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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 165 75.34%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 10.05%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 4.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 1.37%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.37%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 1.37%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.46%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 2.74%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-26, 06:50   Link #181
Saturn Beaver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And it's not a "baseless expectation" to expect a sequel to be similar to its original, because sequels usually are similar to the original.

The differences between Bake and Nise are pretty substantial, imo. It's only natural that many people who liked Bake would dislike Nise (or at least some episodes of Nise).
I think this is the main reason why so many people have such strong reactions against Nise - for a sequel it really is quite different than its predecessor. Oh sure, it has its Nisio-style dialog and Kaiki, and it's not like there wasn't any fanservice in Bake, but there seems to be a shift in the focus. To me, rather than a sequel, Nise feels like a fanservice OVA (remember these girls? Well, here they are again! In sexier situations!) that somehow got extended to a full season.

I don't know if the perverted/wacky side of Nisio that has been restrained in Bake has taken over or anything, but that certainly what it seems to me. There's still a point in the scenes (like in this ep, it shows that after the events of Karen Bee Karen has became much closer to Araragi and not all tomboyish) but there's definitely a higher fanservice to plot ratio in these scenes.

Now, for SHAFT, obviously they're going to adapt Nise. Bake is a huge success in sales and acclaim, and Nise is part of the ongoing story so despite all the increased focus in fanservice, it isn't that skippable (Kaiki isn't gone for good, and the fire sisters are definitely sticking around). Now they have a choice whether to adapt all these fanservice scenes faithfully, or skip it to go straight to the more plot-relevant stuff. They chose the former by doing things faithfully, but instead of doing a by-the-numbers 'let's get this over with approach', they instead completely revels on it and make it as grand as possible.

Now this may be my personal opinion, but to be honest I don't mind it. Maybe it's because I'd rather prefer a faithful adaptation than experimenting to make the anime has its own take and flavor of the source material (though to be honest, this is just because usually the anime studio screws this up instead of making it better). Do I wish they can swap the budget with Bake? Well, yeah I do, but to be honest I'm also in awe of the audacity of how they're willing to burn the budget and do everything just for fanservice scenes - so over the top I looped back to being impressed.

So yeah, after watching the first few ep of Nise I adjusted my expectations of Nise - to take an example, more of a fumoffu sequel than a Second Raid (though I still think fumoffu > Nise). Like I've said before, I'd rather that this fanservice interlude doesn't last as long as full season, but apparently Nisio himself dedicates a full blown novel for this in the first place, allegedly with as much focus on the fanservice scenes as well, so it really isn't all SHAFT's fault.

All I'm hoping is that SHAFT doesn't burn all their budget on this with nothing to spend on further seasons. Also, I really hope that this is just a one time venting thing for Nisio, and that the increased fanservice ratio won't be an ongoing trend going forward in further novels. Because really, as much as I derive enjoyment from Nise for what it is, I still prefer the Bake approach and wish that it's the style future novels are sticking with as well.
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Old 2012-02-26, 06:54   Link #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Well one tends to be a boring one sentence post, while the other type tends to get really long and irrelevant to the original topic.
How does on why a toothbrush scene being criticized due to it not only being incestuous and irritating but irrelevant to advancing the plot, is considered irrelevant to this episode discussion.
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Old 2012-02-26, 06:57   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It should have been clear before the 23rd episode of Monogatari, that the second half of episode 12 was the exception and the series is not about the cheesy romantic relation of two teenagers, there are too many shows doing that with various degrees of ecchi to accommodate everyone's tastes
In a sense, it's the opposite. People expecting Monogatari to be the chessy romantic relation of two teenagers is one of the reason why the toothbrush scene works.

If you watch a porn, you expect a porn. But if you watch Monogatari your mind will get blown. That's what makes Mononogatari great
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
As far as I know most adaptions don't cover every paragraph of material there is. They don't have time for that and if they do that it usually leads to horrid pacing. This is not a book, this is an anime.
It's exactly because in Bake anime they cut many naughty jokes that people's expectations with Nise got screwed.

I wrote a post about Nadeko Snake and Tsubasa Cat in the LN thread. Some changes between the novel and the anime surprised me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
You know, the other Monogatari ep that had so many 10s was episode 12 of Bakemonogatari, but that on the other hand was "legit good" - Senjougahara x Araragi romance development with a perfectly timed ED song. This? This was just incest otaku pandering to the max. Revolutionary fan-service my ass. I'm sorry but I was not sexually aroused or "Hnnnnnging" as some people like to call it over a bloody toothbrush scene.
Seriously, comedy is underrated. People with no education on art think the angsty and the incomprehensible must be rated high, whereas what's played for the laugh is the lowest of the low. As George Carlin once said, "Dying is hard. Comedy is harder".

And the story about pandering is getting ridiculous. There is no way to avoid pandering a group of people or two. Senjougahara for example was clearly pandering to those who like abusive language.
Quote:
That wasn't the only problem with the episode. Araragi rubbing his foot on his sister's head whilst she was begging him to take her virginity (I swear this is what I read from the subs). Yea... no wonder some people in the west think anime is very sexist.
What is actually sexist about it? Are females not good enough to be ridiculous on screen?
Quote:
Not to mention the fact this episode had no purpose as it didn't develop character and the only worthwhile thing we got was that Araragi agreed to introduce Kanbaru to his sister at the very end of the ep.
Consider that in the novel the chapter starts with Araragi saying that he and Karen as siblings are not on good terms. There is plenty of chara development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And there's no bias in liking incest?

Liking incest is no less a personal bias/preference than disliking it is.
Yeah, but it sounds like a gay who can't laugh at a joke if it's about women and hetero sex. I don't watch/read Nise for incest (and it's not about incest), but I can still laugh at it. I don't like guro, but I think Junji Itou is a great author. EDIT: no, wait, it was not Junji Ito. Can't remember the name, it was something like Shinitero Kago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
If the source material is displeasing they can either A.) skip it
They can't skip it because most people think it's great. Deal with it.
Quote:
Though I can't even begin to fathom why an entire episode needed to be dedicated to what seemed like nothing more than incestual pandering...Was this scene in the novel really that long?
Yeah, it was that long. And frankly, that chapter was dragged too much. But the idea behind was genius, and Nisio boldly, majestically and ruthlessly brought it down on paper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon4dudes View Post
Third, there might be something about wanting to use the novel's names. As a result, Shaft became somewhat bound to the 2 chapters. I mean Bakemonogatari spanned 2 books if I recalled correctly, which I believe allowed it to be 1 cour with 5 arcs.
Bakemonogatari was originally a series of short stories that later got collected in two books. Starting with Kizu each book became a single story.

Last edited by Shikijin; 2012-02-26 at 08:05.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:09   Link #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
They can't skip it because most people think it's great. Deal with it.
How nice that you conveniently cut out the next part of the post.

Quote:
And if they opt to animate it, then it's subject to criticism...All it means is that the source material was equally as bad as the animated version.
Which really has nothing to do with the post you quoted. The point is that a perfect adaptation of a subpar material doesn't mean the episode is exempt from criticism. But in any case, some people dealt with it by not liking it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:09   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
Seriously, comedy is underrated. People with no education on art think the angsty and the incomprehensible must be rated high, whereas what's played for the laugh is the lowest of the low. As George Carlin once said, "Dying is hard. Comedy is harder".
Problem with anime comedy in general is that it's largely of the otaku pandering type. Let me get this straight, I am no comedy hater. I have seen several stand-up comedies and western TV shows and sitcoms where I have laughed out loud. And you know what anime comedy lacks - satire, deadpan, black humour. It's slapstick, gags or "sex comedy". It gets really old, and frankly I think it's immature. To make it fair, Japanese/Asian culture as a whole seem to lack in the satire, deadpan, black areas when it comes to comedy anyway so anime alone isn't to blame. I know that anime has to "pander" to otaku to an extent for the industry to survive, but it doesn't stop the fact that that type of comedy isn't funny in the first place (or is getting really old).

Quote:
What is actually sexist about it? Are females not good enough to be ridiculous on screen?
Seeing someone stepping on your head with your foot whilst offering their virginity be it in a serious or comedic context appears very sexist to me. Granted I'm not fond of all the female tsunderes that beat up male protagonists for the smallest of reasons either so it goes both ways.

Quote:
Consider that in the novel the chapter starts with Araragi saying that he and Karen as siblings are not on good terms. There is plenty of chara development.
It was made blantantly obvious that Araragi and his sisters were on so-so terms at the start of Nise. Regardless, this episode made no effort to progress the plot or develop characterisation (one of either is required imo to make an episode good) and this episode did neither. It consisted a whole episode dedicated to incestual overtones and a toothbrush fetish.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:14   Link #186
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The WTF-ness of this episode was amazing. Wow...just wow...9/10, because I really don't rate stuff higher than that. Made a great few laughs and had both plot and randomness...the type of thing that attracted me here in the first place.

And I'm sorry, but how does incest make a plot good/bad? I mean, if it's a moral thing, fine, but it doesn't make writing automatically go to shit...I'm confused. Honestly.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:17   Link #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
In a sense, it's the opposite. People expecting Monogatari to be the chessy romantic relation of two teenagers is one of the reason why the toothbrush scene works.
Come on you know very well who they wanted to take Karen's place, and we would have gotten almost no nagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
How does a post on why a toothbrush scene being criticized due to it not only being incestuous and irritating, but irrelevant to advancing the plot is considered irrelevant to this episode discussion.
Because before that the excuse to complain wasn't incestuous toothbrushing, but the Shinobu bathing, before that the Nadeko fooling around, before that Mayoi's handstands, before that Tsubasa posing on Koyomi's bed, before that Karen's crotch on the street, before that Tsukihi's boredom in the sitting room... and all the time the same complain, there is too much ecchi in Nise- since half of them were not fanservice. These were also prevelent in Bake- and Kizu- whether some want to forget them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
Seeing someone stepping on your head with your foot whilst offering their virginity be it in a serious or comedic context appears very sexist to me. Granted I'm not fond of all the female tsunderes that beat up male protagonists for the smallest of reasons either so it goes both ways.
As much as when Hitagi was torturing Koyomi in the previous arc... How many complained about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
It was made blantantly obvious that Araragi and his sisters were on so-so terms at the start of Nise. Regardless, this episode made no effort to progress the plot or develop characterisation (one of either is required imo to make an episode good) and this episode did neither. It consisted a whole episode dedicated to incestual overtones and a toothbrush fetish.
Actually, that was obvious since Mayoi Snail, and there was a lot of exposition and development for Karen, and to a lesser extent Tsukihi in the first half of Nise- but since the main topic of discussion is usually how annoyed a vocal minority is by ecchi, discussing these elements of the series is really hard in episode thread
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:20   Link #188
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Maybe viewers should really look things on a different perspective when they watch Bake and Nise...

The approaches of Bake and Nise no doubt are completely different. But to be honest, from Episode 12 of Bake onwards, I start to see a shift from the typical trend that's in the first 11 episodes of Bake. So I'm actually not surprised that Nise goes more in depth with relationships. Bake is really to introduce the important characters into the story. Nise is to develop on the relationships.

I think people have said this before, but viewers should really be more open-minded on Nise than Bake. Bake is a lot more precise, but Nise is a lot broader in perspective, so don't be surprised if you see an episode in Nise that doesn't make any sense to the plot. You can be angry all you want, I'm cool with that, but to those who voted 1/10 just because you're fed up with the incest/sexist theme in this episode, you should really think again. Nise is more spread out and not specifically linked to the main title.

You shouldn't vote something 1/10 just out of your own rage and emotions. If you are angry with an episode or so because of something, you shouldn't even vote in the first place.

Personally, I'm actually cool with this episode. I find it funny and ridiculous at the same time, and I like it because that's the strength of Monogatari. You just don't know what to expect. I definitely do have facepalm moments, but for SHAFT to be able to do just that, I'd say they did a great job at that.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:24   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
You can be angry all you want, I'm cool with that, but to those who voted 1/10 just because you're fed up with the incest/sexist them in this episode, you should really think again. Nise is more spread out and not specifically linked to the main title.

You shouldn't vote something 1/10 just out of your own rage and emotions. If you are angry with an episode or so because of something, you shouldn't even vote in the first place.
Not only people have their own scale and reasons to have a specific score, but it doesn't make any sense for them not to vote 1/10 when they think it doesn't deserve any other score. Likewise, no one ever questioned people to vote 10/10 either. It is up how people perceive the qualities/defaults of the episode and/or how they enjoyed it.

To deny the right to vote 1/10 because they didn't like this episode doesn't make any sense at all. It is basically an oxymoron to what the voting system is for to begin with.
If there was "no reason" to vote low/high score, that much would be understandable, but your logic is not sound in these circumstances: it is because they don't like it that they can vote such a low score, which is the same for people who liked it and vote 9-10/10.
Your pretense doesn't work at all.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:24   Link #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
I think people have said this before, but viewers should really view Nise on a broader scale than Bake. Bake is a lot more precise, but Nise is a lot broader in perspective, so don't be surprised if you see an episode in Nise that doesn't make any sense to the plot. You can be angry all you want, I'm cool with that, but to those who voted 1/10 just because you're fed up with the incest/sexist them in this episode, you should really think again. Nise is more spread out and not specifically linked to the main title.

You shouldn't vote something 1/10 just out of your own rage and emotions. If you are angry with an episode or so because of something, you shouldn't even vote in the first place.
Eh, I would recommend to not tell people what to do with their arbitrary numbers. Would it be fair if I said, you shoudn't vote 9/10 just because you are happy and went HNNGGGG over something. I do that all the time after all, to both degrees. If an episode made someone upset, then they didn't enjoy it and thus the bad numbers. But I know better than to make generalizations about people's motives. And how many people voted 1 anyways?

And it's a poll; who the heck cares when the numbers are trending positively anyways?
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:27   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Eh, I would recommend to not tell people what to do with their arbitrary numbers. Would it be fair if I said, you shoudn't vote 9/10 just because you are happy and went HNNGGGG over something. I do that all the time after all, to both degrees. If an episode made someone upset, then they didn't enjoy it and thus the bad numbers. But I know better than to make generalizations about people's motives. And how many people voted 1 anyways?

And it's a poll; who the heck cares when the numbers are trending positively anyways?
Out of 117 voters...107 of those voted positively. So yeah, IDK why the 1/10 votes are something to make a fuss about, IMO. There always will be people who love it and there will always be people that hate it, and those reasons may sound totally unreasonable to some but make sense for others.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:28   Link #192
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Out of 117 voters...107 of those voted positively. So yeah, IDK why the 1/10 votes are something to make a fuss about, IMO.
Rage is rage; the opposite of satisfaction. If you raged, then you raged, regardless of reason. Can't make everyone happy.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:30   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Because before that the excuse to complain wasn't incestuous toothbrushing, but the Shinobu bathing, before that the Nadeko fooling around, before that Mayoi's handstands, before that Tsubasa posing on Koyomi's bed, before that Karen's crotch on the street, before that Tsukihi's boredom in the sitting room... and all the time the same complain, there is too much ecchi in Nise- since half of them were not fanservice. These were also prevelent in Bake- and Kizu- whether some want to forget them.
And some of the complaints are valid. Whilst you may think some people are overreacting, people like me find it difficult to see why people can't see a significant difference in the level of fanservice/ecchi in Nise compared to Bake.

I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not one LN was more/less fanservice centric compared to each other or in their animated adaptations. An anime should be assessed on the anime itself, or else this will be like trying to argue something like Persona 4 is a great anime because it's dead loyal to its source material. That's a load of bollocks if you ask me. What works in a manga, LN or game does not always work in a visual animated or motion picture medium.

I came into the Monogatari franchising liking the dialogue and character interactions in Bakemonogatari. Fanservice was there but I didn't mind too much (cept for the Nadeko Snake arc). Nisemonogatari retains largely the great dialogue and character interactions when it chooses to do so, but unfortunately half the time it seems to go off-course and instead of developing character or moving the plot, muck around with whatever otaku fetish they feel like exploring. Half the time. I don't recall Bake resorting to this amount.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:32   Link #194
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Yeah, I have no qualms with the voting system anyway. It's just funny when people just straight vote 1/10 without even thinking twice. But that's how people are, I can understand that Like Archon_Wing said, rage is rage...

Rage can be a good thing sometimes, though.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:33   Link #195
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To those mentioning this episode has no plot development, I present to you more talking heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVTropes
Talking Heads: This is an extremely dialogue oriented show, but averted by Shaft's crazy visuals.
To describe. Episode 3 is just Hitagi and Koyomi talking in a playground about random stuff.
Episode 12 is COMPLETELY talking heads, thought it still manages to be entertaining... And adorable.
Done again in episode 4 of ''Nisemonogatari" in which the majority of the episode is one long conversation between Koyomi and Shinobu.
Oh right, I'll mention, that I'm actually too lazy to see if those episodes have plot developing dialogue, but from the looks of it, Bakemonogatari episodes 3 and 12 didn't seem to.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:34   Link #196
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Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
Yeah, I have no qualms with the voting system anyway. It's just funny when people just straight vote 1/10 without even thinking twice. But that's how people are, I can understand that Like Archon_Wing said, rage is rage...

Rage can be a good thing sometimes, though.
Well, there's also a consideration that it's merely an episode rating and thus it shouldn't be taken too seriously. It's merely a sample of your thoughts on 1/11 of the series so it just doesn't carry too much weight anyways. When this series ends and the overall thread comes up, you may indeed want to think twice. :3
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:35   Link #197
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Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
Yeah, I have no qualms with the voting system anyway. It's just funny when people just straight vote 1/10 without even thinking twice. But that's how people are, I can understand that Like Archon_Wing said, rage is rage...
There is a huge problem I have with your statement: you immediately consider those who have voted 1/10 as "not thinking twice".
Your conception of vote score doesn't mean people have the same (some use it only as how they enjoyed an episode, without factoring absolute qualities/defaults whatsoever).
To make such statement is nothing but impertinent.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:40   Link #198
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Hey guys, let's all just have an "average" option for everyone. No "good or bad" about this episode because everyone would rate it the same way no matter what. No complaining!

/sarcasm
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:47   Link #199
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just curious, if it's hitagi or kanbaru that's on the receiving side of the toothbrushing would it be better for you guys?
If I recalled how Hitagi stapled Koyomi in the mouth from episode 1

Seeing Koyomi toothbrushing Hitagi is kinda a romantic mirror from that episode
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:47   Link #200
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
When this series ends and the overall thread comes up, you may indeed want to think twice. :3
This is exactly what I'll be looking at.

Actually, I guess it's my bad that I said those who voted 1/10 are those who "don't think twice". I didn't actually mean that (or wasn't clear enough). I'm just referring to people who straight vote 1/10 out of pure rage. Those who voted 1/10 with valid reasons, I definitely respect that. I mean no harm.

That said, let me get back on topic.

To emphasize on this episode, yeah, while I find it absurd and all, I also find this episode funny at the same time. What I love of this episode is how detailed SHAFT can get just in this toothbrush cutscene alone. Though Bake and Nise have different story approaches, the scene approaches are still close to the same, and that's what I love about Bake and Nise
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