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Old 2012-02-24, 12:29   Link #7121
kenjtr
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I really dont understand kikajima cause she herself said medaka doesnt understand zenkichi at all but at the same time she wants things go like it was before because it was good for her . Even so she never put herself in zenkichis shoes who always try but fail and get discarded , only can be seen as an intresting subject by the women he loves and thrown away if he lost his walue . Its pretty sad for zenkichi but kikajima wants nothing to change , if medaka understands zenkichi his chances of her loving back is pretty low too .

So what now will medaka come to love zenkichi cause kikajima is sad ? i think kikajima maybe loves zenkichi without knowing and dont want him be together with medaka so she is trying them return as friends which lets her go both way as medakas friend and zenkichis girlfriend , its also funny medakas friendship equalls zenkichis love
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Old 2012-02-24, 16:04   Link #7122
[HearT]
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post

So what now will medaka come to love zenkichi cause kikajima is sad ? i think kikajima maybe loves zenkichi without knowing and dont want him be together with medaka so she is trying them return as friends which lets her go both way as medakas friend and zenkichis girlfriend , its also funny medakas friendship equalls zenkichis love
hahahah, you're random fanfics every five posts make me laugh. のヮの
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Old 2012-02-24, 16:13   Link #7123
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kenjtr@ Wait ..what O_O I though that kikajima like Kumagawa and no Zen .
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Old 2012-02-24, 17:51   Link #7124
Shadow5YA
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Kikajima is blushing almost everytime we see her. It's hard to tell who she really likes, if she likes anyone.
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Old 2012-02-24, 18:26   Link #7125
Sol Falling
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She did tell Kumagawa that his words could make her fall in love with him, but yeah, in general I don't think there's anyone that Kikaijima seriously likes. Kikaijima's fighting for something she herself believes in, and the core of why she's even in the Student Council at all. I think that that is what the recent reappearances of Kikaijima's original serious mode mean.

Kikaijima joined the Student Council for two reasons: 1. Medaka was paying her, and 2. her two "older brothers" told her to go and make friends. The origin of this "blushing Kikaijima" was in that decision to make friends.

"Friendship", as Kikaijima understands it, can be seen in the objective as Medaka presented at the end of the first orienteering game. Kikaijima at that time was highlighted as a sort of "mascot" for that story. The outright frustration/blame Kikaijima addressed to Zenkichi in this chapter arose from how Zenkichi, and then Medaka, proved to be obstacles to that ideal.

The ideal of friendship which Medaka presented was comrades working together towards a goal. One particularly noticeable aspect was the subsumption of competition amongst the participants, despite the event supposedly being a competitive game. The specific moral which emerged from that interaction was that "it does not matter whichever one wins", and that "the journey itself is the prize". This is the issue Mogana has with Zenkichi's conflict with Medaka, which is specifically predicated on the question of "who is right", "who is the main character", "who will win". (As an aside, as the other major recipients of the moral of that activity, it is obvious why the 5 trainee candidates are also on Kikaijima's side.)

There are two simple roots to Kikaijima's position at this point in the story: one, that Zenkichi wants to chase after a different dream/goal than the rest of them; and two, that Medaka is too willing to make enemies/to stand alone. Nothing mysterious or unreasonable about her motivations at all.
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Old 2012-02-24, 20:47   Link #7126
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
She did tell Kumagawa that his words could make her fall in love with him, but yeah, in general I don't think there's anyone that Kikaijima seriously likes. Kikaijima's fighting for something she herself believes in, and the core of why she's even in the Student Council at all. I think that that is what the recent reappearances of Kikaijima's original serious mode mean.

Kikaijima joined the Student Council for two reasons: 1. Medaka was paying her, and 2. her two "older brothers" told her to go and make friends. The origin of this "blushing Kikaijima" was in that decision to make friends.

"Friendship", as Kikaijima understands it, can be seen in the objective as Medaka presented at the end of the first orienteering game. Kikaijima at that time was highlighted as a sort of "mascot" for that story. The outright frustration/blame Kikaijima addressed to Zenkichi in this chapter arose from how Zenkichi, and then Medaka, proved to be obstacles to that ideal.

The ideal of friendship which Medaka presented was comrades working together towards a goal. One particularly noticeable aspect was the subsumption of competition amongst the participants, despite the event supposedly being a competitive game. The specific moral which emerged from that interaction was that "it does not matter whichever one wins", and that "the journey itself is the prize". This is the issue Mogana has with Zenkichi's conflict with Medaka, which is specifically predicated on the question of "who is right", "who is the main character", "who will win". (As an aside, as the other major recipients of the moral of that activity, it is obvious why the 5 trainee candidates are also on Kikaijima's side.)

There are two simple roots to Kikaijima's position at this point in the story: one, that Zenkichi wants to chase after a different dream/goal than the rest of them; and two, that Medaka is too willing to make enemies/to stand alone. Nothing mysterious or unreasonable about her motivations at all.
Basically she wants to keep the status quo, Zen realised he wasn't happy with the Status quo and neither was Medaka. Which makes it a bit weird. Surely they have a right to change the status quo if they want to especially if there's no malicious activities going. Change in itself is not a bad thing.
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Old 2012-02-24, 20:55   Link #7127
kenjtr
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Anyway kikajima is no different then medaka and zenkichi in that aspect she is being selfish too , she doesnt want what will make everyone happy she is just trying to protect her usuall life style she used to . At this point zenkichi will try to be with medaka i am ok with either results even if he wins her heart or not things wont be same anymore . I dont want zenkichi running araund medaka for all the series he can win her heart or he can loose and get lost from her life there is no third option for zenkichi now if he wanted to be friends with medaka he would have apoligised after she beat her but he didnt .

Its pretty sad for a guy being araund the women he loves and getting ignored all the time even if zenkichi dont get medakas heart he can move on with his life , its like his time stopped when he started to love medaka . I am not blaming medaka in that aspect she doesnt need to love medaka but then she needs to let him go for his own good .
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Old 2012-02-24, 21:27   Link #7128
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Basically she wants to keep the status quo, Zen realised he wasn't happy with the Status quo and neither was Medaka. Which makes it a bit weird. Surely they have a right to change the status quo if they want to especially if there's no malicious activities going. Change in itself is not a bad thing.
It's not about a "status quo". It's about an ideal, which Kikaijima has just as much a right to pursue as Zenkichi or Medaka have to pursue their individual interests. The ideal which Kikaijima's opposition to Zen and Medaka is based on, namely "friendship" or "teamwork", is one in which the members of a team or organization subordinate their individual interests for the sake of a greater victory. Namely, comrades work together with each other towards a common goal, so the issue of who "wins" becomes unimportant, as they share in a common victory.

Talking about a "status quo" doesn't make sense because we didn't even really have this ideal before the Treasure Hunt orientation arc, or more accurately Medaka's need to create successors to the Student Council for the sake of a future-proof counterplan against Ajimu. Actually, prior to that arc where Akune, Zenkichi, and even Kikaijima started developing their own independence, you couldn't really call the Student Council a true team, anyway. Up till now, the Student Council has essentially been an organization based around the ideals of Medaka, with Akune and Zenkichi in particular only tagging along because they were following Medaka, to the point that it was actually outsiders to the organization who most understood/supported Medaka's purposes independently (Hinokage, Naze, or Koga throughout the Minus arc, specifically). So when we talk about Kikaijima's desire for the Student Council to be about "friendship" or comraderie, this is actually a new ideal or development.

What you guys should think about is how this "friendship"/"teamwork" idea actually stands in direct contrast to Ajimu's concept of the "main character". In Ajimu's conception, there is some special person who wins, and being that person is desirable. Under the "teamwork" idea, multiple people (potentially everybody, even) win/wins, and it doesn't even matter who does so specifically. The conflict that Zenkichi has brought into the Student Council now is about him becoming the Main Character, and Medaka is humouring/encouraging his challenges for whatever reasons which are of interest to her. I don't see how any actually logical argument could be made that Kikaijima is "wrong" for wanting the organization to be unified and stay focused on its actual purpose, which is helping people. She is arguably the most correct out of all of them, although it is undeniable that Zenkichi and probably Medaka still do have individual issues they need to work through eventually.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:12   Link #7129
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's not about a "status quo". It's about an ideal, which Kikaijima has just as much a right to pursue as Zenkichi or Medaka have to pursue their individual interests. The ideal which Kikaijima's opposition to Zen and Medaka is based on, namely "friendship" or "teamwork", is one in which the members of a team or organization subordinate their individual interests for the sake of a greater victory. Namely, comrades work together with each other towards a common goal, so the issue of who "wins" becomes unimportant, as they share in a common victory.

Talking about a "status quo" doesn't make sense because we didn't even really have this ideal before the Treasure Hunt orientation arc, or more accurately Medaka's need to create successors to the Student Council for the sake of a future-proof counterplan against Ajimu. Actually, prior to that arc where Akune, Zenkichi, and even Kikaijima started developing their own independence, you couldn't really call the Student Council a true team, anyway. Up till now, the Student Council has essentially been an organization based around the ideals of Medaka, with Akune and Zenkichi in particular only tagging along because they were following Medaka, to the point that it was actually outsiders to the organization who most understood/supported Medaka's purposes independently (Hinokage, Naze, or Koga throughout the Minus arc, specifically). So when we talk about Kikaijima's desire for the Student Council to be about "friendship" or comraderie, this is actually a new ideal or development.

What you guys should think about is how this "friendship"/"teamwork" idea actually stands in direct contrast to Ajimu's concept of the "main character". In Ajimu's conception, there is some special person who wins, and being that person is desirable. Under the "teamwork" idea, multiple people (potentially everybody, even) win/wins, and it doesn't even matter who does so specifically. The conflict that Zenkichi has brought into the Student Council now is about him becoming the Main Character, and Medaka is humouring/encouraging his challenges for whatever reasons which are of interest to her. I don't see how any actually logical argument could be made that Kikaijima is "wrong" for wanting the organization to be unified and stay focused on its actual purpose, which is helping people. She is arguably the most correct out of all of them, although it is undeniable that Zenkichi and probably Medaka still do have individual issues they need to work through eventually.
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:35   Link #7130
evil|plushie
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If they wanted everyone to share in the victory, maybe they should have stopped medaka from basically kicking zen in the back in chapter 117?116? and tried to make peace then instead of waiting till now. Instead, they were like 'oh, it's ok. It's only Medaka and Zen again. They have this weird special relationship where one particular side loses out often'. That's not teamwork, that's just tyranny of the masses. It's also why people say Zen has sacrificed himself for Medaka. Who has benefited more from everything in the last 100+ chapters? What has Medaka gained and what has Zen gained? I look down on Kikaijima's idea of friendship cause it's shallow and basically you're just asking one side to suck up everything for the sake of maintaining your precious peace.

Plus Kikaijima's taking kumagawa in the group. Seriously, does she not know what type of person he is? Does she think he really really believes in the concept of 'friendship'? EPIC FAIL
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Old 2012-02-24, 22:47   Link #7131
kenjtr
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In the end everyone has their own goal which makes them happy but since their goals crossed someone will be unhappy thats inevitable and in this situation i cant see a happy ending for anyone .
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Old 2012-02-25, 03:25   Link #7132
summers
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I understand Kikaijima's frustration, but at the same time she comes off pretty naive this chapter, ostensibly seeing Medaka and Zenkichi as just another fight. Oh well, we need honest characters.

How is Japan's bboy culture anyway?
Zen kinda tricked her into going along with his plan. I loled.
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Old 2012-02-25, 03:30   Link #7133
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I did not see the flashing coming nor the break-dancing Medaka, I though she was just trying stuff on as usual or Someone forced her to cover up. But the plan B jump up on the stage and start break-dancing is LOL. Imagine it, a horrible performance its all akward and then someone just comes on the stage and starts going wild. LOL.
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Old 2012-02-25, 07:05   Link #7134
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
Yes, the successors said that, and they had been in the story for how long exactly? The "happy days" which they were talking about had been established for mere hours before they fell apart with the introduction of the conflict between Medaka and Zenkichi. Saying that Kikaijima wants to protect the "status quo" is inaccurate to the point of meaninglessness and does nothing to describe her actual motivations.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
If they wanted everyone to share in the victory, maybe they should have stopped medaka from basically kicking zen in the back in chapter 117?116? and tried to make peace then instead of waiting till now. Instead, they were like 'oh, it's ok. It's only Medaka and Zen again. They have this weird special relationship where one particular side loses out often'. That's not teamwork, that's just tyranny of the masses. It's also why people say Zen has sacrificed himself for Medaka. Who has benefited more from everything in the last 100+ chapters? What has Medaka gained and what has Zen gained? I look down on Kikaijima's idea of friendship cause it's shallow and basically you're just asking one side to suck up everything for the sake of maintaining your precious peace.
If you would remember, Kikaijima did try to stop the fight between Medaka and Zenkichi from the very beginning, and was opposed to it from the start. The Naked Apron alliance was created basically immediately in the aftermath of Zen and Medaka's battle.

As for your question of "what did Medaka gain and what did Zen gain" over the past 100 chapters though, do enlighten me as to what you could possibly be thinking. The ideal of "friendship" as Kikaijima or Medaka presented it is not about peace, it's about unity for the sake of a greater goal--because that greater goal is more important than their individual gain, or circumstances. Wasn't part of the core of Ajimu's arguments towards Zen that Medaka never needed any of that "loyalty" or "protection" Zenkichi was primarily giving her? Hardly ever in the past have I seen Zenkichi focused on the actual goal of "helping everybody", or "making everybody happy" as part of the greater mission of the Student Council. The idea that Medaka "gained" more from their past relationship than Zenkichi did is simply laughable. A real picture of the situation would be that Medaka misunderstood Zenkichi, and Zenkichi misunderstood Medaka, so that in the end neither of them really gained anything from the other.

Quote:
Plus Kikaijima's taking kumagawa in the group. Seriously, does she not know what type of person he is? Does she think he really really believes in the concept of 'friendship'? EPIC FAIL
If Kumagawa is the sort of person who can never become the main character, then isn't it actually extremely fitting that he chose to support the group which is against the concept of a main character in the first place? As demonstrated during the Treasure Hunt orientation, a team-based environment is actually one of the only contexts in which Kumagawa can take part in a greater victory, and such a set-up in fact makes him extremely happy. There is no reason at all currently to doubt Kumagawa's sincerity towards the greater goals of the Naked Apron Alliance. Your villainization of him makes no sense--by this point Kumagawa is clearly meant to be seen as a sympathetic character.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-02-25 at 07:17.
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Old 2012-02-25, 11:52   Link #7135
evil|plushie
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If by stopping the fight you mean waiting till Medaka had beaten the crap out of Zen before saying "hey, let's all be friends" then yes -_- Wow, how wonderful of her. I can see how 'friendship' and 'equality' mean so much to her.

And WTF is the greater goal? The keeping of the status quo? Is there a demon lord about to wake up and rampage all over the world that needs everyone to unite against it? Alien invasion? The flask plan? Let's not forget Zen has his own plan to stop it, same as Medaka. Just cause they don't agree with you doesn't mean you force them to go along with you.

And I'll put it this way, in 100+ chapters, Medaka went from being an ostracised existence because she was so perfect to one that had other friends than Zenkichi. Zenkichi made more friends as well but put it this way, Zenkichi would have made friends REGARDLESS because he's the type who gets along with people. So who gained more in this instance. This has nothing to do with whether they understood one another or not but whose life was more enriched by knowing the other.

This has nothing to do with Kumagawa being the sort of person who can never become main character but more of a 'you can not trust Kumagawa to believe in friendship'. You've obviously forgotten the type of person Kumagawa is, the fact you think he's a sympathetic character is just your own person POV. Let's not forget this is the person who at the age of 6?? tried to blackmail people and drive them to despair. There is nothing to show that he has become less of a troll.
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Old 2012-02-25, 12:08   Link #7136
summers
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I do not see the need for the load of text. The successors actually said they wanted things to remain as they with the student council, they wanted those happy days to continue, which no matter how you sugar coat it is the status quo. They don't want things to be different they want things to remain as they were within the student council. Zen and Medaka don't want this and there's nothing wrong with that.
That's a trademark of this thread. I think they are having a competition to see who can write the longest.
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Old 2012-02-25, 14:40   Link #7137
Sol Falling
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If by stopping the fight you mean waiting till Medaka had beaten the crap out of Zen before saying "hey, let's all be friends" then yes -_- Wow, how wonderful of her. I can see how 'friendship' and 'equality' mean so much to her.
Akune explicitly pointed out that Medaka and Zenkichi were so serious about the fight that it would have been impossible to get in between them.

Quote:
And WTF is the greater goal? The keeping of the status quo? Is there a demon lord about to wake up and rampage all over the world that needs everyone to unite against it? Alien invasion? The flask plan? Let's not forget Zen has his own plan to stop it, same as Medaka. Just cause they don't agree with you doesn't mean you force them to go along with you.
This simply reveals what you've been missing about this manga. The greater goal is obviously the Student Council's purpose of helping people pursue their dreams--you know, the reason Medaka set up her Medaka Box? Helping other people is the reason that the current Student Council exists. Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to say that that is more important than competing with each other over some internal conflict.

Quote:
And I'll put it this way, in 100+ chapters, Medaka went from being an ostracised existence because she was so perfect to one that had other friends than Zenkichi. Zenkichi made more friends as well but put it this way, Zenkichi would have made friends REGARDLESS because he's the type who gets along with people. So who gained more in this instance. This has nothing to do with whether they understood one another or not but whose life was more enriched by knowing the other.
Medaka made friends with people like Akune, Miyakonojou and Kumagawa despite Zenkichi, not because of him. Zenkichi has nothing to do with Medaka's current friends--most of them started out as enemies, the exact people Zenkichi was trying to keep away from her. All Zenkichi has actually contributed to Medaka's life was her initial goal/mission old to help other people at two years old. However, that in itself is no different from how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years without changing his original optimistic, idealistic personality.

Could Zenkichi have lived a happy life without Medaka? Sure, possibly. He probably wouldn't have been able to meet someone like Kumagawa and declare "Life is a Plus" so confidently, but certainly, he could've achieved a normal level of happiness. In the same way, though, you cannot exactly say that the two year old Medaka before she met Zenkichi was "unhappy". If Medaka never learned to care about other people's emotions in the first place, why would she even care if she was ostracised for eternity?

Quote:
This has nothing to do with Kumagawa being the sort of person who can never become main character but more of a 'you can not trust Kumagawa to believe in friendship'. You've obviously forgotten the type of person Kumagawa is, the fact you think he's a sympathetic character is just your own person POV. Let's not forget this is the person who at the age of 6?? tried to blackmail people and drive them to despair. There is nothing to show that he has become less of a troll.
The "type of person Kumagawa is" is someone who protects the weak. This is an inherent part of his character which was the specific reason he managed to inspire such loyalty from the Minuses. Kumagawa will never become less of a troll, but he has become a completely good and sympathetic character. Ever since Medaka convinced him that it was possible for Minuses to win, Kumagawa has stopped using his trolling to hurt other people and instead used it to try to win--both for his own sake, and also for the "weak" people whom Kumagawa is moved by empathy into protecting. This is what was revealed through Kumagawa's actions in the Treasure Hunt arc, and also the key behind Kumagawa's current participation in the Naked Apron Alliance.

If you can't identify or understand the positive aspects of Kumagawa's personality, then this simply shows that you have completely missed his character development.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-02-25, 15:28   Link #7138
suikostar
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Akune explicitly pointed out that Medaka and Zenkichi were so serious about the fight that it would have been impossible to get in between them.



This simply reveals what you've been missing about this manga. The greater goal is obviously the Student Council's purpose of helping people pursue their dreams--you know, the reason Medaka set up her Medaka Box? Helping other people is the reason that the current Student Council exists. Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to say that that is more important than competing with each other over some internal conflict.



Medaka made friends with people like Akune, Miyakonojou and Kumagawa despite Zenkichi, not because of him. Zenkichi has nothing to do with Medaka's current friends--most of them started out as enemies, the exact people Zenkichi was trying to keep away from her. All Zenkichi has actually contributed to Medaka's life was her initial goal/mission old to help other people at two years old. However, that in itself is no different from how Medaka enabled Zenkichi to live for 13 years without changing his original optimistic, idealistic personality.

Could Zenkichi have lived a happy life without Medaka? Sure, possibly. He probably wouldn't have been able to meet someone like Kumagawa and declare "Life is a Plus" so confidently, but certainly, he could've achieved a normal level of happiness. In the same way, though, you cannot exactly say that the two year old Medaka before she met Zenkichi was "unhappy". If Medaka never learned to care about other people's emotions in the first place, why would she even care if she was ostracised for eternity?



The "type of person Kumagawa is" is someone who protects the weak. This is an inherent part of his character which was the specific reason he managed to inspire such loyalty from the Minuses. Kumagawa will never become less of a troll, but he has become a completely good and sympathetic character. Ever since Medaka convinced him that it was possible for Minuses to win, Kumagawa has stopped using his trolling to hurt other people and instead used it to try to win--both for his own sake, and also for the "weak" people whom Kumagawa is moved by empathy into protecting. This is what was revealed through Kumagawa's actions in the Treasure Hunt arc, and also the key behind Kumagawa's current participation in the Naked Apron Alliance.

If you can't identify or understand the positive aspects of Kumagawa's personality, then this simply shows that you have completely missed his character development.
About the Medaka made friends... now imagine what ould happen several times when Medaka was about to kill her former enemies and when Zenkichi and the other stoped her. Even though its not really pointed but i think the one who really stoped her at those moments is Zenkichi himslef, cuz its pointed few times in manga that he is clearly diferent kind of friend than the others. Best example was when the dude (forgot name) asked Medaka why the difference in treat of Zenkichi and Akune.

Another thing i wanted to say that all characters in the manga show development ,besides Medaka. Srsly reread the manga i couldnt tell u the diference betwen the current one and the one in chapter 1, while Zenkichi changed the most and especially in last chapters.

"he could've achieved a normal level of happiness." dude srsly there are no levels of happiness, its relative different for every1. As showed in manga the actually abnormals lack the happiness or in Medaka case i dont really think she ever experienced it. Without ever meating her Zenkichi could have probably achieved happines far easier than he is doin it now. Remember Zenkichi was not special, but under the normals he was elite, he could even gotten pro at boxin or other sports but he didnt cuz he wanted to devote himself to Medaaka and his love for her.And yea Zenkichi gave Medaka a reason tolive, its clearly pointed in the manga and that is far more than she has givven him in return , if she has given him anything.

Kumagawa...Well for me he is more the tragic character who somehow managed to change and ,as pointed in manga, is gettin happier and happier, which is of course a positive thing. But on other side Zenkichi is right too , cuz in real life u cant just forgive people for doin all those horrible things and act tomorow like it was nothing.But u know due to Kumagawa's personality nothing can suprise u from him...

The most puzling character of course stays Medaka and in some chapters she really behaved even worser than Kumagawa when he was the bad guy.She is neither good nor evil but something betwen.I just cant read her, even Najimu is somehow les complicated than her.
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Old 2012-02-25, 15:41   Link #7139
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
If by stopping the fight you mean waiting till Medaka had beaten the crap out of Zen before saying "hey, let's all be friends" then yes -_- Wow, how wonderful of her. I can see how 'friendship' and 'equality' mean so much to her.

And WTF is the greater goal? The keeping of the status quo? Is there a demon lord about to wake up and rampage all over the world that needs everyone to unite against it? Alien invasion? The flask plan? Let's not forget Zen has his own plan to stop it, same as Medaka. Just cause they don't agree with you doesn't mean you force them to go along with you.

And I'll put it this way, in 100+ chapters, Medaka went from being an ostracised existence because she was so perfect to one that had other friends than Zenkichi. Zenkichi made more friends as well but put it this way, Zenkichi would have made friends REGARDLESS because he's the type who gets along with people. So who gained more in this instance. This has nothing to do with whether they understood one another or not but whose life was more enriched by knowing the other.

This has nothing to do with Kumagawa being the sort of person who can never become main character but more of a 'you can not trust Kumagawa to believe in friendship'. You've obviously forgotten the type of person Kumagawa is, the fact you think he's a sympathetic character is just your own person POV. Let's not forget this is the person who at the age of 6?? tried to blackmail people and drive them to despair. There is nothing to show that he has become less of a troll.
Kumagawa probably does believe in friendship through the minus arc they went through all the trouble of how he believes in the camaraderie between minus'. His problem is that the dude lacks any morals whatsoever. Which is why he doesn't bat an eye lid at permanently blinding someone in order to achieve his goals. He's the sorta person you shouldn't trust as far as you could throw him.

He tends to lie a lot and you never know what he's really thinking. Which is why it's pretty foolish to allign with him. Medaka can handle him because she knows regardless of what he does he won't even be able to sour her victories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This simply reveals what you've been missing about this manga. The greater goal is obviously the Student Council's purpose of helping people pursue their dreams--you know, the reason Medaka set up her Medaka Box? Helping other people is the reason that the current Student Council exists. Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for Kikaijima to say that that is more important than competing with each other over some internal conflict.

That's preceisely why she's naive, Zen has no intention of preventing helping people, he remained in the student council because of this fact and continues to do so even now heck he's even helping Kikajima, by telling her to speak her mind about her issues with the fact to Medaka, I doubt Medaka wants to to stop helping people either.

Competition is not in herently bad, the fact of the matter is Zen hung around Medaka because he was in love with her, that's pretty much it, if he wasn't he'd probably would of just have gone around helping people that wanted it while not helping people that didn't. Because his reason for hanging around her was because of this it was inevitable he would either try to win her heart or move on. This was always going to happen and it needs to happen for Medaka and Zenkichi personal welfare, the longer this shit drags out the more effort spent in Zenkichi's case on a pointless goal.

This is why it may seem like she's being naive for doing what she's doing she's looking at it from her perspective and not looking at it from Zen's and Medaka's perspective. The Irony is both Zen and Medaka understand this whole situation better than she does which is why Zen had to tell her what to do.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2012-02-25 at 15:56.
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Old 2012-02-25, 20:54   Link #7140
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by suikostar View Post
About the Medaka made friends... now imagine what ould happen several times when Medaka was about to kill her former enemies and when Zenkichi and the other stoped her. Even though its not really pointed but i think the one who really stoped her at those moments is Zenkichi himslef, cuz its pointed few times in manga that he is clearly diferent kind of friend than the others. Best example was when the dude (forgot name) asked Medaka why the difference in treat of Zenkichi and Akune.

Another thing i wanted to say that all characters in the manga show development ,besides Medaka. Srsly reread the manga i couldnt tell u the diference betwen the current one and the one in chapter 1, while Zenkichi changed the most and especially in last chapters.

"he could've achieved a normal level of happiness." dude srsly there are no levels of happiness, its relative different for every1. As showed in manga the actually abnormals lack the happiness or in Medaka case i dont really think she ever experienced it. Without ever meating her Zenkichi could have probably achieved happines far easier than he is doin it now. Remember Zenkichi was not special, but under the normals he was elite, he could even gotten pro at boxin or other sports but he didnt cuz he wanted to devote himself to Medaaka and his love for her.And yea Zenkichi gave Medaka a reason tolive, its clearly pointed in the manga and that is far more than she has givven him in return , if she has given him anything.

Kumagawa...Well for me he is more the tragic character who somehow managed to change and ,as pointed in manga, is gettin happier and happier, which is of course a positive thing. But on other side Zenkichi is right too , cuz in real life u cant just forgive people for doin all those horrible things and act tomorow like it was nothing.But u know due to Kumagawa's personality nothing can suprise u from him...

The most puzling character of course stays Medaka and in some chapters she really behaved even worser than Kumagawa when he was the bad guy.She is neither good nor evil but something betwen.I just cant read her, even Najimu is somehow les complicated than her.
Medaka has shittons of development in this manga, so much so that I don't really have the time/effort to list it all (new Nisemonogatari episode is 'causing brilliant shitstorms around the internet, lol). If you're rereading the manga then the most obvious early example is when Medaka stopped being a pacifist around chapter ~19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
That's preceisely why she's naive, Zen has no intention of preventing helping people, he remained in the student council because of this fact and continues to do so even now heck he's even helping Kikajima, by telling her to speak her mind about her issues with the fact to Medaka, I doubt Medaka wants to to stop helping people either.

Competition is not in herently bad, the fact of the matter is Zen hung around Medaka because he was in love with her, that's pretty much it, if he wasn't he'd probably would of just have gone around helping people that wanted it while not helping people that didn't. Because his reason for hanging around her was because of this it was inevitable he would either try to win her heart or move on. This was always going to happen and it needs to happen for Medaka and Zenkichi personal welfare, the longer this shit drags out the more effort spent in Zenkichi's case on a pointless goal.

This is why it may seem like she's being naive for doing what she's doing she's looking at it from her perspective and not looking at it from Zen's and Medaka's perspective. The Irony is both Zen and Medaka understand this whole situation better than she does which is why Zen had to tell her what to do.
I don't really disagree with this, but this is why I've been saying that if Medaka and Zen are choosing to pursue their own individual purposes, Kikaijima also has the right to do so herself as well. The ideal that Kikaijima is pursuing right now is one which Medaka herself presented to the group and demonstrated its validity through the first orientation activity, so I don't think it's unreasonable that she has chosen to prioritize it. If anything, Kikaijima's initiative also created a very natural and fitting set-up for Kumagawa and the 5 trainee candidates' present roles in the story.
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