[Manga] Naruto Chapter 575 Discussion

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

Madara and Tobi has controlled the Kyubi in the past at different times. Meaning the Kyubi has attack Konoha atleast twice now. They are both clearly different people. Since Madara was the only one confirmed to control the Kyubi in the past, Tobi must be using Madara's eyes for his Kyubi-attack on the night of Naruto's birth. The Rinnegan that Tobi gave Nagato should also be Madara's EMS that evolved into the Rinnegan which said he activated moments before he died. I remember when Sasuke first implanted Itachi's eyes he said he can feel itach's chakra flowing into him. There, Tobi has both a pair of Kyubi controlling sharingans and the chakra to go along with it. Or maybe im just reading too much into this. :\

It seems likely that Nagato has Madara's rinnegan eyes which would mean Tobi can't have Madara's eyes. As EMS is the only eye we've seen turning into rinnegan so Nagato's eye were probably EMS eyes at 1 time.

Judging from Tobi's shairngan space time abilities his sharingan could be a MS or EMS eye and any MS should be able to control Kyubi so he doesn't have to have Madara's eyes.

If Tobi has at least MS he can control the Kyubi when its outside of a human body.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Technically, any MS can control the Kyuubi. That's kind of the point of the MS. (And Sasuke, being the prodigal child he is, can control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan).

I'm sure he can now, but he couldn't back when he fought bee and hachibi with MS. Sasuke's smart, he would have just controlled the 8 tails with MS rather than fight him if it was a possibility. So I don't think any MS can control kyuubi if it cant control hachibi. maybe I'm wrong?

[HiddenMessage]

But didn't Tobi riped the Kyubi out of Naruto's mother with a single regular Sharingan? Doesn't that prove the only thing needed to control the Kyubi or any other Biju is a single 3 outer-dotted Sharingan?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

But didn't Tobi riped the Kyubi out of Naruto's mother with a single regular Sharingan? Doesn't that prove the only thing needed to control the Kyubi or any other Biju is a single 3 outer-dotted Sharingan?

the only thing needed is the power to do it really. sharingan is a tool that helps to an extent, but it really all lies in the actual ninja's genjutsu ability. like zetsu said during the itachi/sasuke fight, sasuke could break out of itachi's MS tech of tsukiomi with just a regular sharingan. they are all just tools in different users' hands who each have differerent capabilities.

for instance, kakashi has MS but I'm positive he can't control the kyuubi, just like sasuke wasnt able to control the hachibi in the past with MS

[strangethought]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

But didn't Tobi riped the Kyubi out of Naruto's mother with a single regular Sharingan? Doesn't that prove the only thing needed to control the Kyubi or any other Biju is a single 3 outer-dotted Sharingan?

I think Tobi just broke the seal and only after the kyubi came out did he start controlling. And the reason that Sasuke couldn't control the Hachibi is because he was inside Bee. If one falls into genjutsu the other would knock him out of it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I'm sure he can now, but he couldn't back when he fought bee and hachibi with MS. Sasuke's smart, he would have just controlled the 8 tails with MS rather than fight him if it was a possibility. So I don't think any MS can control kyuubi if it cant control hachibi. maybe I'm wrong?

You're wrong . Itachi, Sasuke and Tobi (along with backing from the Kages) have all said that the MS can control the Kyuubi. Not all Bijuu, just the Kyuubi. That is the point of the MS, it controls the Kyuubi.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

But didn't Tobi riped the Kyubi out of Naruto's mother with a single regular Sharingan? Doesn't that prove the only thing needed to control the Kyubi or any other Biju is a single 3 outer-dotted Sharingan?

Control means the kyuubi is under a genjutsu just like Manda was under Sasuke's genjutsu. But that doesn't help him if the demon is trapped inside a cage or somewhere else. If a regular sharingan were such a great tool to control demons and all sorts of boss summons then villages would try to kidnap every single Uchiha there is, even Kakashi would be always targeted. Instead of that, the fact is that the one targeted was Kushina Uzumaki and also other clan members like Nagato. The false picture about the sharingan eyes we get is because the only guys who have it in the manga are crazy strong, even Kakashi is so elite that he can magically make his own MS eye from a regular one.

Tobi being able to control the kyuubi without having the MS eye is however quite interesting. But that doesn't mean that random sharingan guys can control legendary creatures that entire ninja villages can't control. It wouldn't make any sense.

[HiddenMessage]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Control means the kyuubi is under a genjutsu just like Manda was under Sasuke's genjutsu. But that doesn't help him if the demon is trapped inside a cage or somewhere else. If a regular sharingan were such a great tool to control demons and all sorts of boss summons then villages would try to kidnap every single Uchiha there is, even Kakashi would be always targeted. Instead of that, the fact is that the one targeted was Kushina Uzumaki and also other clan members like Nagato. The false picture about the sharingan eyes we get is because the only guys who have it in the manga are crazy strong, even Kakashi is so elite that he can magically make his own MS eye from a regular one.

Tobi being able to control the kyuubi without having the MS eye is however quite interesting. But that doesn't mean that random sharingan guys can control legendary creatures that entire ninja villages can't control. It wouldn't make any sense.

Hosts have been controlled along with their demons before with the regular sharingan like the 4th Mizukage.
Who's to say that other countries haven't targeted the Uchiha? Everyone seems to know Kakashi like the back of their own hand since the beginning of the series. Kidnapping ninjas from other villages are extremely difficult. You have to remember that that attempts on Hinata and Kushina was stopped. The current Raikage saw those as high degree failures to his village. It was not something that was brushed off. Lives were ended for failure.
And it doesn't help the kidnappers that each person being targeted is highly capable of fending off attacks. Before the new gen hit puberty, only a handful of people were capable of fighting Kakashi. I think they were more occupied with trying killing him than trying to rake his eye out.
The Uchiha clan was also seperated as well as being guarded by the entire Konoha village. Then you have Comrade-killing-Nins from every village like Kisame that would slaughter and destroy the eyes than give it to other villages. I'm guessing thats Anbu-Roots job for Konoha.
Another reason the Uchiha was seperated while being guarded in Konoha was because the eyes were said to control the Kyuubi. I agree that not all 5 year olds with sharingans can run up to Naruto and control him. But surely a couple have reached the ability to control the beast. Each and every battle-ready member of Uchiha hangs out by that stone tablet with instructions on how to control the Kyuubi like the water coolers in offices.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

You're wrong . Itachi, Sasuke and Tobi (along with backing from the Kages) have all said that the MS can control the Kyuubi. Not all Bijuu, just the Kyuubi. That is the point of the MS, it controls the Kyuubi.

meh. lots of bs has been thrown around about MS, like killing your best friend for instance. I still say that kakashi can't do it despite having MS. if he could, then yamato wouldnt be the one always at naruto's side

[Hasumi]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

But didn't Tobi riped the Kyubi out of Naruto's mother with a single regular Sharingan? Doesn't that prove the only thing needed to control the Kyubi or any other Biju is a single 3 outer-dotted Sharingan?

Maybe, but he was also a bad-ass who targeted the seal when it was at its weakest.

He didn't use the Sharingan to take remove Kurama, he used it to control him after he was removed.

[Pentium]

Question: how come Itachi has his eyes in tack considering they've implanted into Sasuke? Surely he's suppose to be running around with no eyes...

[Kafriel]

For the same reason that Deidara didn't come back in pieces, Edo Tensei shenanigans. Note that Nagato wouldn't have eyes either, since Tobi snatched those too.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Pentium

Question: how come Itachi has his eyes in tack considering they've implanted into Sasuke? Surely he's suppose to be running around with no eyes...

The Edo Tensei body is made from the materials of another person's body. The form is created by the soul of the person being Edo Tensei'd occupying the body, which would logically suggest that it should be whatever the Edo Tensei'd guy remembers his physical body as right before death. This is why Itachi and Nagato both have their eyes and the Third Raikage retains his scar despite having amazing regenerative abilities as a zombie.

[Blaster]

One fact that we can get from this:

You will need either a Sharingan (and upgrades) or Bijuu power to be able to fight properly. Otherwise you will end up useless. Kishi should just save time and let Naruto vs all. Or maybe he prefers to milk his manga by showing how Sharingan > every single skill, brains and strategy, Bijuu > every single skill, brains and strategy, then Bijuu Naruto > Sharingan.

Edo Tensei is not a problem. The problem is does the Edo Tensei'd zombie has a Sharingan or Bijuu?

I doubt Kishi has any more tricks. Time to end the manga.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Blaster

One fact that we can get from this:

You will need either a Sharingan (and upgrades) or Bijuu power to be able to fight properly. Otherwise you will end up useless. Kishi should just save time and let Naruto vs all. Or maybe he prefers to milk his manga by showing how Sharingan > every single skill, brains and strategy, Bijuu > every single skill, brains and strategy, then Bijuu Naruto > Sharingan.

Edo Tensei is not a problem. The problem is does the Edo Tensei'd zombie has a Sharingan or Bijuu?

I doubt Kishi has any more tricks. Time to end the manga.

Onoki, Raikage and Guy don't have sharingan or biju power but they have played a vital part in the war and are all strong enough to give a good fight to a MS user.

I see what you mean though since all the main villains currently have sharingan power now apart from Kabuto who seems to be after Sasuke's sharingan anyway.

[HiddenMessage]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

Maybe, but he was also a bad-ass who targeted the seal when it was at its weakest.

He didn't use the Sharingan to take remove Kurama, he used it to control him after he was removed.

The manga didn't provide us with enough panals but episode 248 clearly showed us that Tobi triggered the effects of his Sharingan and uses its effect to draw the Kyuubi out of his host. The Kyuubi was controlled before he was out in the open.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

Hosts have been controlled along with their demons before with the regular sharingan like the 4th Mizukage.

My point was that it's not the tool but the user that really counts. You have seen Tobi, a super-strong guy do something and you automatically assume that it was because of the sharingan. He also had another sharingan in his other eye, and he made a 10 minute long Izanagi with it, by your logic that would mean anyone with a regular sharingan can get 20 minutes of godmode, or just 10 and still have one eye working. That's just nonsense.

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

Who's to say that other countries haven't targeted the Uchiha?

If that were the case half of the kage subordinates who were at the kage summit would have one sharingan eye, but none of them had, only one of them had a byakugan.

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

Kidnapping ninjas from other villages are extremely difficult.

You are not kidnapping them from their own village, you are killing them while they are on some mission or in a war.

Originally Posted by HiddenMessage

But surely a couple have reached the ability to control the beast. Each and every battle-ready member of Uchiha hangs out by that stone tablet with instructions on how to control the Kyuubi like the water coolers in offices.

There's no proof to anything of this. In fact the only one person who was ever able to control the kyuubi was Madara. He tamed it, he used it, and he lost it to Hashirama, end of story. Also we don't know how many people read the stone tablet, it was considered an important Uchiha secret, they would not just let anyone read it.

BTW i wonder if Kakashi read it and gained some knowledge about how to awaken the MS in his eye, and of course since he is a genius he succeeded doing it in an alternative way. It would make sense, because after Sasuke left the village, and Kakashi was crushed by Itachi's power, it would be logical that Kakashi begins investigating the secrets of the Uchiha. And i think that he knows other things too, and because of that Kishimoto can give him more screen time helping Naruto against all these sharingan guys (Tobi,Madara,Sasuke).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

BTW i wonder if Kakashi read it and gained some knowledge about how to awaken the MS in his eye, and of course since he is a genius he succeeded doing it in an alternative way. It would make sense, because after Sasuke left the village, and Kakashi was crushed by Itachi's power, it would be logical that Kakashi begins investigating the secrets of the Uchiha. And i think that he knows other things too, and because of that Kishimoto can give him more screen time helping Naruto against all these sharingan guys (Tobi,Madara,Sasuke).

this is what I think as well. I forget if it was actually said by itachi or if I'm assuming it, but the reason he showed kakashi the MS and the tsukiomi tech was more or less to show him what the sharingan was capable of and inspire him to investigate it further. i could just be making that up but i also think it makes sense, since itachi wouldn't have wanted to just hurt kakashi like that out of pure sadism. but yea, I'm looking forward to that flashback of how kakashi did it

[HiddenMessage]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

My point was that it's not the tool but the user that really counts. You have seen Tobi, a super-strong guy do something and you automatically assume that it was because of the sharingan. He also had another sharingan in his other eye, and he made a 10 minute long Izanagi with it, by your logic that would mean anyone with a regular sharingan can get 20 minutes of godmode, or just 10 and still have one eye working. That's just nonsense.


If that were the case half of the kage subordinates who were at the kage summit would have one sharingan eye, but none of them had, only one of them had a byakugan.


You are not kidnapping them from their own village, you are killing them while they are on some mission or in a war.


There's no proof to anything of this. In fact the only one person who was ever able to control the kyuubi was Madara. He tamed it, he used it, and he lost it to Hashirama, end of story. Also we don't know how many people read the stone tablet, it was considered an important Uchiha secret, they would not just let anyone read it.

BTW i wonder if Kakashi read it and gained some knowledge about how to awaken the MS in his eye, and of course since he is a genius he succeeded doing it in an alternative way. It would make sense, because after Sasuke left the village, and Kakashi was crushed by Itachi's power, it would be logical that Kakashi begins investigating the secrets of the Uchiha. And i think that he knows other things too, and because of that Kishimoto can give him more screen time helping Naruto against all these sharingan guys (Tobi,Madara,Sasuke).

Countless people like Sasuke and Orochi have said that people with the Sharingan makes the "genius' of their day" appear average. So, Yes... having a sharingan means you are automatically better. Obito kinda of proved it with his sudden awakening.
Tobi's Izanagi is infused with the Shodai Hokage's power too. Every Sharingan is capable of using Izanagi but only those with both the Uchiha + Senju can use a Extended Izanagi.

If you had magic powers, would you share it with everybody that you know? The Sharingans were probably stockpiled in underground basements. Danzo kept it all to himself so he can replace the ones he used for Izanagi. Tobi had more Sharingans in fish tanks than a Aquarium have fishes.

If one has to die before being resurrected by Edo-Tensei then Tobi is not Madara. Therefore atleast 2 people has controlled the Kyuubi. And you yourself say the Shodai-Hokage took control of it afterwards, meaning there's atleast 3 that controlled it.

I wasn't saying someone with the Surname like Washington can walk in and read the Great Uchiha Stone Tablet. I was saying all those with Sharingans either had the birthright to read it or the people of the Uchiha clan share the same right.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

this is what I think as well. I forget if it was actually said by itachi or if I'm assuming it, but the reason he showed kakashi the MS and the tsukiomi tech was more or less to show him what the sharingan was capable of and inspire him to investigate it further. i could just be making that up but i also think it makes sense, since itachi wouldn't have wanted to just hurt kakashi like that out of pure sadism. but yea, I'm looking forward to that flashback of how kakashi did it

Knowing Itachi, he proabably did the Tsukiyomi just to demonstrate a higher level of Sharingan. IIRC, Kakashi was wondering why Itachi didn't kill him instead of mind-F***ing him too right after the split second illusion.

[james0246]

Chapter 576 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussion to the new thread.