haruka treat Shu like shit, and Mana advances on Shu, you can be 50-50 sure that they have no relation whatsoever, besides living together.

And just because you call her freak, doesn't change the fact how she felt, unless it will be proven otherwise she was in love with Shu.
Also don't even bring the Crystal mind rape infection, because Mana was a special case, she was controling crystals, not crystals controling her. And most of the infected people were still *themselves* untill the breaking point. You don't see Souta and F ranks going crazy murder shit, they still behave like normal people. And they were infected.
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:44   Link #484
Soji
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Trudinh@ That if you think they really are Sister and brother(blood related) .But I don't think so. Then again ...it seem to me she was alway into shu .

Xaturas say this better than me..I agree with you here.

Last edited by Soji; 2012-02-22 at 13:55.
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:56   Link #485
Trudinh
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well she seen like a normal loving sister to me it kinda look like the crystal making her go mad
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:57   Link #486
Xaturas
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Manga?
As far as I remember there will be a Visual novel. With DIFFERENT main character and girl.
Maybe some background info at best, but thats probably it.
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:58   Link #487
Soji
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Trudinh@ What manga O_O the only manga that I know tell the same story of the anime . and the ln( the game) will be the story about two other characters.
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Old 2012-02-22, 14:01   Link #488
Trudinh
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oh i though there a manga or light novel that tell the event happen during lost christmas

well unless there is proof that mana wasnt blood relative to shu, then i still think mana wasnt really inlove with shu. shu mother isnt that close to shu, and haruka dosnt treat him like sht? beside the fact that she control the ghost unit and was there when gai was revive. i think she has her reason

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-02-23 at 22:37.
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Old 2012-02-22, 14:13   Link #489
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Trudinh@ Her reason? I don't care her reason ._. She seem pretty fine if shu die. Or you think that cut off one arm you can survive without that some one heal you're wound?.
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Old 2012-02-22, 16:13   Link #490
Xaturas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudinh View Post
well unless there is proof that mana wasnt blood relative to shu, then i still think mana wasnt really inlove with shu. shu mother isnt that close to shu, and haruka dosnt treat him like sht? beside the fact that she control the ghost unit and was there when gai was revive. i think she has her reason
Yeah because you can justify Haruka doing what she does to her Flesh and Blood?
Forgive me but unless she is Gendo from NGE then I don't know how she can so easily do to her son what she does. And all her concerns are that "he will not forgive me for what I do" Jesus Christ woman how can you yourself even do something like that.
True mother would rather shoot herself in the head than do the shit she does to her supposed *child*.
If it wasn't for Shu's luck and plot armor, Haruka's working would already kill him a dozen times. Its not like Ghost Units are shooting blanks at him.
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Old 2012-02-22, 18:17   Link #491
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Ditto what Sinestra and Trudinh have stated, while adding something:
Inori was obviously shown confused about her own actions against Arisa, and Shu has realized it, considering his reaction.
Thus, it is quite obvious Inori is subject to something "weird", and it doesn't take much for anyone to suspect aftereffect with Mana or whatnot.

Even without suspecting Mana in the equation, it is crystal clear Inori didn't want to do it, but "something" made her to do that. So, adding the fact she is his only true ally and confident, there is no way he would punish her, let alone "not doing it just because she is pretty".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudinh View Post
Inori is the only one there that he can trust,
he in a place where he can trust no one since they all hated him and there 1 cute girl who is the only one he can trust, of course he not going to punish her. and he has a crush on her. who the hell punish their lover.

So you're saying on top of being a terrible leader Shu is also a hypocrite who is okay with harshly enforcing the rules, that he made/agreed to, if his followers are involved but when Inori is involved it's totally okay? Also Shu shunned all the people who tried to help him to put on this tyrant facade it's his own fault it turned out like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trudinh View Post
Yahiro forgive shu for what happen to his brother a while back in ep 12 i think or 11. but still shu still hasnt forgive yahiro for lieing to him about hare death and betray him back at the train station and also shu think yahiro is just using shu.
So why did he TRUST Yahiro with his regime as king? Why did he make Yahiro do all the decisions and planning if he still had a grudge against him from them. Also Shu understood why Yahiro did what he had to do and it looked like they reconciled in episode 11, and Shu was able to talk with him about the voids in 13 as well. I'm not even sure if the writers even care anymore because Shu was entirely out of line during that scene

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
She may been reluctant to do anything about Inori because honestly she is and was his only shoulder and pillar since Hare died.
Shu shunned people who tried to snap him out of it, he only chose Inori because she's a doll that wouldn't talk back to him or try to help him, she's only there for his self-esteem.
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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Shu would only show weakness and bare his heart in front of Inori but he was stone cold in front of the other students.
And look what happened

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
It would be hard for anyone to remove someone that they consider their only saving grace. It could also be possible that he thought if he kept Inori near him he could watch and control her actions so it wouldn't happen again.
That obviously wasn't the case since he missed out on her "Do you want me" line in episode 16 and it didn't come to light what she had already done until epiosde 17



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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Remember Shu is at his strongest when he feels he is protecting people he is able to do the things that made him seems evil because he felt for the greater good he had be so in order to keep everyone alive.
Please, he was just venting out his frustration over Hare's lost. That scene proves that he had gone off the deep end and it wasn't about being an ass for the greater good
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Old 2012-02-22, 22:01   Link #492
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Originally Posted by ChocoBar9 View Post
So you're saying on top of being a terrible leader Shu is also a hypocrite who is okay with harshly enforcing the rules, that he made/agreed to, if his followers are involved but when Inori is involved it's totally okay? Also Shu shunned all the people who tried to help him to put on this tyrant facade it's his own fault it turned out like that
From a morale perspective your right, but it doesn't take a genius to realize the incredible asset you have in front of you. Inori's void is exceptionally powerful. None of what he has done would of been possible without her void. Also this is his regime, his word is law.

What he did was absolutely necessary, there literally was no other way he could ensure the majorities survival. If he kept putting up the nice guy act, the rest of the school would've split up, everyone would follow whoever they thought could save them. Everyone would part ways fight against each other, and in the end they'd all lay dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocoBar9 View Post
So why did he TRUST Yahiro with his regime as king? Why did he make Yahiro do all the decisions and planning if he still had a grudge against him from them. Also Shu understood why Yahiro did what he had to do and it looked like they reconciled in episode 11, and Shu was able to talk with him about the voids in 13 as well. I'm not even sure if the writers even care anymore because Shu was entirely out of line during that scene
No he wasn't, he's in love with her after all, why would he let him punish his girl?

He also didn't know why Hare and the girl died until recently. Yahiro was using Shu to fill his own agenda, and it would've kept going unless that girl died in front of him. He still realizes that using the voids is necessary to they're survival, although Yahiro was lying and covering everything up.

This time it's worse because everyone's death due to a broken void was framed on Shu, even though it's Yahiro's fault. Not only that but instead of clearing everything up, he joins Arisa's rebellion instead.

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Originally Posted by ChocoBar9 View Post
Shu shunned people who tried to snap him out of it, he only chose Inori because she's a doll that wouldn't talk back to him or try to help him, she's only there for his self-esteem.
This isn't the Shu from 5 episodes ago, he doesn't care about his social standing, or anyone's opinion either. After Hare's death he matured, and grew as a character considerably. She's the only one he can open up to, and the only one that accepts him for who he is.


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Originally Posted by ChocoBar9 View Post
Please, he was just venting out his frustration over Hare's lost. That scene proves that he had gone off the deep end and it wasn't about being an ass for the greater good
Hare was the turning point. Whether he did this out of rage or depression isn't the question. But rather, did it work? did they cross through? Did the majority survive? Answer is they did, whether he handled the situation wrong, doesn't matter, he led them across while doing most of the effort himself. That's all that matters, he fulfilled his temporary role while being betrayed by the entire school over a misunderstanding. Now everyone hates him because of Yahiro.
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Old 2012-02-23, 07:51   Link #493
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From a morale perspective your right, but it doesn't take a genius to realize the incredible asset you have in front of you. Inori's void is exceptionally powerful.
Irrelevant. You're just proving that he was a shitty leader that what he did through his own accord and not for what's best for the group, by that logic why did Shu need followers if had just had Inori?

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Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
None of what he has done would of been possible without her void. Also this is his regime, his word is law.
Except Shu didn't actually do any leading and above all else he ruled through fear, the fact that he made an exception for Inori, and not for the reasons you listed, just makes it more clear that he had what was coming for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
What he did was absolutely necessary, there literally was no other way he could ensure the majorities survival. If he kept putting up the nice guy act, the rest of the school would've split up, everyone would follow whoever they thought could save them. Everyone would part ways fight against each other, and in the end they'd all lay dead.
Wrong, the show goes out of it's way to tell you what Shu was doing was wrong, he himself stated what he was doing was wrong and foreshadowed exactly what would have happened after his reign was over, there's nothing that implies that if Shu wasn't a tyrant things wouldn't work out infact if he wasn't a tyrant things wouldn't have ended up like they did and more lives would have been saved. If you have a narrow minded view you're obviously gonna agree with Shu

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Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
No he wasn't, he's in love with her after all, why would he let him punish his girl?
Again, irrelevant. People who defend Shu's reign stating that he had to hide his emotions for the greater good but him making an exception for Inori shits on your argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
He also didn't know why Hare and the girl died until recently. Yahiro was using Shu to fill his own agenda, and it would've kept going unless that girl died in front of him. He still realizes that using the voids is necessary to they're survival, although Yahiro was lying and covering everything up.
No, he literally thought it was for the best the entire time and hold no grudge against Shu the latest episode proves that he was in the right in that situation and Shu was off the deep end. And he lied to prevent panic among the student body, see what happened when the word of void breaking went public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
This time it's worse because everyone's death due to a broken void was framed on Shu, even though it's Yahiro's fault. Not only that but instead of clearing everything up, he joins Arisa's rebellion instead.
What? It wasn't Yahiro's fault infact they both agreed that it would have been for the best NOT to tell anyone about it, I can't blame either of them for it for the sheer fact that Shu didn't know beforehand and this far into his reign people would have rioted though it was out of line for him to threaten the nightwatch by destroying his void. Also there's nothing that states that he join Arisa's rebellion nor that he knew what was going on, he's not even there during the scene and the last time we saw him he was talking to Kanon



Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
This isn't the Shu from 5 episodes ago, he doesn't care about his social standing, or anyone's opinion either. After Hare's death he matured, and grew as a character considerably. She's the only one he can open up to, and the only one that accepts him for who he is.
He did not AND THE CHARACTERS CALL HIM OUT ON THIS AS WELL, he himself admits that he does not like the tyrant facade to Inori in the latest episode as well, the Yahiro scene or even the Ayase scene should have paint a picture of Shu's state of mind at the time if the previous episode didn't, Inori wasn't helping him through anything, but even she realize that Shu wasn't himself, this is probably one of the main reasons I don't blame Argo and Tsugumi for high-tailing it out of there during the betrayal.




Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
Hare was the turning point. Whether he did this out of rage or depression isn't the question. But rather, did it work? did they cross through? Did the majority survive?
Did he get betrayal? Why is his right arm gone? And did nobody come to defend him during the betrayal? Also they were using him as much as he used them so it's a fair trade



Quote:
Originally Posted by syke123 View Post
Answer is they did, whether he handled the situation wrong, doesn't matter, he led them across while doing most of the effort himself. That's all that matters, he fulfilled his temporary role while being betrayed by the entire school over a misunderstanding. Now everyone hates him because of Yahiro.
Of course it all matters because it's the reason why they betrayed him and it wasn't "misunderstanding" because there was low morale due to his tyrannical reign and the majority of the student body hated him because he made their lives a living hell for no apparent reason. Also Yahiro wasn't the one who told Shu to be an ass and Shu could have said no to any of Yahiro's plans if he wanted
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Old 2012-02-23, 08:25   Link #494
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Shu was one of the nicest tyrants i have ever seen to tell the truth .
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Old 2012-02-23, 09:05   Link #495
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he was a little too nice when he first became king.
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Old 2012-02-23, 09:07   Link #496
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[QUOTE=ChocoBar9;4019957]


Quote:
Shu shunned people who tried to snap him out of it, he only chose Inori because she's a doll that wouldn't talk back to him or try to help him, she's only there for his self-esteem.
You are trivializing his emotional state by using your own sense judgment instead of using the context of the story. The only time others tried to comfort Shu was right after the incident with Hare. When he was in a Rage you can not calm someone who is in a blind rage and so overcome with grief they close their hearts off. It takes time. Inori in the past was more doll like, have yo not noticed the change in her personality as time has progressed. Ironically it seems the more emotion she develops the more Mana comes out. Inori DOES help Shu by soothing his mind by allowing him to vent his frustrations and say aloud what he can not say in front of others. "She is only there for his self esteem wrong" wrong again mate she is there because she choose to be, she is there because she cares for Shu and yes she is good for his self esteem and its needed for reasons i should not need to explain

Quote:
And look what happened
Yes what happen was he was deposed and screwed over but did majority of the students get out of the quarantine area..Yes they did. The Exodus would have succeeded 100% if Arisa had not planned a coup d'état. His plan was working and he made himself the bad guy in order to save everyone. Had he not taken the actions that he did no matter how terrible he might have looked no would have survived the school would have descended into chaos with students killing each other over food and other supplies. Shu kept order even if it was an uneasy one. One again trivializing the situation does not prove your point. Theres more to the world than black and white.


Quote:
Please, he was just venting out his frustration over Hare's lost. That scene proves that he had gone off the deep end and it wasn't about being an ass for the greater good]
Why did yo specify that particular scene but leave out the countless other times when Shu drew strength to do things he did not want to do because others were trouble, Shu does gain strength from protecting others and usually that what moves him to act more than anything. I never mention that particular scene and you are right that was not about protecting that was about avenging and he was angry. What makes you think you would be so calm and collected if you watched someone you cared about killed before your eyes, if you can understand the depth of that scene other than the violence than you are missing the true meaning in this story.


You are basing your arguments on black and white facts when Guilty Crown is anything but a black and white story. The undertones of right and wrong and skewed on purpose you are only taking exactly what you see instead of trying to look deeper. You stated Shu was a crappy leader ok fine even i agree that Shu is not leader by nature but who made him the leader? The student body and Yahiro forced the role on him and even though he did not want to do it he did it anyway. Shu adopted the policy that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and despite all the crap that happen afterward his "WORKED" it was proven it worked because majority of the students escaped. History judges leaders later for their actions. Should a leader show weakness in public no a leader should be confident in the public eye at all times. But behind closed doors a leader needs someone to talk to, to ease their mind not to confirm if they are making the right or wrong decisions but just simply to be there. Presidents usually have their wives or a close ally (like Inori). I have spoken about this on several forums and no one has been able to give a good answer as to what they would have done differently in Shu's situation. Its easy to judge when you dont have to call the shots when you are not responsible for lives. Guilty Crown shows that sometimes you have to be the bad guy for accomplish something good for all.

You catch more flies with honey try not being so aggressive with forum members while trying to prove your point. I myself hardly care but how you have reacted to several members post can be deemed rude.
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Last edited by Sinestra; 2012-02-23 at 09:30.
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Old 2012-02-23, 10:02   Link #497
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when is episode 18 subbed going to be out?
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Old 2012-02-23, 10:04   Link #498
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when is episode 18 subbed going to be out?
You will probably start seeing it pop up later today or early tomorrow
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Old 2012-02-23, 10:17   Link #499
ChocoBar9
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You are trivializing his emotional state by using your own sense judgment instead of using the context of the story.
The context of the story is saying that Shu is wrong and that the characters that were trying to help him weren't wrong in calling him out. The story pull no punches in showing that Shu was losing his mind and wouldn't listen to anyone


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
The only time others tried to comfort Shu was right after the incident with Hare.
We do not know how much time past since Hare's death after episode 15 and generally that can only support my claim that he saw comfort in Inori because she wouldn't talk back to him or make him snap out of it


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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
When he was in a Rage you can not calm someone who is in a blind rage and so overcome with grief they close their hearts off. It takes time. Inori in the past was more doll like, have yo not noticed the change in her personality as time has progressed.
There's been no change to speak of, you're either watching a different show where Inori actually has had development worth a damn or deluding yourself otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Ironically it seems the more emotion she develops the more Mana comes out. Inori DOES help Shu by soothing his mind by allowing him to vent his frustrations and say aloud what he can not say in front of others. "She is only there for his self esteem wrong" wrong again mate she is there because she choose to be, she is there because she cares for Shu and yes she is good for his self esteem and its needed for reasons i should not need to explain
Re-read my post, she is there for Shu's self-esteem, she is not trying to get Shu put of his funk, what she feels is irrelevant to what I was trying to convey. She is no different from a doll Shu needs to talk to help him feel better about himself without criticizing his actions also "she is good for his self esteem?" the guy went crazy for chrissakes

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Yes what happen was he was deposed and screwed over but did majority of the students get out of the quarantine area..Yes they did.
Irrelevant. It doesn't undermine how he treated and threaten his followers, once again highlighted in the episode by Yahiro of all people when he brought up Gai.

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
The Exodus would have succeeded 100% if Arisa had not planned a coup d'état.
And how did Arisa's plan come about? Well?



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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
His plan was working and he made himself the bad guy in order to save everyone.
Nope, he was taking out his own frustration and uselessness at Hare's deaths at his followers. And the only reason why his half assed plan worked was because he used them as meatshields


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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Had he not taken the actions that he did no matter how terrible he might have looked no would have survived the school would have descended into chaos with students killing each other over food and other supplies.
There's nothing in the show that states that Shu becoming a tyrant was the only solution because before Hare's death he was in the mist of finding another way other than the void rank system, also the school DID descend into chaos through his rule thanks in part to Inori attack Arisa which lead to the spreading of voids breaking causes death


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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Shu kept order even if it was an uneasy one. One again trivializing the situation does not prove your point. Theres more to the world than black and white.
He did not, if he did keep order than he wouldn't have gotten betrayed. You're looking at it too narrow mindedly forgetting the fact that the show is telling you WHAT SHU IS DOING IS WRONG and even Shu ADMITS WHAT HE'S DOING IS WRONG and that HE'LL GET A PENALTY FOR HIS SINS. Are you this dense?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Why did yo specify that particular scene but leave out the countless other times when Shu drew strength to do things he did not want to do because others were trouble
Because it should he was off his rocker and that was the scene that was being implanted on, you were the one that brought up all this "protecting" crap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Shu does gain strength from protecting others and usually that what moves him to act more than anything. I never mention that particular scene and you are right that was not about protecting that was about avenging and he was angry.
Your entire argument falls apart because during those scenes of protecting people and those scenes where he grew strength Shu wasn't a tyrant, there was obviously something wrong with him mentality in comparison to everything else before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
What makes you think you would be so calm and collected if you watched someone you cared about killed before your eyes, if you can understand the depth of that scene other than the violence than you are missing the true meaning in this story.
And what makes you think that people can complete change their mindset 5 minutes after someone they cared about died pointless? You're the only person missing something because the show never not even once made Shu seem sympathetic during those scenes

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
You are basing your arguments on black and white facts when Guilty Crown is anything but a black and white story.
You're the only one basing your arguments as black and whit since you're defending Shu's actions even when he didn't think they were good at all, what does that say about you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
The undertones of right and wrong and skewed on purpose you are only taking exactly what you see instead of trying to look deeper. You stated Shu was a crappy leader ok fine even i agree that Shu is not leader by nature but who made him the leader? The student body and Yahiro forced the role on him and even though he did not want to do it he did it anyway.
1- The people who elected Shu wasn't the tyrant Shu
2- Yahiro thought it was for the best
3-Shu should have declined

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
Shu adopted the policy that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and despite all the crap that happen afterward his "WORKED" it was proven it worked because majority of the students escaped.
And your argument falls completely when he made an exception for Inori WHEN SHE BROKE IT but went off on someone for taking his eye off a second.

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
History judges leaders later for their actions. Should a leader show weakness in public no a leader should be confident in the public eye at all times.
This is wrong, Julius Ceaser is remembered for his betrayal and not for his positive actions he did for the empire, Louis the XVI is remembered for his beheading and not for his positive actions. Even Richard Nixson is remembered for his business at waterloo and his impeachment not for the fact that he opened relationships in China for the US. A leader is only as good as his followers.

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Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
But behind closed doors a leader needs someone to talk to, to ease their mind not to confirm if they are making the right or wrong decisions but just simply to be there. Presidents usually have their wives or a close ally (like Inori). I have spoken about this on several forums and no one has been able to give a good answer as to what they would have done differently in Shu's situation. Its easy to judge when you dont have to call the shots when you are not responsible for lives. Guilty Crown shows that sometimes you have to be the bad guy for accomplish something good for all.
The main problem with your entire stance is that the show is portraying Shu's actions negatively instead, it's not even moral gray either which is why Gai is constantly brought up as a counter to all of Shu's actions. You're not really suppose to sympathize with him because he he's literally going off the deep end, the show never points into light that being a tyrant was the ONLY solution either Shu CHOSE to be one under his own powerlessness and it failed because now his face on in a puddle of his own blood with his followers gunning to kill him. I mean if you felt nothing for the scene where Souta, the only person who would have defended Shu through all of this, pushed him down the pit due to his state and didn't think that was a sign of harsh irony then I can't really say anything else. The problem with most Shu supporters is that they see the results not the actions and blatantly ignore the show's message because they can't stop projecting. It seems like you don't quite understand this show as much as you imply.
ChocoBar9 is offline  
Old 2012-02-23, 12:37   Link #500
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Originally Posted by ChocoBar9 View Post


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The context of the story is saying that Shu is wrong and that the characters that were trying to help him weren't wrong in calling him out. The story pull no punches in showing that Shu was losing his mind and wouldn't listen to anyone
The story does not "say" Shu is wrong, the story instead tries to portray what happens to human morality during times of crises. The story showed Shu not losing him mind but shedding his naivete and deciding it was best to close of your heart and make hard decisions. It was obvious that he felt Hare's death was partly his fault for being to naive or as others have putted being too nice. It comes down to ones sense of morality. I do not feel Shu was completely wrong in some of his action nor do i think the students were wrong either.

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We do not know how much time past since Hare's death after episode 15 and generally that can only support my claim that he saw comfort in Inori because she wouldn't talk back to him or make him snap out of it
No he saw comfort in Inori like he always has because she is closest friend and confidant since Hare died. Inori has asked Shu several times "what do you want to do?" the reason being is that Shu always does what others want him to do. Her role in this story is not to tell Shu what to do. Her role with Shu is to let him make his own decisions and be there to speak with him, to hold him to let him vent when he needs it. Hare role was more of what you described not Inori's.


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There's been no change to speak of, you're either watching a different show where Inori actually has had development worth a damn or deluding yourself otherwise.
The changes are so apparent i cant believe you can see them as other members have commented on it for the past 4 episodes. Her change has been slow but her personality and level of emotion has changed. I am not deluding myself in the slightest its obvious.


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Re-read my post, she is there for Shu's self-esteem, she is not trying to get Shu put of his funk, what she feels is irrelevant to what I was trying to convey. She is no different from a doll Shu needs to talk to help him feel better about himself without criticizing his actions also "she is good for his self esteem?" the guy went crazy for chrissakes
See above post that is not her role although she has started to change emotionally she is no where near the level of emotional support that Hare was. rolling your eyes at me like a child does not change the fact.


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Irrelevant. It doesn't undermine how he treated and threaten his followers, once again highlighted in the episode by Yahiro of all people when he brought up Gai.
A leader of stone cold action who holds a iron fist. No one is stating that Shu treated his followers like gold. He was harsh because he felt he had to be to keep order and ensure that everyone survived. The new Shu was cold and did not let emotions cloud his judgement which was a two way street he was decisive in his actions but it made him a tyrant. I have no doubt that if Shu did not take over the situation would have been even worse. Look at what happen when the GHQ leaked that Funeral Parlor has infiltrated the school. Everyone went berserk accusing each other of being in funeral parlor, several of the girl were almost raped. Now imagine food supplies and medicine starts running out. There would have been factions fighting and killing each other. Humans are ugly when their survival is at stake and they are in a panic. This part we will never agree on so i will stop here.


And how did Arisa's plan come about? Well?
Arisa had already shown that she was unhappy with that her position was taken away. However, the student body was ready to hang her out to dry because they felt she was not taken action, Yes she was afraid of what Inori did to her and she had every right too be. However, as stated by a previous member Inori basically had no clue what had happen the look of shock on her face said it all. It was obviously Mana that has reasserted herself in Inori's personality. However, Arisa and the student body lamented the actions taken by Shu but still used his method to escape in the end and went along with the plan. Like i said you dont start a revolution after using the same methods you were revolting against to achieve your goals. Some viewers feel Arisa was justified in her actions and maybe she was. But it does change the fact that her actions has actually created a larger problem on world scale.



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Nope, he was taking out his own frustration and uselessness at Hare's deaths at his followers. And the only reason why his half assed plan worked was because he used them as meatshields
Simplified at best and i wouldn't even use that phrasing to describe it although i feel that it was part of it. In this case of the term "meatshields" and coming from a military family i disagree. Each and every student who was on the front line was a solider. They knew the risk even after learning that if their voids broke they would die. You want freedom you fight for it because it will not be given to you. Do i feel sorry that so many young ones died i do but they knew the risks just like every solider on the front line knows he could be KIA at anytime. His plan was half assessed? from a tactical stand point his plan was pretty sound given what they had to work with and again maybe i measure the success of a mission different than you but overall the goal was achieved. Would i have done things a little different yes for one i would have made use Arisa's Void more. Again we wont agree so i wont go any further

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There's nothing in the show that states that Shu becoming a tyrant was the only solution because before Hare's death he was in the mist of finding another way other than the void rank system, also the school DID descend into chaos through his rule thanks in part to Inori attack Arisa which lead to the spreading of voids breaking causes death
Im not sure how you measure Chaos but to me that was not chaos there was order in the school even some of the student disagreed with Shu, they were not killing each other food or medicine. Remember not everyone disagreed with him not everyone took part in the revolt. The series does not state it because there is no need to state if there was another way because there was no time. Shu wanted to find another way but even before Hare's death he struggled to find a way. Hare's death changed his path completely and even if she had not died im not sure if Shu could have found another solution its something we will never know. However, what i stated was no one has been able to give a viable alternative to what happen on this forum, on any other iv been on

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He did not, if he did keep order than he wouldn't have gotten betrayed. You're looking at it too narrow mindedly forgetting the fact that the show is telling you WHAT SHU IS DOING IS WRONG and even Shu ADMITS WHAT HE'S DOING IS WRONG and that HE'LL GET A PENALTY FOR HIS SINS. Are you this dense?
1, Insult me one more time and this convo is done, I am not some teenager looking for a pissing match. i have no problem discussing the content of the series but i will not tolerate ruddiness on any level. If one chooses not to be an adult than i have no reason to discuss anything with them. Thats how i was raised that how my children are being raised. Be respectful

Again the show does not say Shu is wrong it is up to the viewer to decide if they think Shus actions are right or wrong. In my opinion there are too factors to consider right and wrong in this situation there was only survival. Shu monolog states he feels his sins will come back to claim him and Inori states the same. Shu thinks what he is doing is wrong but it is justified because he wants to save everyone and he is willing to bare all the pain all the hate if he can accomplish this goal. View or morality of what is right and what is wrong is different from person to person you and Shu view his actions as wrong. I view his actions as necessary evil for the greater good not right and not wrong its beyond that simplified explanation.



Because it should he was off his rocker and that was the scene that was being implanted on, you were the one that brought up all this "protecting" crap


Your entire argument falls apart because during those scenes of protecting people and those scenes where he grew strength Shu wasn't a tyrant, there was obviously something wrong with him mentality in comparison to everything else before.


And what makes you think that people can complete change their mindset 5 minutes after someone they cared about died pointless? You're the only person missing something because the show never not even once made Shu seem sympathetic during those scenes


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You're the only one basing your arguments as black and whit since you're defending Shu's actions even when he didn't think they were good at all, what does that say about you?



1- The people who elected Shu wasn't the tyrant Shu
2- Yahiro thought it was for the best
3-Shu should have declined
Again till you are responsible for others lives you will never know how it feels. Have you been responsible for others lives? I have been in combat and let me tell the weight of that responsibility is heavier than you could ever imagine, which is why i see Shu's point of view i never said i endorsed it. The way it changed Shu the fact that you think i am defending his actions show you have no concept of what i am trying to say. I am not sure if you are angry at heart or you are over aggressive for a reason you state that your arguments are not black in white when there is little room in them for an alternate view. Shu could not decline Shu has been shown to be a pushover before and this was in character. The people were electing someone who they thought could keep them alive no he was not a tyrant but highly doubt things would have been smoothing sailing anyway. The entire student body did not turn against Shu which means some still admired and thought what he was doing was their right decision to save lives, not saying I agree with it but that is the case.


In any case iv said what i had to say and it is futile to keep arguing over difference of opinion with no end in sight and i dont like character attacks being thrown at me over some as trivial as an anime. So i will agree to disagree and leave it at that
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