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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 165 75.34%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 10.05%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 4.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 1.37%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.37%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 1.37%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.46%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 2.74%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-26, 19:03   Link #321
relentlessflame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke.
Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.
Here's that difference in perspective again. To me, it was all a big joke. The joke is in the increasing absurdity of the situation, and the way they exaggerated the eroticism so much over something seemingly-innocuous like toothbrushing. Combined with the carnivalesque music, it was the very picture of absurdity. They deliberately play the "incest" and "erotic" angles to increase the tension and "this feels so wrong" sense, and the whole thing becomes "how far are they going to take this?" It kept getting worse and worse (and thus funnier and funnier), and when Tsukihi walked in (and given the way that played out, complete with Looney Toons breaking of the wall) that was just the apex of an increasingly hilarious joke, only to begin the climb again with the "puppets on strings" carnival-music-playing ending.

I don't think that's an attempt to "sugarcoat" the scene, but it's a way of trying to explain how it felt to me when I watched it. If it weren't for the extremely over-the-top eroticism and the incestuous undertones, I'm not sure if the "joke" (the way I saw it, at least) would even have been funny and then maybe it would just be "poorly-disguised softcore porn". But I suppose you could say this is a sort of "black" sense of humour.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:12   Link #322
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.
Well, this explains alot. No wonder Hitagi is so submissive (to Hanekawa) and Shinobu is so talkative and Karen and Araragi have psuedo sex.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:15   Link #323
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Not really, I have no idea how true this is, but it rather unlikely
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:23   Link #324
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Well, I believe the source is this one.

http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemono...thors-comments

From the blog post, regarding author's notes translation: "It's a Japanese to Korean to English translation, so please excuse any bad wording or errors. I believe I got the main message correct."

edit: Read through it.

Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 19:53.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:29   Link #325
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It's a link, people don't have to click it if they don't want to be spoiled. Although I didn't notice any spoilers while I was reading it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:41   Link #326
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Glad it didn't turn out to me Blu-ray onry or something considering how popular the scene was before it was even animated.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:50   Link #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Well, I believe the source is this one.

http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemono...thors-comments

From the blog post: "It's a Japanese to Korean to English translation, so please excuse any bad wording or errors. I believe I got the main message correct."

edit: Read through it.
So he wrote the thing without any pretense or ulterior motive, that explains why 90% appreciate it

Amateurish work in any level or field easily beats professional
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:58   Link #328
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If he honestly did write it for himself, it would be a treat to actually read it. To gaze into the mind of the pervert, so to speak

Watching Nise will be somewhat more interesting. As I said, I'd love to see Nisio's best shot at his mental masturbation.

I shall remain skeptical. He seems honest here, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nisio
I also thank you the readers for bearing with this novel filled with my dumb stories written without much care.
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:06   Link #329
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Lynch made Eraserhead for his own gratification, yet it is one of the best films I have ever watched in life. Appealing to the masses should not be the objective of any artist, but they can not live outside a society that will have very vocal critics enforcing their ideals, despite themselves not being able to contribute in any way. Actually, self-centered and honest work yields better results when viewed without the intervention of middle men who tell people what to think... which is kind of the problem I have (and probably) others have with 5 posters throughout Nise- and keeps away several others from the threads and forum
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:12   Link #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
About "not getting the joke": You can get a joke and still not find it funny. Take a racist joke for example (not saying this episode is anywhere near that; just using this to demonstrate a point). I can understand what such a racist joke is getting at, but not find it funny.


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In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series?
No doubt.


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Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing?
No. I honestly think this is a bit naive. My suspicion is that Nishio's enjoyment came primarily (if not solely) from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages.


Quote:
Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience?
I found the BGM extremely cheesy. It thankfully lowered the squick level, but also made it impossible for me to take this scene seriously at all, undermining any significant character development that could be read into it. The Looney Tunes-esque bit certainly didn't help here.


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Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?
Given what Nise has been like all along, and given how overused the imouto fetish is, I honestly don't get people being that surprised over this episode. Nise has been very fanservice-driven almost all season, some of it rather absurd. Episode 8 amplifies it and takes it to a new extreme, but it doesn't represent a startling event given what came before, imo.


Quote:
SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience.
Clearly not for some of us, which is why I felt your initial post on this thread was a bit over-the-top.


Quote:
That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?
I think there's justification in being critical of the perceived overhyping of something.

I read some of this thread before I watched the episode. It honestly left me expecting Yosuga no Sora.


Quote:
Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning?
Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.


Quote:
Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself.
There's some truth to this, depending on the depth and quality of the dialogue. This episode had decent dialogue, but it certainly wasn't one of Nishio's best handling of dialogue, or even close to it, imo.


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The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.
And what will those repercussions amount to? A joke here, a joke there, or something of actual real significance?


Quote:
The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush.
If you like that sort of thing. Clearly not everybody does.

I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.


Quote:
My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.
I'm still waiting for that PM proving this, Sol.


Given what others have wrote about Nishio's approach to Nise, it's perhaps possible that this part of the Monogatari series might be the exception to the rule for him, and he won't go back to it often.


Quote:
I don't expect the final relationship with Koyomi/Hitagi to be challenged in all likelihood by anybody aside from Shinobu, myself. But that doesn't remove all further interactions Araragi has with girls aside from Shinobu and Hitagi of having meaning.
No, but it makes implied romantic/sexual situations between Koyomi and most of the female cast a big, pointless tease to me. They can have interactions outside of that specific context, though.


Quote:
As I've detailed above, this is an issue of what in the Bakemonogatari series you decide to deem "significant"; though as for what is likely the most successful way of enjoying the series, the answer should probably be "everything and nothing".
So you have to engage in paradoxical thinking in order to enjoy the Monogatari series. That's good to know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original;
Calling it original is giving it too much credit, imo. I'm sure that toothbrush-as-sex-toy has been tried before Nise. It is mildly creative because its certainly unusual, but calling it "original" is really stretching it.

And while this vehicle may be unusual, what the vehicle is being used to convey could hardly be more commonplace in the modern anime world.


Quote:
That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke.
In fairness to them, that BGM is very cheesy. It's much more comedy music than serious romance/sex scene music, imo.


Quote:
Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.
It's sexual innuendo comedy, imo. I usually don't like it when it gets to this level because "heavy sexual arousal" and "laughter" are two very different things for me, and don't easily mix together.


Quote:
People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.
Agreed.
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:26   Link #331
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Shinobu!?

Shinobu has stated that she can feel Araragi's pain...

What about pleasure!?!?!
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:36   Link #332
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.
If I'm allowed to be awfully blunt, I think this is bleeding obvious in any discussion with mature people.

I, personally, don't feel a need to reiterate this. But then again, I might not be one of those "bigger fans" you refer to

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Lynch made Eraserhead for his own gratification, yet it is one of the best films I have ever watched in life.
Yes. Now that I think about it, it's a very strange thing to publically say that you wrote something "entirely for yourself". Who were you writing for before? Certainly not the masses?

I think Nisio was just stressing his concern that his own (perhaps sexual) fantasies don't make that great of a story for a Light Novel. Maybe they don't, but I'm ready to fully indulge.
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:44   Link #333
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Given the course of the discussion I want to chime in and add that like others I too found the episode very bad not because I'm on some sort of moral crusade (I've long since accepted that shows like this will pander to a certain subsection of fans), but because I just legitimately did not find anything amusing or very clever about it all.

I really don't understand how it's so hard for some people to grasp that people can not like an episode of a show despite it being an accurate portrayal of source material events (not all shows are even adaptations keep in mind so this sort of thing should not be a "get out of jail free card" and this is before all the other problems with this type of thinking come into play) or that they can comprehend the attempt at humour and still not find it funny. I just really didn't see much worth getting really excited over and I found the pacing extremely poor and the attempt at a gag drawn out. That's really all it came down too.
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:54   Link #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarqu View Post

I, personally, don't feel a need to reiterate this. But then again, I might not be one of those "bigger fans" you refer to
Don't worry, you're not, lol.

I will say that I like how a couple posters wrote that they'd prefer a scene of the same nature with Hitagi, which I think shows at least some understanding of where some of the more critical posters (like myself) are coming from. I would also prefer a scene like this if it was with Hitagi, partly because I'd see it as part of ongoing romance development.


Quote:
Yes. Now that I think about it, it's a very strange thing to publically say that you wrote something "entirely for yourself". Who were you writing for before? Certainly not the masses?
What I take from that is that Nishio was trying to craft good stories that more or less followed the general rules of thumb of good storytelling back when he wrote Bake (and if so, I think he succeeded very nicely there). But with Nise he's "letting his hair down", so to speak, and he just decided to go totally wild like a fanfic writer sometimes does.

A lot of fanfic writers write "just to have fun" rather than to write something that they think will be well-received by fellow fans. I know that I myself sometimes incorporate elements into my own fanfic writing that's just for personal shits and giggles.
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Old 2012-02-26, 20:58   Link #335
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I found the episode amusing because it's rare to see Koyomi ever do something for himself and when he finally does, it's to get weird with his sister. The reactions of the characters made it special though.
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:01   Link #336
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What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........

LOL at the poll.
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:05   Link #337
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Gentlemen (and Ladies). I do believe that we have just witnessed some sort of pinnacle in comedy fanservice.
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:12   Link #338
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........

LOL at the poll.
You're not alone with that sentiment. This episode is probably the most polarizing for this season, but I'm going to hang on to this show till the end; only then I'll hand out my final judgment.
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:16   Link #339
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How can 115 vs 5 be polarizing What would 50 vs 50 then be
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:19   Link #340
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I didn't think there was a need to explain an episode like this other than. "...WTF"

Triple R and a few others are right - Just because some people don't like a particular element, character, episode, etc., there's no need to try and 'convert' them, persay or even try to explain it to them (unless they ask for it). They understand what happened - they watched the same episode we all did. We all just picked up different things from it.

And no, I'm not aiming a mallet at anyone, just my $0.02

The only real thing I got from this episode, other than not-so-good ideas about toothbrushes, was that Koyomi and Karen have reached an entirely different plateau of awareness for each other thanks to this. I got my own expounding theories on why it happened, why Koyomi chose a toothbrush of all things, and why Karen got what Nadeko tried so hard to get ( ), but I don't feel like writing all of it right now.

If anyone wants to compare 'theories' that's fine by me - would be interesting to read what other's picked up on at the very least. ...maybe I will go read at least this chapter in the novel to see what I'm missing out on.
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