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Old 2012-02-25, 18:41   Link #41
Triple_R
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The problem isn't the content, in the sense of what's already there.

The problem is the content, in the sense of what's not there.


Put another way, it's not that anime needs to completely get rid of anything (for example, stop doing eroge adaptations), but rather that there's a certain type of anime show that the anime world probably needs more of if anime is to ever fully rebound in the North American/Anglosphere marketplace.

Shows like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Outlaw Star, FMA, Ghost in the Shell, etc...

In other words:

1) Gritty Action/Sci-Fi
2) Cool badass leads, by they male or female.
3) More adult characters and characters that look like adults
4) More major female characters like Major Motoko, Faye Valentine, and FMA's Lust (I think most of us here know how these types of female characters are very different from your modern moe archetype girls).


Now, the problem is that this type of anime doesn't sell that well in Japan, at least not any more. Even so, it's exactly what the North American anime marketplace could use right now, much in line with what 0utf0xZer0 argued on this thread many posts back.

If you had three or more of this type of anime show per year, potential North American anime fans wouldn't care if there were dozens of new, crappy (as they may see it) eroge adaptations out there. They'd simply ignore them, and talk about the new anime shows that they did like. It really would re-energize the North American anime marketplace, I think.

These sorts of shows that 0utf0xZer0 and I have referred to are the ones that enabled a lot of western anime fans to dig below the surface of the big shonen and kids shows (Naruto, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, etc...). This type of anime show is likely essential to growing (and likely even just sustaining) the anime marketplace in North America.

But I can't think of many, if any, really recent (within the last two years) anime shows like them. I have a really hard time imagining the North American marketplace being anything more than a shell of its former self without more of this type of anime show. A lot of North American fans became anime fans due to seeing this type of anime show on TV.


Of really recent anime productions, the one that comes the closest to this is Redline. But Redline totally bombed in Japan. I can only hope that it might bounce back a bit due to the western fandom. If it doesn't, it's hard to see why Japanese anime companies would even try to appeal directly/primarily to western fans. They get burned domestically almost every time they do that. If western fans don't reward them for the risk and effort, then you'll never again see something like Cowboy Bebop. That's putting it a bit harshly, perhaps, but I'm pretty confident of it all the same.


Now, maybe most anime fans here on AS don't care about this sort of show. They're not my personal favorite type of anime show either. But I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see English dubbed anime disappear within 10 years without some new, more modern equivalent to Cowboy Bebop sometime in the near future. And if English dubbed anime disappears entirely, then the North American marketplace for anime will have a very low ceiling to it. Oh, it may still exist, but it will indeed be a ghost in the shell of a marketplace.
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Old 2012-02-25, 19:13   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Oh, it may still exist, but it will indeed be a ghost in the shell of a marketplace.
A title snuck in your quote. Anyway what about Tiger & Bunny / Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt?
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Old 2012-02-25, 19:15   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Put another way, it's not that anime needs to completely get rid of anything (for example, stop doing eroge adaptations), but rather that there's a certain type of anime show that the anime world probably needs more of if anime is to ever fully rebound in the North American/Anglosphere marketplace.
There's a reason I like anime. It's Japanese. If people want to watch stuff that the Japanese don't want to watch, that is a perfect opportunity for Western Animation to rebound.

Quote:
Now, the problem is that this type of anime doesn't sell that well in Japan, at least not any more. Even so, it's exactly what the North American anime marketplace could use right now, much in line with what 0utf0xZer0 argued on this thread many posts back.
It's not what the North American Anime marketplace could use right now. It's what Western Animation could use right now.

Quote:
These sorts of shows that 0utf0xZer0 and I have referred to are the ones that enabled a lot of western anime fans to dig below the surface of the big shonen and kids shows (Naruto, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, etc...). This type of anime show is likely essential to growing (and likely even just sustaining) the anime marketplace in North America.
Interesting argument, but that would mean
Stereotypical Shounen Action -> Americanized Anime
instead of
Stereotypical Shounen Action -> VN adaptations, Moe, etc.

how will more American pandering anime lead to more fans of non-American pandering anime, especially when, as you mentioned, fans of American pandering anime seem to think that non American pandering anime is crap?

Quote:
Of really recent anime productions, the one that comes the closest to this is Redline. But Redline totally bombed in Japan. I can only hope that it might bounce back a bit due to the western fandom. If it doesn't, it's hard to see why Japanese anime companies would even try to appeal directly/primarily to western fans. They get burned domestically almost every time they do that. If western fans don't reward them for the risk and effort, then you'll never again see something like Cowboy Bebop. That's putting it a bit harshly, perhaps, but I'm pretty confident of it all the same.
If anime is made to American's desires, doesn't that just make it Western Animation produced elsewhere?

I fail to see why it is important to have anime directly aimed at Americans.
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Old 2012-02-25, 20:35   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
A title snuck in your quote.
That was intentional.


Quote:
Anyway what about Tiger & Bunny / Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt?
It might be a start, but I doubt it'll be enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
If people want to watch stuff that the Japanese don't want to watch, that is a perfect opportunity for Western Animation to rebound.
It's not that simple. The many North American anime fans who came to anime due to shows like Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Trigun, etc... like the visual style and format of anime, which the west has tried to copy but with mixed results at best.


Quote:
Interesting argument, but that would mean
Stereotypical Shounen Action -> Americanized Anime
instead of
Stereotypical Shounen Action -> VN adaptations, Moe, etc.

how will more American pandering anime lead to more fans of non-American pandering anime, especially when, as you mentioned, fans of American pandering anime seem to think that non American pandering anime is crap?
It doesn't have to lead to that. It's good to have a diverse fanbase of diverse tastes. That's a sign of a healthy entertainment industry, imo.

The video game industry produces a lot of FPS games and a lot of RPGs. Loads of people who love one of those two types of video games have no interest whatsoever in the other one. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't negatively affect the gamer community. Rather, having different types of games to satisfy different audiences with different tastes helps to ensure a relatively vibrant gamer community.


Quote:

I fail to see why it is important to have anime directly aimed at Americans.
Nobody's saying that all anime shows should be directly aimed at the North American marketplace. I specifically suggested three or more a year. Given that the anime world produces dozens upon dozens of shows per year, that represents no loss whatsoever for people who like the more otaku-driven anime.
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Old 2012-02-25, 22:03   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
There's a reason I like anime. It's Japanese. If people want to watch stuff that the Japanese don't want to watch, that is a perfect opportunity for Western Animation to rebound.


It's not what the North American Anime marketplace could use right now. It's what Western Animation could use right now.
I agree that Western animation should expand to cover the type of genres that sci-fi/action anime fans like, but I still find your comment funny after the huge explosion of popularity among adult watchers of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. If the moe-centric anime are unsuccessful in North America, they either lack whatever charm MLP has, or they suffer from a lack of awareness.
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Old 2012-02-25, 22:25   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
I fail to see why it is important to have anime directly aimed at Americans.
Well that question really depends on what the anime industry wants. If they wish to expand and make more profit then turning to the US market is an easy way to make more money. The US is a major market with lots of people with a decent amount of disposable income. If they want to tap that market they need to cater some of their products to satisfy those users. In this case that means adapting the content of anime so it is suitable for a wide-stream audience. The added benefit to adapting to American viewers is that American viewers share similar tastes to European viewers so that market could be tapped as well. Now, whether the anime producers want to do that is another question. Judging by their current actions they are not very interested in expanding their works outside Japan and if that is the case then there is little reason to adapt anime to American audiences. But if they are after bigger profits then it is an idea worth considering.

Another thing these anime producers should consider is I imagine, judging by the age of the various protagonists in anime series, is that the target audience of anime appears to centre around the teenage years to early twenties. Considering Japan is ageing then their market for younger viewers will diminish in the coming years so either they look to other markets (such as the US) to fill that gap or adapt their anime series as their audience grows older. I suppose the other alternative is just to accept their overall market will decline but most companies do not consider that an acceptable solution.
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Old 2012-02-25, 22:40   Link #47
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I doubt the R1 industry will die anytime soon. We might get new companies into the game like when NIS America decided to expand to anime.

Now when the R2 companies decides to start subbing everything on both DVD and BR releases they will most likely cut ties with the R1 market and force us to import their stuff. That will be the day I will only buy series I truly enjoyed that were top notch for me. Cause I doubt most people outside of Japan can shell out $400~$800 for a complete series.
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Old 2012-02-25, 22:55   Link #48
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Just want to point out that Madhouse is pretty much the only studio that has concidered the american market recently with stuff like Marvel colaborations or a Supernatural anime,there's also the Trigun movie and the fact that the credits of Rideback are in english tells me this was made with a US audience in mind.
They even handled the animation production of the second season of the american cartoon the Boondocks.

I know there's a new direction so I don't know if that's going to continue but they have worked on Snoopy anime as well
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Old 2012-02-26, 00:00   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monsta666 View Post
Well that question really depends on what the anime industry wants. If they wish to expand and make more profit then turning to the US market is an easy way to make more money. The US is a major market with lots of people with a decent amount of disposable income. If they want to tap that market they need to cater some of their products to satisfy those users. In this case that means adapting the content of anime so it is suitable for a wide-stream audience. The added benefit to adapting to American viewers is that American viewers share similar tastes to European viewers so that market could be tapped as well. Now, whether the anime producers want to do that is another question. Judging by their current actions they are not very interested in expanding their works outside Japan and if that is the case then there is little reason to adapt anime to American audiences. But if they are after bigger profits then it is an idea worth considering.

Another thing these anime producers should consider is I imagine, judging by the age of the various protagonists in anime series, is that the target audience of anime appears to centre around the teenage years to early twenties. Considering Japan is ageing then their market for younger viewers will diminish in the coming years so either they look to other markets (such as the US) to fill that gap or adapt their anime series as their audience grows older. I suppose the other alternative is just to accept their overall market will decline but most companies do not consider that an acceptable solution.
While it is true that Japan is suffering a serious decline in birth rate, the number of people interested in "otaku" stuff is actually growing quickly. And developing a anime for worldwide audiences is awfully risky, considering more of them have came out as losses than successes.

And I don't consider My Little Pony a total roaring success like many claim. A lot of the "awareness" came from Meme-R-Us...err 4chan, it's more of a niche audience that only looks big online than anything (just like anime), and you have to consider how shitty the American animation industry is for part of its popularity.
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Old 2012-02-26, 00:13   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
I agree that Western animation should expand to cover the type of genres that sci-fi/action anime fans like,
Why shouldn't anime itself try to cover these genres?

There's several dozen anime shows made every year. From a current fan's perspective, what would be wrong with a few of them being like the Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell shows of the past?


Quote:
but I still find your comment funny after the huge explosion of popularity among adult watchers of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. If the moe-centric anime are unsuccessful in North America, they either lack whatever charm MLP has, or they suffer from a lack of awareness.
"My Little Pony" is a very old, very popular brand name. It's been around since the mid-80s. It has substantial nostalgia value helping it out. Most moe-centric anime wouldn't have that. I suppose you could do "Sailor Moon: The Next Generation" or something like that. That actually would have some nostalgia value in North America.


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Originally Posted by speedyexpress48 View Post
While it is true that Japan is suffering a serious decline in birth rate, the number of people interested in "otaku" stuff is actually growing quickly.
Do you have any hard data to back this up? I'm not saying that you're wrong, necessarily, but I do think that claims like this one should be at least somewhat substantiated.

DVD/Blu-Ray sales are up, yes, but that could be due to the existing fandom having more disposable income rather than the total size of the fandom increasing.
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Old 2012-02-26, 00:58   Link #51
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Originally Posted by monsta666 View Post
Well that question really depends on what the anime industry wants. If they wish to expand and make more profit then turning to the US market is an easy way to make more money. The US is a major market with lots of people with a decent amount of disposable income. If they want to tap that market they need to cater some of their products to satisfy those users. In this case that means adapting the content of anime so it is suitable for a wide-stream audience. The added benefit to adapting to American viewers is that American viewers share similar tastes to European viewers so that market could be tapped as well. Now, whether the anime producers want to do that is another question. Judging by their current actions they are not very interested in expanding their works outside Japan and if that is the case then there is little reason to adapt anime to American audiences. But if they are after bigger profits then it is an idea worth considering.

Another thing these anime producers should consider is I imagine, judging by the age of the various protagonists in anime series, is that the target audience of anime appears to centre around the teenage years to early twenties. Considering Japan is ageing then their market for younger viewers will diminish in the coming years so either they look to other markets (such as the US) to fill that gap or adapt their anime series as their audience grows older. I suppose the other alternative is just to accept their overall market will decline but most companies do not consider that an acceptable solution.
If there is money in it, if I were them, I would go for it. But the video that started this thread just argued against there being any money in it.

I'm well past my highschool years and still watch anime featuring highschoolers. You don't have to be the same to relate to. Backing this is up is the fact that the the primary target audience of most anime is guys in their late 30's and early 40's, at the vast amount of anime featuring people younger than that, of the opposite sex, and most often both, there is little evidence to suggest that the anime industry has to change their characters to respond to the aging otaku population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why shouldn't anime itself try to cover these genres?
There is no reason it shouldn't, but there is also little reason it should. The only reason is that if there was money in doing it, which apparently there is not at least according to the video.

Quote:
"My Little Pony" is a very old, very popular brand name. It's been around since the mid-80s. It has substantial nostalgia value helping it out. Most moe-centric anime wouldn't have that. I suppose you could do "Sailor Moon: The Next Generation" or something like that. That actually would have some nostalgia value in North America.
MLP is a very old popular brand name until recently was viewed in a fairly unfavorable and condescending light by the people who are now huge fans.

Quote:
Do you have any hard data to back this up? I'm not saying that you're wrong, necessarily, but I do think that claims like this one should be at least somewhat substantiated.
I second a request for data.

Quote:
DVD/Blu-Ray sales are up, yes, but that could be due to the existing fandom having more disposable income rather than the total size of the fandom increasing.
What would cause a sudden rise in disposable income considering the state of the Japanese economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not that simple. The many North American anime fans who came to anime due to shows like Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Trigun, etc... like the visual style and format of anime, which the west has tried to copy but with mixed results at best.
I'm pretty sure Avatar Last Airbender was popular among the Naruto demographic. Don't see why an equivalent won't be a success among the Bebop lovers. I don't think anyone has tried yet, and there is no evidence to suggest its impossible. I'm not particularly in to this stuff, so feel free to point out a show I missed.
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Old 2012-02-26, 00:58   Link #52
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Originally Posted by speedyexpress48 View Post
And I don't consider My Little Pony a total roaring success like many claim. A lot of the "awareness" came from Meme-R-Us...err 4chan, it's more of a niche audience that only looks big online than anything (just like anime), and you have to consider how shitty the American animation industry is for part of its popularity.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why shouldn't anime itself try to cover these genres?

There's several dozen anime shows made every year. From a current fan's perspective, what would be wrong with a few of them being like the Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell shows of the past?
Woah, did I say there was anything wrong with anime covering those genres? I greatly enjoyed Tiger & Bunny and Redline, and that's only from last year. I'd love it if Japan made more anime like those, but I'm just not the one who decides what anime should be produced.

But *since* sci-fi and action anime tend to have a larger ratio of fans in the west, that just might be a good market for western animation to tap into as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
"My Little Pony" is a very old, very popular brand name. It's been around since the mid-80s. It has substantial nostalgia value helping it out. Most moe-centric anime wouldn't have that. I suppose you could do "Sailor Moon: The Next Generation" or something like that. That actually would have some nostalgia value in North America.
Good point. I can get behind this.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:32   Link #53
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What's "directly aimed at Americans"? Afro Samurai, Supernatural, Highlander, and the Marvel adaptations qualify as such products.

However, titles such as Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell were made for the Japanese and were even successful within that market. Let's not forget that it's the Japanese market that has narrowed (shoving most shows into late night slots doesn't help) and that the issue of taste isn't as clearcut (i.e. show appealing to Japanese tastes vs show appealing to western tastes) as some make it out to be. In the long run, focusing too much on a handful of niches is a good way of driving the industry into irrelevancy.

It's risky for producers to try different genres when the customer base is uncertain. However, if success in overseas markets (somehow, someway.....) can help sustain such productions, the home market only benefits. Given enough time, the market could even broaden again, which is what creators and producers both want.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:41   Link #54
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Well that question really depends on what the anime industry wants. If they wish to expand and make more profit then turning to the US market is an easy way to make more money. The US is a major market with lots of people with a decent amount of disposable income. If they want to tap that market they need to cater some of their products to satisfy those users. In this case that means adapting the content of anime so it is suitable for a wide-stream audience. The added benefit to adapting to American viewers is that American viewers share similar tastes to European viewers so that market could be tapped as well. Now, whether the anime producers want to do that is another question. Judging by their current actions they are not very interested in expanding their works outside Japan and if that is the case then there is little reason to adapt anime to American audiences. But if they are after bigger profits then it is an idea worth considering.
For Japanese companies to really benefit from doing any of this they'd actually have to kill the North American anime market as it's currently known though. If they specifically cater shows for a western audience, they'd have to cut out the middlemen, as in current American redistribution companies and sell the product directly.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:45   Link #55
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If there is money in it, if I were them, I would go for it. But the video that started this thread just argued against there being any money in it.

I'm well past my highschool years and still watch anime featuring highschoolers. You don't have to be the same to relate to. Backing this is up is the fact that the the primary target audience of most anime is guys in their late 30's and early 40's, at the vast amount of anime featuring people younger than that, of the opposite sex, and most often both, there is little evidence to suggest that the anime industry has to change their characters to respond to the aging otaku population.
Well if that is the case with not making money then I suppose what they are doing is the best thing. But one failure should not be enough to stop them, it just means they need a different strategy. As for the point about the primary audience; it is true that one does not have to be the same age to relate to the anime viewer; me myself I above the target age group. However in a more general sense the people who are MOST able to relate will be the ones in the same age group as the protagonist as they will actually be living a lot of their experiences. To us it is just a faded memory. Sure there will be some older viewers who can relate and still watch the series regardless but they will form the minority and most importantly; they will not be the main target for the anime producers. Maybe I am wrong but I think the main people who watch anime above say 25 are otakus and they form a minority of the total anime population albeit they are a vocal minority.

If the minority are otakus then over time the anime producers will need to adapt because as their primary audiences becomes smaller then they must change their content to keep that audience as the otakus by themselves will not fill the gap. However if otakus are the majority like you say then yes, no adaptation is necessary. But I think, for right or wrong, that otakus form a minority of the overall anime community. I do think most anime viewers (at least in Japan) are people in their teens or perhaps early 20s and as that age group will decline the anime producers will need to adapt to this change.
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:51   Link #56
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The otakus are the large majority...the teens/20-somethings are the people that watch some of the most popular titles and...that's about it. As for "relating to the character", most people don't really relate to Caribbean sea pirates or aliens, either...so...
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Old 2012-02-26, 01:59   Link #57
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the anime industry is dying, yes, but this is a Good Thing
you are such a baka
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:05   Link #58
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Originally Posted by TJR View Post
What's "directly aimed at Americans"? Afro Samurai, Supernatural, Highlander, and the Marvel adaptations qualify as such products.

However, titles such as Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell were made for the Japanese and were even successful within that market. Let's not forget that it's the Japanese market that has narrowed (shoving most shows into late night slots doesn't help) and that the issue of taste isn't as clearcut (i.e. show appealing to Japanese tastes vs show appealing to western tastes) as some make it out to be. In the long run, focusing too much on a handful of niches is a good way of driving the industry into irrelevancy.

It's risky for producers to try different genres when the customer base is uncertain. However, if success in overseas markets (somehow, someway.....) can help sustain such productions, the home market only benefits. Given enough time, the market could even broaden again, which is what creators and producers both want.
Personally, some of what makes japanese anime special is NOT "aiming at Americans" but aiming at their home audience in Japan. Same goes for television and film in any country.
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:11   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
you are such a baka
If you're going to insult someone for their intelligence, at least use proper capitalization and punctuation, and don't throw Japanese words pointlessly into English sentences where they don't belong.

Also, I fail to see how disliking anime alone makes one an idiot.
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Old 2012-02-26, 02:22   Link #60
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