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Old 2012-02-26, 05:17   Link #61
Retcon_Man
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At this point, Kishi can change the story so easily. It can go both ways, depending on what direction he wants Sasuke to take later on after this confrontation. Does he want Sasuke to hate more, or have less hate? Two options, 1.) [Place in certain scenario that leads to the truth of what the Uchiha clan was about to do, most likely something evil. Placing fault on the Uchiha clan above all else.] 2.) Itachi confessing that it was just ethnic cleansing for precautionary reasons, where Konoha was trying to avoid any possible conflict, and the Uchiha clan had rights to be upset over their predicament in the past.

Option 1 will lead to Sasuke having not much reason to have so much hatred, and him changing towards good just becomes more inevitable. Option 2 leads to Sasuke having more hatred, more reasons to hate, and therefore, not changing at all, until maybe he fights Naruto, where he'll receive the only peace, where there was only one person in the world that cared for him. *fart*

Kishi will choose Option 1. To redeem Sasuke. For the process from evil to good to have gone through certain stages, where it will seem that Naruto was the cause of the change in Sasuke.
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Old 2012-02-26, 07:18   Link #62
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
from my understanding, they wanted to take over konoha. they wanted the senju out that's for sure. but whether their intentions were noble or not, itachi still saw it as unnecessary bloodshed. the uchiha uprising would still cause a lot of destruction and might possibly ignite the next ninja war. he feared the consequences so much that he was willing to sacrifice his own clan just to keep the peace.
I know that Itachi feared the consequences of such action but that doesn't change what I said : the Uchiha had no intention to destroy their village nor harm the rest of the villagers. They felt threatened -with reason- by their governement leaders and intended to remove them from power.
The fact that it might have triggered a chain of events leading toward a new war doesn't mean they wanted it to happen.
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I highly doubt the Uchiha clan would try to usurp power, had they been left alone. They were provoked enough to harbour a grudge against people, who were afraid of the possibility of being overtaken, when that was minimal. IMO there was a better chance of the Uchiha clan bailing out of a village that viewed them as strangers rather than trying to become the prevalent force in it.
I find that highly unlikely and in fact that would make them de facto ennemy of the state as well. Konoha was their home too, they wouldn't have exiled themselves without a fight.
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Old 2012-02-26, 09:22   Link #63
xKeir
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Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

Wasn't it because of the Idiot Tobi who used the Kyuubi to attack the village that created a rift between the Uchiha's and Konoha causing Konoha to become suspicious of them and thus making all the problems arise.

The part before that, about Senju & Uchiha merging and Hashirama mistreating the Uchiha was purely a fairy tail made up by Tobi to convinced Sasuke that the Uchiha were screwed by Konoha, yes..?
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Old 2012-02-26, 10:58   Link #64
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I highly doubt the Uchiha clan would try to usurp power, had they been left alone. They were provoked enough to harbour a grudge against people, who were afraid of the possibility of being overtaken, when that was minimal. IMO there was a better chance of the Uchiha clan bailing out of a village that viewed them as strangers rather than trying to become the prevalent force in it.
hmmm...maybe. but the uchiha was a proud clan. they were held on par with the senju before konoha was built. hashirama and madara were considered equals. but then the konoha system took root and even though hashirama was a charismatic leader who treated them with respect, tobirama was not quick to trust them. and then there's the fact that all the hokage were chosen from either the senju ranks or those who were close to them. the uchiha felt betrayed and overshadowed by the senju. they felt that they no longer held any authority in konoha and they didn't agree with how the village was being run. i believe that they merely wanted to take back what they felt was rightfully theirs and the only way they could do that was to start an uprising and uprisings usually have one goal, to overthrow the current power and take over.
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:25   Link #65
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by xKeir View Post
The part before that, about Senju & Uchiha merging and Hashirama mistreating the Uchiha was purely a fairy tail made up by Tobi to convinced Sasuke that the Uchiha were screwed by Konoha, yes..?
it's not a fairy tale. the uchiha and senju made a pact and joined forces to create konoha, but notice how an uchiha was never hokage or one of the top officials in the village. they had no say in konoha's government and their positions were marginalized. they were even forced to the outskirts of the village and given a false title as konoha's police force when they actually held no power and the anbu forces clearly had more control over policing issues. even if the senju meant well they didn't go about their 'partnership' the right way. I can see why the uchiha were disgruntled.
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:26   Link #66
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's not a fairy tale. the uchiha and senju made a pact and joined forces to create konoha, but notice how an uchiha was never hokage or one of the top officials in the village. they had no say in konoha's government and their positions were marginalized. they were even forced to the outskirts of the village and given a false title as konoha's police force when they actually held no power and the anbu forces clearly had more control over policing issues. even if the senju meant well they didn't go about their 'partnership' the right way. I can see why the uchiha were disgruntled.
To be fair, we've never seen a Hyuuga, Nara or Akimichi acting as hokage or top offical either (at least until Shika's dad in the recent war). From what we've seen, the kages of most village are usually a groomed successor and often family member of a former kage. That's hardly unique to Konoha and it's more practical tradition than any kind of forced discrimination.

But obviously, the Uchiha weren't privy to the candid issues of Konoha's government once segregation was enacted. That's why it was so important to Sasuke's dad that Itachi to be placed into ANBU since they work directly under the Hokage.
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:32   Link #67
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I wonder if Kishi is going to put a lot of the blame on Tobirama? It was he and not Hashirama that established the ninja system that we know today. The academies, the chuunin exams, the ANBU, and really the concept of a ninja village. All things that continued the cycle of hate and Naruto has to change. He also created the Konoha police specifically for the Uchiha. Which according to Tobi/Madara/whoever was not a sign of trust, but really so the Uchiha could be kept in place while the clans connected with the Senju rose in power. This really cut off the Uchiha from the rest of the village and eventually played a huge part in the attempted rebellion many years later. Some of what Tobi told Sasuke is going to be the truth.

He also was a great influence on Danzou and the two elders Utatane and Mitokado. All three are militant and supported the Uchiha massacre. While it could be argued that Hiruzen was more with the thinking of Hashirama. And of course he created Edo Tensei. Which no matter how you spin it, is a pretty heinous technique. Why would he dabble in something like that?

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
To be fair, we've never seen a Hyuuga, Nara or Akimichi acting as hokage or top offical either (at least until Shika's dad in the recent war).
Shika's dad is Konoha's jonin commander and on the Fire Daiymo's council. He outranks Kakashi and Gai. This was before he became chief strategist of the war. And it is the Nara's nature to avoid work which comes with high ranking positions. And who knows? Maybe Shikaku and Shikamaru were the first highly intelligent ones? The Sarutobi have become Hokage and the Nara clan is close with them. So I don't think they would overlook a Nara if they were good enough to be Hokage.

The Hyuuga main house isolate themselves, but don't have the same issues with Konoha as the Uchiha. The other Hyuuga are very much part of the village and have been shown part of numerous Konoha teams. And let's be honest, compared to what we are seeing in this war, the Hyuuga weren't powerful enough anyway. So you can understand why they never rose in position. And the Akimichi mostly take guard roles.

Some Uchiha were good enough to be Hokage and hold high positions. But they didn't. That was intentional.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:23   Link #68
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
He also was a great influence on Danzou and the two elders Utatane and Mitokado. All three are militant and supported the Uchiha massacre. While it could be argued that Hiruzen was more with the thinking of Hashirama. And of course he created Edo Tensei. Which no matter how you spin it, is a pretty heinous technique. Why would he dabble in something like that?
Well, Minato had technique that summons a shinigami who swallows its victims souls. That's pretty occult, but Minato...pretty nice guy all-around.
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Shika's dad is Konoha's jonin commander and on the Fire Daiymo's council. He outranks Kakashi and Gai. This was before he became chief strategist of the war. And it is the Nara's nature to avoid work which comes with high ranking positions. And who knows? Maybe Shikaku and Shikaamru were the first highly intelligent ones? The Hyuuga main house isolate themselves, but don't have the same issues with Konoha as the Uchiha. The other Hyuuga are very much part of the village and have been shown part of numerous Konoha teams. And let's be honest, compared to what we are seeing in this war, the Hyuuga weren't powerful enough anyway. So you can understand why they never rose in position. And the Akimichi mostly take guard roles.
Shika's father served on the council, yet he was not in the consideration to become Hokage, it was Kakashi who was first choice. Shika's dad is Konoha's jounin commander but doesn't officially outrank Kakashi, it just means he serves on the council as a represenative. In the war, Kakashi is a general and Shikaku is chief stategist like you said. They are of equal rank, Shikaku is just responsible for coordinating all the divisions. And yes, the Hyuuga shown to be in numerous teams. The Uchiha weren't? Obito was part of Kakashi's team and the 2nd Hokage's team also had an Uchiha member.

Anyways, the clans do have roles that they are specially suited for and are usually shown serving those roles. However, we haven't seen anything that suggests the Senju specifically keep any clans out of power. Just because Shikaku Nara serves as top advisor, but not considered for Hokage doesn't mean Naras can't become hokage. Until stated otherwise, I believe it was the same with Uchiha. Tobirama was mistrustful of them and not honest about the true purpose of placing them in charge of Konoha's police force but he didn't oppress them. Prior to their segregation, there's not much example of the Uchiha being treated as 2nd-class citizens in any way.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:41   Link #69
itachi-san314
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Hokages have to be extremely strong. There haven't been any Nara's, Hyuuga's, Akimichi's, Yamanaka's, etc... who have ever fit that bill. Lord Hyuuga was impressed with Neji as a genin and called him a genius of the clan. That kind of power just isn't going to cut it for hokage. It's not like those clans had possible candidates and were politically driven out by Senju's and their closer clans like Sarutobi. It's just that they didn't have the power. Those clans most likely joined Konoha for the protection that the village could give them and then they mutually benefit by working together in their squads as jounins at best.

The Uchiha on the other hand 'formed' Konoha with the Senju. It was an agreement between the 2 'strongest' ninja clans before the merger into villages. The Uchiha have extremely strong blood like the Senju and have no doubt had several viable candidates for hokage over the generations in terms of strength and intelligence. And they were not only put out of that position by the senju, but also were not even brought on as top advisors in the government. it was clearly a slap in the face and cause for worry among their clan's leaders.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:28   Link #70
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Well, Minato had technique that summons a shinigami who swallows its victims souls. That's pretty occult, but Minato...pretty nice guy all-around.
Mostly created to seal a tailed beast. So it had a practical and positive use. Nothing like that can be said for Edo Tensei. That is something Orochimaru would be expected to come up with.

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Shika's father served on the council, yet he was not in the consideration to become Hokage, it was Kakashi who was first choice.
Kakashi wasn't exactly first choice. It was only Shikaku who nominated Kakashi to block Danzou, who he knew would nominate himself. Shikaku could of nominated himself. Then he would of been considered.

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Shika's dad is Konoha's jounin commander but doesn't officially outrank Kakashi, it just means he serves on the council as a represenative. In the war, Kakashi is a general and Shikaku is chief stategist like you said. They are of equal rank, Shikaku is just responsible for coordinating all the divisions.
Actually being jonin commander means he does outrank Kakashi. I imagine it is an elected position by the jonin. Being elected means you represent the jonin, the backbone of Konoha's military, on the council. You also travel with the Hokage when she meets with the other Kage as was shown later when Tsunade returned. Shikaku went with her and not Kakashi.
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And yes, the Hyuuga shown to be in numerous teams. The Uchiha weren't? Obito was part of Kakashi's team and the 2nd Hokage's team also had an Uchiha member
I meant we have seen Hyuuga on various barrier squads. As well as acting as scouts for other squads. They were integrated into the village. While the Uchiha were mostly kept part of the Konoha police. Even someone as talented as Shisui. It was actually a big deal for Itachi to become an ANBU. His father saw it as a chance for the Uchiha to prove themselves. The way they were treated was a huge part of the planned rebellion.
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:38   Link #71
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This argument would be sorted out if we knew where Itachi and Sasuke's parents were the night Naruto was born. It seem all the Uchihas were busy with something while the village was under attack. They didn't attempt to help in anyway either. And they weren't hiding because the kids were out in the open. What could be so damn important when there's a huge disaster happening in the garden and the first thing to do is to leave Uchiha children sightsighting in the porch?
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Old 2012-02-26, 16:50   Link #72
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Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that all the Uchiha were at their secret meeting place when the attack occurred, and had no idea what was going on? I was under the impression Tobi had said something like that. If there were any powerful Uchiha in the village at the time of the attack then the kyuubi would've been nullified quite easily. If they were at the meeting place and Tobi had this information it would be the perfect opportunity to attack.
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:04   Link #73
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Tobi also said the Kyubii attack was a "natural disaster". We were shown him casting the summoning technique.
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:26   Link #74
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Just because he lies doesn't mean that everything he says are lies. Other than that, like I said I'm not sure if Tobi said something like that or not.
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Old 2012-02-26, 17:48   Link #75
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Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that all the Uchiha were at their secret meeting place when the attack occurred, and had no idea what was going on? I was under the impression Tobi had said something like that. If there were any powerful Uchiha in the village at the time of the attack then the kyuubi would've been nullified quite easily. If they were at the meeting place and Tobi had this information it would be the perfect opportunity to attack.
We don't know where they were. At that time the village had nothing against the Uchiha, so there was no reason for them to hold secret meetings to plot against the village or something like that. However it still can be that they were in some unexpected meeting, and that could be because of Tobi, maybe this Tobi guy approached them in some way, or Tobi made sure they are not present so they can be blamed later.

The Uchiha couldn't have done anything against the Kyuubi, nobody could ever control it, only Madara. And also Tobi, for still unknown reasons he can do it. The Uchiha didn't know about all this, look at Sasuke's mother, she was chatting with Kushina without any worries, she was simply a happy mother and that's all. But in Sasuke's flashback they are not a happy family any more, everything has changed after that attack.
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Old 2012-02-26, 18:08   Link #76
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The Uchiha couldn't have done anything against the Kyuubi, nobody could ever control it, only Madara. And also Tobi, for still unknown reasons he can do it.
Why do you say that? Sasuke could suppress the kyuubi's chakra while it was still in Naruto; it's possible he could have controlled it fully if it was free. According to Madara the only requirement is the sharingan. Theoretically even Kakashi could be able to control it. Even if it requires a very powerful sharingan, if we take Shisui as an example there could be more Uchiha with powerful eyes that we've never heard about.

The sharingan's ability to control the kyuubi should be common knowledge among the senior Uchiha clan members, even if they're not powerful enough to achieve it. Even if they weren't meeting to plot rebellion, they could still be going to their secret location for clan gatherings, to discuss their politics, to pass on the knowledge from the tablets to Uchiha that become adults.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:27   Link #77
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Why do you say that? Sasuke could suppress the kyuubi's chakra while it was still in Naruto; it's possible he could have controlled it fully if it was free. According to Madara the only requirement is the sharingan. Theoretically even Kakashi could be able to control it. Even if it requires a very powerful sharingan, if we take Shisui as an example there could be more Uchiha with powerful eyes that we've never heard about.

The sharingan's ability to control the kyuubi should be common knowledge among the senior Uchiha clan members, even if they're not powerful enough to achieve it. Even if they weren't meeting to plot rebellion, they could still be going to their secret location for clan gatherings, to discuss their politics, to pass on the knowledge from the tablets to Uchiha that become adults.
I remember the manga says Madara was the only one who could tame they kyuubi. Do you really think that the power to control such monster is something that non-kage level people can do? That would not make sense to me. If it was so easy then the sharingan eyes would be the most wanted items by other villages, they would do anything to be able to safely control those beasts since they sacrificed so many people and yet only a very few like Bee could ever be able to use their demons to actually fight kage level battles instead of just sealing it and do nothing with it while thousands of their ninja die on the battlefields.

The other thing i remember is that the secret Uchiha shrine was a forgotten and probably forbidden place, since it contained things like killing your best friend and brother in order to obtain more power and that is what the Uchiha stopped doing when they stopped following Madara's bloody rules. My guess is that they began to read those secrets (parts that they were able to read) only after Tobi's attack and when they began to plan a revolt, they needed power to take over a village so it's logical that to obtain such power they would have to do what has to be done. But we need some final flashback here, since both Itachi and his best friend obtained the MS and they surely didn't kill anyone in order to do it. And so did Kakashi too. It's funny that the two Uchiha who could have lead the revolt and taken over the village, since they both had MS, did turn against the clan.
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Old 2012-02-26, 19:30   Link #78
Sabaku Kyu
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Kakashi wasn't exactly first choice. It was only Shikaku who nominated Kakashi to block Danzou, who he knew would nominate himself. Shikaku could of nominated himself. Then he would of been considered.
Even when Tsunade and Jiraiya talk before the battle with Pein they said Kakashi was likely next in line to become Hokage then Naruto. But I agree Shikaku probably could've been a candidate had he wanted. That's my point in fact, even though it kind of seems like I'm arguing the opposite. Shikaku Nara is particularly suited for the role of strategist/advisor and that's likely why he serves that role instead of trying to be Hokage--not because there's some agenda against the Nara or any other clan. The fact that the Uchiha along with most of the other clans not shown with members as part of Konoha's top brass doesn't mean they were actively kept out. The clans all have part to play that keeps the village strong.

Quote:
I meant we have seen Hyuuga on various barrier squads. As well as acting as scouts for other squads. They were integrated into the village. While the Uchiha were mostly kept part of the Konoha police. Even someone as talented as Shisui. It was actually a big deal for Itachi to become an ANBU. His father saw it as a chance for the Uchiha to prove themselves. The way they were treated was a huge part of the planned rebellion.
Well we see them in these roles because the Hyuuga clan, unlike the Uchiha, still exists. We don't know how much the Uchiha served in Konoha's day-to-day operations. Most of them were on the police force, true, but it's not said they were strictly limited to that job as they've been shown as part of other teams in past flashbacks. Itachi getting into ANBU was a big deal because ANBU serve directly under the Hokage and would give the clan a direct connection to Konoha's authority, not because the Uchiha never served any role outside policing.

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Why do you say that? Sasuke could suppress the kyuubi's chakra while it was still in Naruto; it's possible he could have controlled it fully if it was free. According to Madara the only requirement is the sharingan. Theoretically even Kakashi could be able to control it. Even if it requires a very powerful sharingan, if we take Shisui as an example there could be more Uchiha with powerful eyes that we've never heard about.
Nope. It's mentioned MS is needed to control the Kyuubi during Sasuke's fight with Itachi
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Old 2012-02-26, 21:20   Link #79
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Madara and Tobi has controlled the Kyubi in the past at different times. Meaning the Kyubi has attack Konoha atleast twice now. They are both clearly different people. Since Madara was the only one confirmed to control the Kyubi in the past, Tobi must be using Madara's eyes for his Kyubi-attack on the night of Naruto's birth. The Rinnegan that Tobi gave Nagato should also be Madara's EMS that evolved into the Rinnegan which said he activated moments before he died. I remember when Sasuke first implanted Itachi's eyes he said he can feel itach's chakra flowing into him. There, Tobi has both a pair of Kyubi controlling sharingans and the chakra to go along with it. Or maybe im just reading too much into this. :\
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Old 2012-02-27, 00:48   Link #80
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^Technically, any MS can control the Kyuubi. That's kind of the point of the MS. (And Sasuke, being the prodigal child he is, can control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan).
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