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Old 2012-02-22, 06:50   Link #3921
Javiersansano
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Originally Posted by Eeni View Post
Thanks, for some reason I thought she was researching this well before Duo's travels to Mars.


I have another question that I've been mauling over for a while...

Frozen Teardrop is establishing that the Wyvern (it's a gundam, right? Epyon is a gundam and it was supposed to have been designed from the Wyvern, right?) was created/ commissioned by Heero Politician and piloted by Kathrina(?)Peacecracft... I'm assuming at this point that it was Dr. J who actually built it god know where or with what money/backing (So help me if it's the Sanc Kingdom, I will SHANK a computer!). So where does this leave the Tallgeese? It was clearly being build at around the same time that Heero Politician was murdered and that seems to be well after the Wyvern saw action. Wasn't the Tallgeese supposed to be the model that all 5 gundams where derived from, in essence it was the first "gundam". And wasn't the Tallgeese created back in the day when MSs were starting to appear in the A.C. era?



Examples are plentiful, and like mentioned before, really crazy.

We have an 11 year old stealing a gundam and, having never had any training, much less touching a Mobile Suit, seems to be an ACE who can waste her enemies by playing some sort of Guitar Hero-like program in her gundam. At this point, why even bother training people to be pilots? Wait... Oud must have been younger then 11 when she first piloted a mobile suit, right?

People who have NO blood relation to one another look EXACTLY like former gundam pilots, even though the original 5 pilots all claim to not have any children of their own.

We have no idea what side the real Zechs is actually on.

Dorothy Catalonia ordered the hit on Relena for an unclear reason.

And much, MUCH more. Honestly, just skim through the whole of this thread and you'll get a pretty good idea.
Regarding Quatrine's ACE SKILLS, i recently recalled from the manga sidestories of Gundam Wing, that sometime before Operation M began, Quatre was a cliche spoiled rich boy, who was kinda bored of living (he thought he was a test tube child, and despised that fact)...there, he met the Maguanacs and Instructor H during an incident, in which he changed his outlook on life, and he piloted a Mobile Suit for the first time, being labeled a "natural"... he was probably 13 or 14 years old... so it doesn't sound too far-fetched that his "spare"/sister is talented enough to pilot a Mobile Suit (or Mars Suit), at the age of eleven

about the tallgesse... almost every mobile suit is derived from it (the Leo is directly derived from it)
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Old 2012-02-22, 08:17   Link #3922
Aldaeus
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Originally Posted by Eeni View Post
Thanks, for some reason I thought she was researching this well before Duo's travels to Mars.


I have another question that I've been mauling over for a while...

Frozen Teardrop is establishing that the Wyvern (it's a gundam, right? Epyon is a gundam and it was supposed to have been designed from the Wyvern, right?) was created/ commissioned by Heero Politician and piloted by Kathrina(?)Peacecracft... I'm assuming at this point that it was Dr. J who actually built it god know where or with what money/backing (So help me if it's the Sanc Kingdom, I will SHANK a computer!). So where does this leave the Tallgeese? It was clearly being build at around the same time that Heero Politician was murdered and that seems to be well after the Wyvern saw action. Wasn't the Tallgeese supposed to be the model that all 5 gundams where derived from, in essence it was the first "gundam". And wasn't the Tallgeese created back in the day when MSs were starting to appear in the A.C. era?

Wyvern is a mobile suit. They have "Implied" that it may look like the Epyon, or at least its MA mode looks like Epyon... However there is the statement from within the series itself that it was the Alliance that wished to create more "Humanoid" mobile suits. So the Wyvern probably would be the very first humanoid type mobile suit in the A.C. Which Dr. J built, Heero (Politician) requested, and Katrina piloted... most likely with misappropriated government funds from the colonies, or the Darlian family... If Dr. J had a hand in Wyvern, and Tallgeese's initial development there are chances that Tallgeese's development data may have come from Wyvern.
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Old 2012-02-22, 09:12   Link #3923
Javiersansano
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Originally Posted by Aldaeus View Post
Wyvern is a mobile suit. They have "Implied" that it may look like the Epyon, or at least its MA mode looks like Epyon... However there is the statement from within the series itself that it was the Alliance that wished to create more "Humanoid" mobile suits. So the Wyvern probably would be the very first humanoid type mobile suit in the A.C. Which Dr. J built, Heero (Politician) requested, and Katrina piloted... most likely with misappropriated government funds from the colonies, or the Darlian family... If Dr. J had a hand in Wyvern, and Tallgeese's initial development there are chances that Tallgeese's development data may have come from Wyvern.
why did Heero yui request for the Wyvern?
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Old 2012-02-22, 10:21   Link #3924
Faerie
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More importantly, why is Katrina piloting it? _ _' Isn't she supposed to be from Sanc? Oh god, there goes my sanity again.
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Old 2012-02-22, 10:44   Link #3925
Javiersansano
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
More importantly, why is Katrina piloting it? _ _' Isn't she supposed to be from Sanc? Oh god, there goes my sanity again.
because Sanc Kingdom is under attack, and under the impeding danger of a shot from a satelite cannon...however this only explains why the wyvern would be deployed... why Katrina is piloting it?... for plot's sake, and because of the peacecraft blood which also makes Zech do reckless things (I'm recalling tallgesse vs heavyarms)... also, because being the sanc kingdom, there's probably no worthy military force... on the other hand, maybe her time with heero yui guided her to the same conclusion relena got at the end of endless waltz, "peace is something that must be claimed by oneself".......

anyway, my bet goes for the plot's sake suggestion
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Old 2012-02-22, 11:01   Link #3926
Aldaeus
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Originally Posted by Javiersansano View Post
because Sanc Kingdom is under attack, and under the impeding danger of a shot from a satelite cannon...however this only explains why the wyvern would be deployed... why Katrina is piloting it?... for plot's sake, and because of the peacecraft blood which also makes Zech do reckless things (I'm recalling tallgesse vs heavyarms)... also, because being the sanc kingdom, there's probably no worthy military force... on the other hand, maybe her time with heero yui guided her to the same conclusion relena got at the end of endless waltz, "peace is something that must be claimed by oneself".......

anyway, my bet goes for the plot's sake suggestion
It wasn't a satellite cannon, it was a nuclear warhead.

Also back then the Peacecrafts weren't the pacifists they were in the series from the way things look and that the kingdom itself had a proper army at that time in the early AC 140's... That started with Katrina after she came to rule in the Sanc, and with her successors (Marticus Rex (Son in-law), and Relena (Granddaughter))... The Alliance was going to nuke Sanc to deal with a rebel army that was within the countries borders. (Very similar to the series...)

The Alliance wanted the rebels dealt with, Sanc was failing at doing so, so they planned to nuke them both to deal with it... Wyvern was deployed from the colonies, with Katrina piloting it. Sabrina (Katrina's sister) was visiting with the Wayridge family at the time of this in a neighboring country. Wyvern if I remember correctly from the summaries dealt with both sides by forcing them apart, and Heero (Politician) talked them down with negotiations. Marticus (Relena and Zechs's father) was a rebel captain at the time, and agreed with Heero's point of view.


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Originally Posted by Deacon Blues View Post
- This issue the timetable finally shifts back to the present time
- It turns out that the "Lightning Queen" is Katerina

- The rebel army is aware that Katerina obstructed a nuclear strike on the Sanc Kingdom, thus linking her to the military alliance.
- The King and Queen are released by her hands. In a matter of mere days she became known as the AC era's "Jean of Arc" after coming down to Earth.

- The main engine of Katerina's Wyvern was refit by a man called "Mike" who wore black glasses and a Hawaiian shirt that installed a super jammer by D.D. (the following Professor G perhaps).
- Captain Marticus Rex from the rebel army is posted as an observer of the battle for Katerina. He would later marry Katerina's daughter and become the King of the Sanc Kingfom. He's Milliardo and Relena's father.
- The Alliance Forces which was able to entrap all of the operation directions of the fleet by the EMP equipment she uses tries to restrict her movements through the Romefeller Foundation.
- However, the Alliance Forces scheme suffers a setback due to the death of Sabrina death while attending a meeting Romefeller Foundation meeting with Heero. She was supposed to be a substitute for Katerina.
- The night of the same day, the rebel forces, taking on the Alliance Forces 4th and 5th fleets, was victorious due to Katerina's achievements. The undefeated Earth Alliance Forces were defeated for the first time.

- The timetable returns to MC-0022 NEXT WINTER.
- Naina and Quaterine noticed Duo's pursuit and switch over their large high speed transport to auto pilot.
- Naina orders the Martian Federations 909th Special Autonomous Squadron "Merciless Fairies" to scramble via a telecomm unit.


- Naina's "Queen of Hearts, launching!" is in the next issue.
- The next issue: merciless faries vs Duo

I'd like to point out, gordol, that there is no mention of a mobile suit for Naina. It could be her callsign. I'm inclined to believe it as such given the <>.

Last edited by Aldaeus; 2012-02-22 at 16:37. Reason: Went back and found information
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Old 2012-02-22, 13:00   Link #3927
Faerie
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Ughh... that's just convenient, isn't it? I mean, not that I wouldn't have liked a less radical and more realistic Sanc in the series (essentially less absolute pacifism, more realism- in the sense of what Relena came to understand later), but now suddenly Sanc has only been pacifistic since roughly before Zechs&Relena's parent's came around thus making it not the tradition and history of their family or country, but just a conclusion their parents came to, after at least one of them was a rebel.
A rebel who married into a royal family.
A rebel who then became so radically pacifistic that his son felt so guilty about becoming a soldier that he was practically ironing his hands every day screaming "BAD DOBBY!" because his father wouldn't take up or allow any weapons in a country that hasn't even got an army... and all the while his dad wasn't an eternal fan of the concept, and the family has barely even been brought up with it when Katrina decided to stop piloting a Gundam and he himself just picked it up along the way, after he finished rebelling and put the guns down.

"because Sanc was under attack"- the very same Sanc which Relena refused to even allow to be defended because it would be against the teachings of their family which we were always told were some important, traditional influence.
Oh god, I'm starting to hate this novel.

edit: the problem is, I would've liked a Sanc that takes care of itself. I always wanted it to. But now I can't like it, because it's so against what we were led to believe in the series that it just seems so wrong >_<
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Old 2012-02-22, 14:57   Link #3928
Tendou Souji
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Relena did not refuse to allow Sanc to be defended. When she found out about the mobile suits Noin was hiding she asked Heero what he thought about it and he said that she couldn't sit around and do nothing like the leaders of the past. He told her defense was needed and she gave him and Noin permission to defend the Sanc Kingdom. You like tons of people seem to be remembering Wing wrong. When was the last time you watched it?
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Old 2012-02-22, 16:46   Link #3929
Faerie
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Originally Posted by Tendou Souji View Post
Relena did not refuse to allow Sanc to be defended. When she found out about the mobile suits Noin was hiding she asked Heero what he thought about it and he said that she couldn't sit around and do nothing like the leaders of the past. He told her defense was needed and she gave him and Noin permission to defend the Sanc Kingdom. You like tons of people seem to be remembering Wing wrong. When was the last time you watched it?
Actually, I believe she only sanctioned this afterwards, which is a big difference.

That said, even if we did remember this wrong, it wouldn't change anything about how weird this bit of FT is.
As you pointed out yourself "she couldn't sit around and do nothing like the leaders of the past"- according to FT that is not what the "leaders of the past" have been doing.

P.S: Sorry, maybe you didn't mean any offence but I dislike when people go "when did you last see this?" etc as if this was bioscience not a TV show.
Unnecessary statements like that... give a sort of negative vibe to a conversation
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Old 2012-02-22, 17:30   Link #3930
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The fact that Relena allowed it to happen is the point. She wasn't against it at all. She was just confused as to who she was and what she should do. Leaders of the past can easily be referring to Relena's father and the people tied to him who let the Sanc Kingdom fall which isn't contradicted by Frozen Teardrop iirc. I only asked when was the last time you watched it because many people who talk down about Wing get things completely wrong because they haven't watched since the Toonami days. The amount of incorrect information that gets posted across the internet is sickening. Especially when it is treated as fact.
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Old 2012-02-22, 19:11   Link #3931
Eeni
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Originally Posted by Javiersansano View Post
Regarding Quatrine's ACE SKILLS, i recently recalled from the manga sidestories of Gundam Wing, that sometime before Operation M began, Quatre was a cliche spoiled rich boy, who was kinda bored of living (he thought he was a test tube child, and despised that fact)...there, he met the Maguanacs and Instructor H during an incident, in which he changed his outlook on life, and he piloted a Mobile Suit for the first time, being labeled a "natural"... he was probably 13 or 14 years old... so it doesn't sound too far-fetched that his "spare"/sister is talented enough to pilot a Mobile Suit (or Mars Suit), at the age of eleven

about the tallgesse... almost every mobile suit is derived from it (the Leo is directly derived from it)
LOL! Ok, maybe not the best example of people just stealing MSs and piloting them like nothing. I guess it happens more often then naught in Gundam series *COUGHAMUROCOUGH*. Please don't think that I'm ragging just on FT, there are many things in the original series that leaves much to be desired (Duo stealing a MS and driving at the age of 8ish, Trowa not changing his name when joining OZ or Mariemaia's Army [SERIOUSLY!?!?!? You took the dead man's name and expect not to be noticed by his father?], Quatre not knowing any of his sisters, yet they all love and support him no matter what, ect.), and I had hoped that they would address some of those things in the GotD manga... but I don't think that's going to happen.


And thanks for the clarification of Tallgeese. The reason the Wyvern is bugging me is because from previous timelines, I recall that the first colony wasn't created till a few decades (maybe a 100 years) into the A.C. era and the first MSs were developed a mere 2-3 decades before the beginning of the series. I'll find out where I read this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Tendou Souji View Post
Relena did not refuse to allow Sanc to be defended. When she found out about the mobile suits Noin was hiding she asked Heero what he thought about it and he said that she couldn't sit around and do nothing like the leaders of the past. He told her defense was needed and she gave him and Noin permission to defend the Sanc Kingdom. You like tons of people seem to be remembering Wing wrong. When was the last time you watched it?
No, she didn't refuse for it to be defended, but at the same time she didn't want to be defended by anyone. She simply wanted the Alliance to just leave her alone, even though she knew that wasn't going to happen. As far as she knew, she had no standing army or any mean of defending her country. And she didn't allow anything to happen. Things were out of her control, there was NOTHING she could have done to help the invasion or stop it from happening. After Heero, Quatre, and Noin stepped in, she was upset because it made her look bad in front of other countries. Sanc wasn't supposed to have any weapons in any form and here Noin, her top guardian/general/trustee was hiding a few mobile suits and a gundam from her, thus making Sanc (especially her because she's the leader and should know whats happening in her own country) look like hippocrates. But I'm pretty sure that deep down inside, she was grateful that Heero, Quatre, and Noin were there to save her kingdom. That girl has been given shit for years and all she did was be put on the spot, making live altering decisions and the fangirls hate her.
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I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Old 2012-02-22, 20:41   Link #3932
Tendou Souji
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Relena was fine with being defended. She said she trusted Heero and Noin's decision to bring weapons into the Sanc Kingdom because if she couldn't trust the people closest to her there was no way she could unite the world. Romefeller saw the Sanc Kingdom as an obstacle in their way of taking over Earth and the Colonies since more and more nations were supporting the Sanc Kingdom. A huge theme behind Relena's character was realizing that you sometimes have to fight for peace and arm yourself against those who want to destroy it. She learned that you can't always talk your way out of situations and have to fight for what you believe in. Again, Relena was fine with the Sanc being defended and gave Heero and Noin full permission to do what they wanted. Frozen Teardrop doesn't contradict that.
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Old 2012-02-22, 22:19   Link #3933
Eeni
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Totally agreed, she didn't ask for help and didn't turn it away when it did show up. She listened to Heero and Noin and, like you said, realized that there was no way she could keep her kingdom safe without some form of weapon.

As far as contradiction goes, what does it matter? Relena's memory has been wiped clean and is a clean slate. FT Relena is nothing like she was in the series. She's just a shell of what she used to be.
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There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Old 2012-02-22, 23:58   Link #3934
Tendou Souji
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Well Relena remembers Heero so I doubt her memory was completely wiped.
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Old 2012-02-23, 03:12   Link #3935
Eeni
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Well Relena remembers Heero so I doubt her memory was completely wiped.
Weird, I wonder what they did with her that she retained her own memories....

On a side note, I was watching Endless Waltz and at the end when Zechs and Noin are talking, Noin mentioned that Relena is going to take up the terraforming project which "has yet to begin". Sumizawa is rewriting A.C. history for us!!! Let's hope he can at least keep things consistent between the manga and novel.
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There was never a great talent without a bit of insanity.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in so little space. -FalsePrime

Stone Age man attempted to draw movement on cave walls by drawing mammoths with multiple legs. The artists worked until their eyes went bad, they got no pay, no credit, and they were eventually eaten by wild animals. Animation was born! - Tom Sito

And as the Black Beast lurched forward, escape for Arthur and his knights seemed hopeless, when suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack! The cartoon peril was no more. The quest for the Holy Grail could continue. - Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Old 2012-02-23, 11:20   Link #3936
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http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kouryakukan/e/...661c5a5f99f56b

update from kouryakukan
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Old 2012-02-23, 12:10   Link #3937
Faerie
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I only asked when was the last time you watched it because many people who talk down about Wing get things completely wrong because they haven't watched since the Toonami days. The amount of incorrect information that gets posted across the internet is sickening. Especially when it is treated as fact.
Sorry, but where exactly did you see anyone here talking negatively about Wing? People, including me are upset about FT. Not Wing. Because we like Wing. And we don't like FT, because it does stupid things and at times contradicts Wing. Note the difference.
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Old 2012-02-23, 12:13   Link #3938
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Um... I think we'll be dropping Frozen Teardrop now. This shit is just too much.

Rhapsody of Loneliness - Prologue

- The story begins April AC-146
- Heero Yuy's political debut was with with an anti-war speech that started with "shut up, old man"
- Following the speech, Heero and Sabrina spend a long time hiding themselves at Cinquante Khushrenada's mansion. It was to defend them from assassination by the Alliance Forces.
- Sabrina and Katrina avoided appearing in the same place following the "official" death in the shuttle accident.
- Katrina passes "Katrina Peacecraft" to her sister Sabrina who chooses the path to continue fighting with the Wyvern.

- An armistace treaty was later signed beterrn the Sanc Kingdom and the Alliance Forces.
- Reparations of 5x that of the Peacecraft Family's total assets was added to the treaty. "Katrina Peacecraft" accepts the advice of Romefeller Foundation's Eric Shergold and signs the treaty.
- The evacuating Alliance Forces attempt to slaughter civilians but they're prevented by Katerina in the Wyvern.
- Katerina, D.D. and Howard gather in the secret base called "Sherwood Forest" and board the flagship "Robin Hood"

- After that, the reparations imposed on the Sanc Kingdom are paid by Eric's personal assets. He has a thing for Sabrina but the age difference at the time prevented him from saying anything (lol she's 15--pedo!)

- Meanwhile, in Sherwood Forest, "Sorcière", a long hair beautiful woman joins in.
- She's a former rebel army "gunner" (she passed herself off as this), but she's just as odd as the other scientists
- Her sense of naming is strange: 5 large-scale heavy tanks are referred to as the "pumpkin tank corps" because they're called "Jack-o-Lanterns"

- In the end, she turns out to be a he. The long hair was a wig.
- Although disguising as a woman is a mans hobby, the figure is a younger Doktor S who develops the Heavyarms and Prometheus.

- Katerina sees the Pumpkin Tanks and exclaims "Then tonight I'm Cendrillon!"
- Cendrillon (Lightning Queen Katrina) arrives on the battlefield called "Endless Waltz" with the pumpkin tanks provided by Sorcière.
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And it’s also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2012-02-23, 12:40   Link #3939
wingzerosnuggles
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How's Glory of the Losers looking this month? Yeah, FT just gets more and more ridic. I cannot picture Doktor S as a beautiful woman. OTL

Also, who's D. D.?
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Old 2012-02-23, 13:22   Link #3940
Faerie
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... There is no doubt in my mind that this was written under the influence of at least one hallucinogenic substance.
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