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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 166 75.45%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 10.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 4.55%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 1.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.36%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 1.36%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.45%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 2.73%
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-26, 16:21   Link #301
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence!

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... )
Ah, yes simultaneous truths. I think we are taught in school that only something is right and other stuff gets you marked down. And yea, trying to rationalize someone else's arguments in your own terms can cause many problems. Sometimes no one is really "wrong". They enjoyed it, or they didn't and that's just that. I can't go around saying people are wrong for feeling a certain way, because while entertainment is subjective those thoughts really did happen.

In other words, there's almost always a legit reason to vote something "Good" "bad" or "something in between". And staring at the poll suggests that many people have thought different things.

It's also why I try to avoid psychoanalyzing other people's motives. When I see a comment about this episode, it's merely a snapshot of their thoughts of a single episode of the whole show. I don't clearly know what they think of this anime or anime in general, and often as hard as I try to extrapolate, the reality of someone's tastes is often far different than what you can expect at first glance.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:35   Link #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
And you watch it play out and you go "wow, now that's something I don't see everyday -- what the heck just happened?"
That's not what I took from it at all.

You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How bold!

How... I've seen this a bazillion places before. How disappointing of the man who wrote the excellent arcs and dialogue of Bakemonogatari.

Yes, the use of a toothbrush was mildly creative (I write "mildly" because it never went anywhere outside of Karen's mouth), but the toothbrush is simply a vehicle for the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book. Furthermore, the vehicle chosen utterly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I've been to a Dentist before. Getting your teeth brushed by another person is highly unlikely to have an effect like this, even if you're madly in love with the person doing the brushing.

What's in Nise Episode 8 is all over the place in anime. It's nothing new, and it's nothing fresh, and it's nowhere near worth the insane levels of hype that this is episode is getting, imo.

It's admittedly very well-executed (production values, dialogue) sexual innuendo comedy, but "sexual innuendo comedy" is frankly dime-a-dozen in anime. What the Monogatari series used to be was much more fresh and unique in comparison to that, imo.


The Monogatari series actually used to explore interesting conflicts, ideas, relationship issues, and themes. There was a certain intellectual and thought-provoking heft to it. Aside from a couple conversations involving Kaiki there's been virtually none of this in Nise.


Quote:
Edit: As an analogy, it reminds me of when a popular band that has a certain style decides all of a sudden to put out an album that has a totally different style or is really weird/experimental, and fans start complaining "what happened to this band? They used to be so good!" And someone asks the band about it, and they just say it's an album they wanted to make. It's the "because we can" principle. They know it might alienate some of their fans, but pleasing those fans wasn't why they did it in the first place. "To thine own self be true," as it were. From the commentary posted above, that seems to be the case here too.
To add on to your analogy, but based on my perspective, it would be as if an once interesting musician decided to sell out by producing easy/breezy pop songs for teenage girls. It would be like if Michael Jackson, at the height of Thriller, teamed up with other genuinely interesting top musicians, to turn into The Backstreet Boys. That's honestly what seeing Bake transition to Nise has been like to me.


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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)
Even if we accept your position here (which in and of itself is debatable), there's a problem here.

All of the fanservice scenes of this anime (with the exceptions of the one involving Hitagi) can't go anywhere, hence keeping character relationships in something of a holding pattern as far as romantic/sexual interest is concerned. They're all one big tease, imo. That's a lot of what I often find unsatisfying about them. But then, that's partly why I've never understood the love of sexual fanservice that a fair number of anime fans have - So much of it is a tease that doesn't go anywhere, and will never go anywhere.

And this episode is also almost certainly going to amount to nothing but a big tease (unless Nisio is bolder than I currently think he is, and hence chooses to seriously threaten the Arargi/Hitagi pairing).

What interest this episode could have had for me is drowned out in the knowledge that Araragi is basically already taken (by someone who's liable to kill him or seriously maim him if he breaks her heart) and the Monogatari series won't go so far as to show actual sex scenes on camera.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:41   Link #303
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Pretty much everything has been done already. I have seen a lot kinkier stuff than any mainstream anime could ever deliver. You could also argue that Karen chose to be aroused by the simple brushing of teeth. The physiological evidence of this actually causing any kind of sexual excitement is zero, I think. Can't rule out the psychological factors, though.

I choose to be excited by the small stuff. It doesn't matter, for me, that it's only "mildly creative". It matters because it's exactly these characters and exactly in this show, that I love, who are doing it.

edit: I can, once again, only allude to what relentlessflame wrote about perspective below.

Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 16:55.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:46   Link #304
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Also, it's very painful to watch fellow novel readers talk about the meaning of 不死 since they clearly know which version is being used.
It is more painful for me since it seems nobody ever reads what I write. I just presented as a curiosity the fact 不死 is also used for undead. Nothing more. I tried to highlight the word "also" many times, but nobody ever noticed it The thing is, I recently got into an argument about the translation of a word for the opposite reason, the others were stating the word must have had multiple nuances
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Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
"Someone didn't get the joke." I kinda feel bad for them. You can try to explain the joke, but even if you succeed they will never find it as funny as the person who got it.
I'll try to explain too in my own way.

Works of fiction are abstractions of reality. Simplified abstractions of reality. Things work in the most easiest way. For example in movie we often see people shooting at locks to open a door. In reality it wouldn't work, but in fiction it's just an abstraction of what one has to do to open a locked door, so the audience can accept it. Much more acceptable than having someone spend ten minutes on screen to pick a lock.

What happens in anime?

You beat someone up? Chances are he will become your friend and ally.

Someone is moping? A punch to his face will make him come to his senses.

Araragi can't get on well with his sister? Pseudo-sex scene. Now they are just one step away from being carnal lovers.

That's the concept. What Nisio does is a substitution of reality. The author just threw away the tedious parts and instead offered a pseudo-explanation, highly improbable and therefore even believable, of a catharsis between siblings randomly initiated by an unsuspectable trigger, and both the characters and the audience were caught off guard. This was glorious.
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I agree, but "Deal with it" isn't really a productive criticism or conclusion of anything, and serves to not create any further understanding. It's merely a dismissive, and frankly, arrogant tone that shoudn't be used when you aren't properly responding to people. I criticize not what you say, but your manner of debate.
Honestly, by now I don't even remember what I was replying to, and I am sorry I can't muster the strength of will to look back in this thread. Anyway, in threads like this I read a lot of things that rub me the wrong way, so I acknowledge probably I overreacted.

The fact is that there is a poll over this thread, so you can easily gauge how much the show is appreciated. It is a fact this episode was liked, and liked a lot. When you see this fact, when you see that, as of now, there are currently 108 10s and 5 1s, it is preposterous to speak like this episode could have ever been cut, even as a hypothetical statement.

It may be because I am old enough and a veteran of many internet debates, but seriously, if you are clearly in the minority act more like it. One should have superior arguments, not an air of superior morality or superior tastes as if you were still the winner even if didn't convince anyone.

(Then again probably I can't blame people that much because the previous adaptation of Bake was somehow misleading)
Quote:
Yes, the pandering argument is lacking. I hate it myself. Problem is that people are also questioning the point of the episode and not just its content.
The point of the episode is its content.

If Nisio really wanted he could have cut a lot of scenes. He could have cut and sewed the plot, cut and sewed the plot, gradually simplifying things. But if you adopt that attitude, then there is no scene you can't cut. You need to know when to stop; if you have between your hands a good scene, sometimes you can go for it even if it's unnecessary to the plot.

And then again 1) the heroine of the previous arc must be present at the beginning, that was the formula of the first season. Karen was a given 2) it's a bit like in the Simpsons, the story starts from a tangential issue and you can't foresee early the direction it will take. Not a big deal, really.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:47   Link #305
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

Surely, the monogatari series is (in)famous for its talking head syndrome with gritty/clever themes, characters quirks and so forth. However, it isn't the same in this episode: what we got here? an erotic centred scene based on an extravagant (if not new age?) fetish. Episode 8 basically feels extremely disjointed, as Karen "issue" is already fixed and she could, at most, be a support characters or add some flavor, the same as how every other characters such like Mayoi and Suruga were doing.

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

Really, it seems you miss completely the point of the problem as it is presented: I don't recall outrage with Hitagi sexy poses at the start of Nise, nor people cried "BOO INCEST" when Koyomi kissed Karen whatsoever.

Again, if fanservice itself was a single moment without being overly dominant for a full episode, theren't wouldn't have that much negative response. However, dedicating a full episode for that, with a very random premise and laid bare script? Hell no. Heck, Archon example is surely effective: Shinobu's showtime has a huge share of fanservice, yet the content and essence is radically different and the response wasn't that much negative.

There is a drastic difference here, period.
Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage. Pressing the point will be just even more paraphrasing, so I will just end with that.
What were the elements that convinced you Shinobu's bath scene had meaning beyond fanservice, and why do you think that there aren't actually similar elements here? You say that the focus of this episode is an "extravagant/new-age fetish". We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant. It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend. The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.

Additionally, that SHAFT/Nishio dedicated an entire episode at this point to Koyomi's relationship with Karen is extremely reasonable given that this was the standard "aftermath/epilogue following a character arc". The beginning of Mayoi's arc focused on Hitagi; Mayoi was featured at the start of Kanbaru's; Kanbaru became a significant factor in Nadeko's; we began to understand Nadeko's true characterization when we moved to Tsubasa's arc. Karen herself showing somewhat rarely during her character arc, it is appropriate to use the introduction to Tsukihi's arc as an opportunity to showcase how Karen has changed and the new state of their relationship.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence!

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... )
I don't think it's false to say that the people disappointed with the episode believe that its primary motivation was to indulge in incestual fanservice. The difference between people's reactions to this and previous instances similarly tinged with fanservice was that this time they couldn't see the wider themes/context which connect the fanservice scenes to the story. As some posters have earlier stated, one of the characteristics of the Bakemonogatari series is that the fanservice/eroticism is intimately coupled with the plot. In this episode, yes of course the scenes were extremely fanservicey and filled with gratuity. However, to write these scenes off and say they have nothing to do with the overall greater picture of development is simply inaccurate.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:51   Link #306
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Wow, this thread certainly exploded in just one night.

Personally, I do not find it unreasonable for this episode to receive a low score, but I would not think one scene would warrant the entire episode to be voted as a one. Maybe it's because I take things as a holistic approach in watching episode, that I can still at find some redeeming elements in it. While, the toothbrush scene does entertain me to such levels I haven't experienced in a long time, it was the other details that truly made it deserve a ten for me. Considerations for the animation, the style, the execution, the dialogue, the new OP, and the VA really stood out for me after I re-watched it a couple more times. Shaft really outdid themselves this episode. The BGM that accompanied the toothbrush scene, especially, added the the overall presentation.

For me, a one means the episode from the beginning to the end was terrible in all aspects.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:51   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How original!
Well, only to clarify what I meant, I certainly didn't expect it in this show, in this form, and to this degree of comedic excess (and the latter was the key for me). But I wonder if this is a bit like the "if you have to explain the joke, it wasn't funny" analogy others have alluded to. I'm not sure. But all I can say is that I have a really hard time relating to a perspective that would say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What's in Nise Episode 8 is all over the place in anime. It's nothing new, and it's nothing fresh, and it's nowhere near worth the insane levels of hype that this is episode is getting, imo.
That really does make me feel that our difference in perspective may be insurmountable; it feels to me like we're talking about a different subject entirely. What I saw in this episode seems to be entirely different from what you saw (even having technically "seen" the same thing), so I guess it stands to reason that our perspective would differ. I can only leave it at that.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:51   Link #308
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the best anime episode ive seen all year ^^
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:10   Link #309
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Pretty much everything has been done already.
That's debatable, but it's a long debate, so let's put it aside. Let's go with what you wrote here for argument's sake.

Even if "pretty much everything has been done already", some things have been done a lot more commonly and often than other things have.

Using an element or idea that is very rarely exploited or referenced is a lot more interesting, in my opinion, than using the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book.


You know, if I had come into this thread and saw the usual spread of 10s, 9s, 8s, etc... for an Anime Suki episode thread, and read just the usual level of praise, I'd have thought nothing of it.

But people back on the first few pages of this thread were talking about this episode as though it was the boldest and most daring thing ever (i.e. "outrageous", and similar terms, being thrown around a lot). It's no more bold or daring than an unusually well-produced Backstreet Boys CD, perhaps with some unusual artwork for the CD Jacket to be fair.

Some experienced anime fans like Reckoner and I aren't offended, really, by the imouto fetish of anime. We're simply tired of it. It would now actually be more daring for anime to have a major brother and sister combo without romantic/sexual feelings for one another.


Quote:
I have seen a lot kinkier stuff than any mainstream anime could ever deliver. You could also argue that Karen chose to be aroused by the simple brushing of teeth.
That would just make it sad, as it would mean that she was faking it.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant.
Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.


Quote:
It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend.
That committed relationship with his girlfriend is precisely why I don't find it interesting. I really doubt this series is going to seriously challenge the Hitagi/Araragi pairing (although I'm prepared to be corrected on that if readers of later novels know something that I don't - feel free to PM me if I'm wrong here).


Quote:
The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.
That's probably an assumption on your part, Sol. It may well have no significant impact on the rest of the story.


Quote:
However, to write these scenes off and say they have nothing to do with the overall greater picture of development is simply inaccurate.
How do you know that? Seriously, how? If you know something from the later novels that I don't know, then please PM me about it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:21   Link #310
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i'm re-watching nise 8 for the 50th time now
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:27   Link #311
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Coyote View Post
I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)
I understood both actually, and I mentioned it:
Quote:
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.
SHAFT being SHAFT on the toothbrush aside, the whole episode developed Araragi and Karen's relationship drastically. Previous to the Karen Bee incident, the two did not have the best of relationship. After the toothbrush incident, the two still don't have the best of relationship, but for a completely different reason.

I believe up to that point, Araragi was telling the truth when he told Hitagi that he wasn't a siscon. A lolicon perhaps, but he did not see his sister as a target for sexual attraction. After that incident, the two became very close. Uncomfortably close for other people.

The start of the episode also showed that Karen had changed some in her relationship with her brother. She was still brash and forceful, but for whatever reason, was looking to help him with something. That helping intent got sidetracked when he brought up Kanbaru, which brought up the toothbrush game, which drastically altered the dynamic between them.

As an aside, I would have preferred to have some hot AraragixHitagi action instead of this, but Nisio Isin wrote this for himself, and SHAFT brilliantly animated it for themselves. It's another thing I find amusing in this discussion, the whole pandering to the audience. I think SHAFT knows their audience, but I really think they went over the top on adapting this because dammit, they WANT to draw hawt toothbrush action porn.

Quote:
And in case I might be misunderstood again: I don't consider these dialogues anything past the gag/sexual innuendo level. Surely a good deal of people can appreciate that though. I, for one, didn't feel that much of "interaction" past the fanservice ploy / silliness amusement. Granted, if people are fine with that, that's cool. That's just something I'm not convinced due to the points explained above, and that's not because "I didn't get the joke".
The "didn't get the joke" is an over generalization on my part, which as RelentlessFlame said, I try to rationalize with why someone would react vehemently to something that I see as over the top absurdist humor. I post something, you post a reply and more than likely neither of us will be closer to understanding the other.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place.
*snip*
(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... )
But what fun would a peaceful forum be?
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:34   Link #312
zarqu
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's debatable, but it's a long debate, so let's put it aside. Let's go with what you wrote here for argument's sake.
Yes, I know. It was sort of an unfair thing to say, really. I was merely trying to point out that I don't get overly excited that easily, either. In the internet you get a chance to throw these grand remarks around. Sorry!

Quote:
That would just make it sad, as it would mean that she was faking it.
Yes. Sad in the way that she was so hopelessly craving for her brother's... special attention As for the whole "stupidity" of the fetish, well. I liked what I saw It's not so much the actual brushing of the teeth, as it is Koyomi's realization that he wants to have sex with his sister, or at least the desire explore further, that made the scene interesting for me.

Quote:
It would now actually be more daring for anime to have a major brother and sister combo without romantic/sexual feelings for one another.
Possibly. I have been out of the loop, meaning that I haven't followed every new anime for a while.

Is blood-related incest really so mainstream now that we are getting tired of it? Last anime I watched which dealt with it was Yosuga no Sora. Complexes are an another matter, but to actually act out those desires. We have seen incestuous couples before (OreImo, implied, and Black Lagoon with the twins etc.), but I'm not ready to dismiss it as a boring trope. Especially when this series is concerned.

And a small disclaimer if it wasn't obvious: I'm not what you could call "an experienced fan". Only a couple of years under the belt etc.

Quote:
But people back on the first few pages of this thread were talking about this episode as though it was the boldest and most daring thing ever (i.e. "outrageous", and similar terms, being thrown around a lot).
I have to resort to the old adage of "your mileage may vary." Actually, our mileage will no doubt vary Also, I'm not a native speaker, so I like to throw grand adjectives like "glorious" around a lot. I'd wager that after you have spent enough time in the internet (which I think you have), you learn to take these things with a big grain of salt. Also, many fans were spoiled about this years ago and the hype had been building up to actually see it animated

Quote:
Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.
Yes. I expressed concern about this very matter a few pages back.

I pretty much agree what you wrote about getting tired of overused fetishes. But what else can I do, as a huge fan of this series, but to get excited when the main character and his sister are about to embark on an incestuous journey?

This series has a lot of fans, so the constant circlejerking will no doubt prove tiring to read through, though. Reality checks (for the fans) are healthy!

Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 18:11.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:02   Link #313
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Yes, I know. It was sort of an unfair thing to say, really. I was merely trying to point out that I don't get overly excited that easily, either. In the internet you get a chance to throw these grand remarks around. Sorry!
It's Ok. Your points have largely been clear, eloquent, and fair.


Quote:
Yes. Sad in the way that she was so hopelessly craving for her brother's... special attention As for the whole "stupidity" of the fetish, well. I liked what I saw
It was very well-drawn/animated, no question.


Quote:


Possibly. I have been out of the loop, meaning that I haven't followed every new anime for a while.

Is blood-related incest really so mainstream now? Last anime I watched which dealt with it was Yosuga no Sora.
All of the following fairly recent anime hint at incestuous desire, if not actual incestuous sex:

Spoiler for Wide-ranging mild spoilers:


That's off the top of my head. I'm almost certainly forgetting some.


Quote:

And a small disclaimer if it wasn't obvious: I'm not what you could call "an experienced fan", really. Only a couple of years under the belt etc.
Gotcha. Well, at that point in my own anime fandom, something like this episode probably would have had more of an impact on me.


Quote:
Also, many fans were spoiled about this years ago and the hype had been building up to actually see it animated
In fairness, that makes sense. I guess that would be a lot of it, but not a factor to me personally as I'm an anime-only viewer.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:03   Link #314
solomon
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I'm too lazy and too jaded to go through this forum and all the criteria......

While fun it seemed like a sort of a wasted episode, that was a big Karen fanservice escapade,

While I am uncomfortable with shameless fanservice in general the prospect of incest in this show, I do admit (grudgingly) that "the sequence" was "engaging" to me, despite my heavy conflict with it....

Other than that, not much else to the ep I am afraid.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:25   Link #315
Grey
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Blarg, Karen breaks my suspension of disbelief. I feel like I need a scene or two of her thoughts leading up to this. Then I'd be able to enjoy it better.

Right now it's too much of a character jump for me. Like Karen is suddenly channeling Nadeko.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:26   Link #316
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, only to clarify what I meant, I certainly didn't expect it in this show, in this form, and to this degree of comedic excess (and the latter was the key for me). But I wonder if this is a bit like the "if you have to explain the joke, it wasn't funny" analogy others have alluded to. I'm not sure. But all I can say is that I have a really hard time relating to a perspective that would say:

That really does make me feel that our difference in perspective may be insurmountable; it feels to me like we're talking about a different subject entirely. What I saw in this episode seems to be entirely different from what you saw (even having technically "seen" the same thing), so I guess it stands to reason that our perspective would differ. I can only leave it at that.
To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series? Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing? Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience? Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?

SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience. That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.
Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning? Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself. The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.

The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush. My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.

Quote:
That committed relationship with his girlfriend is precisely why I don't find it interesting. I really doubt this series is going to seriously challenge the Hitagi/Araragi pairing (although I'm prepared to be corrected on that if readers of later novels know something that I don't - feel free to PM me if I'm wrong here).
I don't expect the final relationship with Koyomi/Hitagi to be challenged in all likelihood by anybody aside from Shinobu, myself. But that doesn't remove all further interactions Araragi has with girls aside from Shinobu and Hitagi of having meaning. As a matter of fact, Hitagi is not even a major character for a large chunk of the novels following this present season. The relationships Araragi has with each of the girls, all have their own meanings in their development.

Quote:
That's probably an assumption on your part, Sol. It may well have no significant impact on the rest of the story.
As I've detailed above, this is an issue of what in the Bakemonogatari series you decide to deem "significant"; though as for what is likely the most successful way of enjoying the series, the answer should probably be "everything and nothing".

Quote:
How do you know that? Seriously, how? If you know something from the later novels that I don't know, then please PM me about it.
The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:27   Link #317
~Yami~
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Perfect 10

i will never look at a toothbrush the same way again.
Indeed

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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Well. I think it's pretty clear. After Tsukihi had left:

And after that we see them getting close, almost kissing, the toothbrush flashes, and they fall together.
thanks God.... if it's only another toothbrush scene then it's okay.... I thought it will be more than that
honestly, this is more realistic than what's happening in previous episode... I don't believe that Araragi had sex with Hitagi that night but in this episode, somehow I believe they're doing more than brushing teeth after Tsukihi left

10/10.... what else.... I don't really support incest route but Karen is too adorable... so, if you help someone to solve their irregularities, they will fall on you...

I wonder why Karen want to meet Kanbaru... don't tell me if she has a 'yuri' fetish too....

new technique acquired = toothbrush....
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:37   Link #318
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Blarg, Karen breaks my suspension of disbelief. I feel like I need a scene or two of her thoughts leading up to this. Then I'd be able to enjoy it better.

Right now it's too much of a character jump for me. Like Karen is suddenly channeling Nadeko.
I thought the episode made it quite clear. She was trying to butter him up before asking for a favor, by being the cute submissive sister she thought he'd like. The whole incident was caused by her receiving the photos on her phone that proved that Koyomi was friends with Kanbaru. As soon as her seduction and groveling failed she went into "attack mode" which shows what her true intentions were the entire time.

Neither of them had any serious romantic intentions for the other until the toothbrush scene started.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:48   Link #319
Gohan78
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I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original; I would have never thought of a toothbrush as an adult toy before.

That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke.
Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.

I also can't believe that some commenters are calling that scene "character development".
People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.

The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.

Quote:
Keep this a secret, but to tell you the truth, I had originally written this novel without any plans to publish it. I wrote the entire thing without showing it to anyone. I wanted to hide it away without even making a single printout. In other words, this novel was originally something I was going to keep to myself. So this novel was written 200% to fit my tastes. I very much enjoyed getting to write everything that came from my mind without any arbitrary restrictions.

Yes, there were times when I asked myself, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a professional!” But I think there’s a certain charm to approaching writing as if I were an amateur.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:50   Link #320
zarqu
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's off the top of my head. I'm almost certainly forgetting some.
Quote:
Gotcha. Well, at that point in my own anime fandom, something like this episode probably would have had more of an impact on me.
Yes. I have watched most shows in that list. My point is not that it's anything new or, gasp, shocking. The special pleading I'm engaging in is from a fan's point of view. I'm excited precisely because it's happening in this very show and to these very characters. Do I like to, perhaps overly so, to glorify it in these episode threads? Yes!

By they way. In my mind I'm drawing a strict line between blood-related and non-blood-related incest. Blood-related being more interesting. It might be an unfair criteria, since adopted siblings can, and most likely do, develop psychological ties as strong as real siblings. The taboo is stronger with real siblings, I think, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience?
The choice of BGM and its effect was particularly strong for me. I had this eerie feel throughout the scene. Then I remembered why. Kubrick really knew how to use music.

A Clockwork Orange - The Thieving Magpie.

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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.
Well. I choose (naively, you could argue) to believe Koyomi in this case when he says that after the incident "they have been getting along a little better". This was expressed differentily in the novel, I think.

Quote:
The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published.
Interesting thoughts here that do make sense, given the content. I'm interested to see Nisio's best shot at mental masturbation, then.

Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 19:13.
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