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Old 2012-02-28, 10:15   Link #181
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
That's why I said this part was iffy, but to this part I would answer basically the same thing as Kanon did above - we know that desk shortage at start of a year is an indication that Another is around and things are about to go south, but we can't be sure whether the shortage itself is the cause or a symptom.
I don't think I made myself clear,it being the cause or symptom isn't what interests me when I bring up the desk shortage.

I just want to leave this year's situation out of it because Kouichi being a transfer student opens up a whole new can of worms (see the past few pages of this thread),I just want to say why I think all of the past Anothers were students

If you're a desk short it's either because:


A) A student that wasn't supposed to be there was added to the class,so now they're a desk short.That extra person appeared in the class , if it had appeared somewhere else,they wouldn't be a desk short since there wouldn't be an extra student.
So you can conclude that the Another is a student.

B) They're a desk short because a desk somehow vanished.But I just don't see the logic that,it works if the Another is not in the class,but if one year the Another is a student then they'd be 2 desk short (the extra student + the desk that vanished) we've never heard of that happening before.

Option A) makes a whole lot more sense to me than option B)


As for the conversation in the librarian,him making a general statement like "then at the end of the year when the deceased disapears the records revert to their original state" made think he had seen it more than once but I guess that could be him jumping to conclusions based on one case.
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Old 2012-02-28, 11:04   Link #182
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No one is responsible for the first death seen on screen. Accidents are not acceptable by Knox rules, so...
Also, please present clues that the incidents are being caused by human entities. Knox does not allow for the solving of crimes without clues being presented.

Lets first specify the term 'first death seen'.
Fujioka's death happened before the calamity has started and is thus not part of the matter at hand.
Therefore, the first death shown is Yukari's

Yukari's death has hints of foul play, namely that the umbrella was opened, and not closed. It was not hard to guess that someone wanting to go out on that day would take their umbrella with them, so the opened umbrella was placed before that.
Her slipping could have been caused by a fluid such as water.

You also say we have not seen a culprit, just the umbrella magically opening. So what?
Her death was around the corner, out of both Izumi's and Kouichi'a vision. Both character's qualified as being the detective have therefore not seen what happened around the corner.

the first death was therefore a cat box to them

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used. Have fun explaining how everyone's memories can be altered without them, while also presenting clues for their existence.
The blue truth does not require proof to be shown, It's simply a way to explain things from another angle and thus creating a new truth.
Also there is no need for an Unknown drug or hard to explain device, as you have to consider the students age. The possibility of them getting a trauma after a while is not exactly low and we were in fact given the hint that such a trauma has happened when the teacher committed suicide.
Also The Heart attack is very well explainable by applying a drug, as cyanide does no longer count as 'unknown drug'. We were also given the information that he had heart problems. Again, a detective novel does not forbid deaths other than the actual 'crime' to happen at all. The mentally stronger students could be victim to hypnosis, as some characters behavior is clearly strange.
Hypnosis, is also used in psychological science.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Umineko and Another are not similar enough for this point to be made. The possibility of a human culprit responsible for what was going on was a central point of contention in Umineko's premise, when this hasn't even been considered as a possibility in Another. Furthermore, while Umineko referenced mystery novels throughout it's text, Another has been referencing John Saul, Stephen King, HP Lovecraft, and other supernatural horror writers.
As already said, it's an analogy. Plus we did get the hint of a human culprit, namely Misaki telling Koichi that he is not the dead. This is something only the culprit could know.

There is no evidence that this is even superficially a mystery story. It is a suspenseful thriller at best, but those are an entirely different genre from what you could apply the Decalogue of Father Knox. [/QUOTE]

The mystery is there. Well hidden behind the curtains of death and blood. Also all the deaths are explainable by human means, even the latest as a possible culprit could have been the driver of the boat.




Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Another is not consciously performing any murders, since they don't even know that they themselves are the dead person. Therefore by Knox's defining of the terms, they are not the culprit. The culprit must be defined by wicked intentions and purposeful assault.

There is no proof that the dead, whether man or revived ghost, is not aware of their situation. As the one being looked for he is both allowed to lie as well as not revealing his status.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
http://www.thrillingdetective.com/trivia/triv186.html

Basically widely considered the "standards" to which a good detective/mystery story should adhere to. Note that it doesn't really apply to stories of supernatural nature though (in fact one of the "rules" is that the culprit must be human), so it's best not to get caught up in them when analyzing something like Another - they are written with a different (distinctly non-supernatural) genre in mind.

While that might be an instinctive assumption to make, there actually isn't anything that cements the necessity for Another to be someone in class 3 directly. In fact we have a clue to the opposite - the countermeasure of ignoring someone in class 3 was said to be effective 50% of the time. Which raises the question: what causes it to be ineffective during the other half of the time ?

The only likely answer is that the Another isn't necessarily someone from class 3, but someone connected to it within the same 2 degrees of separation that the phenomenon affects. In this case, pretending someone doesn't exist in class 3 likely wouldn't have the desired effect indeed, because the Another wasn't there in the first place, so it would become a situation of barking up the wrong tree.
I still have the hunch that you can point the culprit out using Knox rules. Don't know why it's probably the fact that they have yet to be truly violated. Maybe its just the fact that analogies are part of my field of study that I apply them here too...

Another thing bothering me is that if ignoring someone completely the curse is solved in 50% of the cases as well as some hints given that no phenomenon is in place anyway.
It's just small things like the photo which should have a really pale person on it while it doesn't.

You can actually make hypothetical rules out of what happened until now:

- If the right person is being ignored nothing will happen(Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't)
- The another is most likely someone who went to the beach, as the curse should not kill this far outside the town.
- If the Another is killed, the calamity ends(hint: preview)

I also think the another has to be someone within the class, otherwise people from there and their relatives dying alone would not follow the stream of logic.
If you construe it further you can even say that the calamity is happening around the another, so Kouichi is atm still a prime suspect.
I said it before and I stay with it Izumi is a very good candidate as well, because she is pretty eager to stop the calamity - be it out of guilt or to prevent further things to happen(Sosay revenge for everyone dying as a result of what happened before already)

Another problem are slight differences between manga and anime again.(Manga is behind anime atm). One of these differences is, for example, the way the students react to their teachers death as Izumi(?) for example suddenly starts barking at Misaki and Kouichi that everything is their fault a few seconds afterwards, while she is one of the firsts to talk with them after the suicide in the anime.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-02-28 at 11:20.
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Old 2012-02-28, 11:31   Link #183
Hakuromatsu
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
A) A student that wasn't supposed to be there was added to the class,so now they're a desk short.That extra person appeared in the class , if it had appeared somewhere else,they wouldn't be a desk short since there wouldn't be an extra student.
So you can conclude that the Another is a student.
This is a bit narrow-minded. You're assuming that the only way an extra student can appear in Class 3-3 is by not existing before the beginning of the year -- but why does that have to be the case?

Consider this possibility (and it is only one of many possibilities): a student is assigned to Class 3-2, but on the first day of school her older brother -- a former Class 3-3 student who was killed by the phenomenon -- reappears as the Another, altering her memory. Simultaneously, the Class 3-3 roster is altered, adding her to the group of students. When she goes to the opening ceremony that day, she'll join Class 3-3, leaving that class a desk short (and, incidentally, leaving Class 3-2 with an extra desk, but that's more likely to go unnoticed to those unfamiliar with the phenomenon).

And I know you don't want to discuss Kouichi transferring in particular, but that's just another way the phenomenon can add an extra student who isn't the Another to the class. Perhaps the March 3rd roster didn't originally include Kouichi, and was altered by the phenomenon after the fact (that sounds a bit farfetched, but it's a logical possibility).

-----

But as for Reiko's case specifically: one interesting note is that Chibiki's chart in EP6 only mentions parents, grandparents, and siblings as being within two degrees of separation. This obviously would rule out Reiko immediately. However...that chart uses some interesting logic. For starters, it doesn't include children and grandchildren -- but let's say, for argument's sake, that Chibiki was ruling those out because almost no 15-year-old students in Japan would have either of those (and hopefully none would have grandchildren ). With that in mind, the chart suggests that a "degree of separation" can only be vertical, not horizontal. That is, you can't move to one of your siblings with only one degree of separation; you have to 1) move up to your parents, and 2) move back down to your siblings.

But that makes no sense: the odds of sharing a given gene with your mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter are all equal: 50%. And the odds of sharing a given gene with your grandmother, grandfather, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, grandson, or granddaughter are also all equal: 25%. If a relative is X degrees separated from you, there's a 2^(-X) chance that you share a given gene with that relative. So, using, a logical definition of "degree of separation," Reiko is still fair game.

However...first cousins are three degrees of separation apart (12.5% chance of sharing a given gene), so I don't know what this means for Misaki Fujioka...could she actually be Mei's dead sister?

Last edited by Hakuromatsu; 2012-02-28 at 11:42.
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Old 2012-02-28, 12:14   Link #184
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Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu View Post
This is a bit narrow-minded. You're assuming that the only way an extra student can appear in Class 3-3 is by not existing before the beginning of the year -- but why does that have to be the case?

Consider this possibility (and it is only one of many possibilities): a student is assigned to Class 3-2, but on the first day of school her older brother -- a former Class 3-3 student who was killed by the phenomenon -- reappears as the Another, altering her memory. Simultaneously, the Class 3-3 roster is altered, adding her to the group of students. When she goes to the opening ceremony that day, she'll join Class 3-3, leaving that class a desk short (and, incidentally, leaving Class 3-2 with an extra desk, but that's more likely to go unnoticed to those unfamiliar with the phenomenon).

And I know you don't want to discuss Kouichi transferring in particular, but that's just another way the phenomenon can add an extra student who isn't the Another to the class. Perhaps the March 3rd roster didn't originally include Kouichi, and was altered by the phenomenon after the fact (that sounds a bit farfetched, but it's a logical possibility).

-----

But as for Reiko's case specifically: one interesting note is that Chibiki's chart in EP6 only mentions parents, grandparents, and siblings as being within two degrees of separation. This obviously would rule out Reiko immediately. However...that chart uses some interesting logic. For starters, it doesn't include children and grandchildren -- but let's say, for argument's sake, that Chibiki was ruling those out because almost no 15-year-old students in Japan would have either of those (and hopefully none would have grandchildren ). With that in mind, the chart suggests that a "degree of separation" can only be vertical, not horizontal. That is, you can't move to one of your siblings with only one degree of separation; you have to 1) move up to your parents, and 2) move back down to your siblings.

But that makes no sense: the odds of sharing a given gene with your mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter are all equal: 50%. And the odds of sharing a given gene with your grandmother, grandfather, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, grandson, or granddaughter are also all equal: 25%. If a relative is X degrees separated from you, there's a 2^(-X) chance that you share a given gene with that relative. So, using, a logical definition of "degree of separation," Reiko is still fair game.

However...first cousins are three degrees of separation apart (12.5% chance of sharing a given gene), so I don't know what this means for Misaki Fujioka...could she actually be Mei's dead sister?
Reiko is imho far out of the range as nothing has happened to her or Kouichi (yet). I also doubt that the phenomenon is about genes. Your explaination would qualify her to be a victim to the calamity but not its cause.
If my memory serves me right he was already in the city beefore the term started, and the phenomenon would have any effect so the school had enough time to place a desk for him.
Another thing not making sense, espeically when it comes to Reiko is that every single death happened around a student from that class.
I is also notable that Kouichi was at least close every time something happened, even the one time it got prevented.
The only incident where no one was close was when the nurse died, she however was connected to him through a phone.
People also usually die once someone is about to find out something significant which is certainly not a coincidence.

The only death which has happened close to Reiko was the last one, all the others were, as far as we know, out of her sphere.
And again someone was about to tell/remember something when it happened - Definitely not a coincidence.
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Old 2012-02-28, 12:18   Link #185
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You're... Making up all this extra circumstantial info just to justify "Reiko is the Another". Is there a particular reason why you want to be true so badly?

As has been mentioned, after the graduation ceremony, the extra disappears from the roster, and reappears where they originally were on the roster accompanied by a red X (meaning they are dead). Why would this year be so different from the norm?
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Old 2012-02-28, 12:28   Link #186
Hakuromatsu
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You're... Making up all this extra circumstantial info just to justify "Reiko is the Another". Is there a particular reason why you want to be true so badly?
I'm actually just playing devil's advocate. I don't necessarily think Reiko is the Another; I'm just entertaining the possibility that she's not ruled out altogether.
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Old 2012-02-28, 13:07   Link #187
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Just asking something: If teachers can die because of the phenomenon too, they can be the Another? If yes, why would be a missing desk

It was in my mind since I saw that Mikami sensei was the teacher from a former 3-3 class, maybe she died...but I don't know if she can be the another
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Old 2012-02-28, 13:13   Link #188
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The problem with that is people remember her being in class 3 2 years ago.
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Old 2012-02-28, 13:38   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The problem with that is people remember her being in class 3 2 years ago.
I'm snatching the role of devils advocate from Hakuromatsu for that one just to keep the discussion roling:
It'd be natural for a teacher to remain at a school while repeating a class is fairly unorthodox in Japan (you have to be REALLY bad and REALLY have missed something...I just heard from a friend that his school didn't even allow that) so remembering that a teacher was at the school before is natural, while remembering a student being there even 1 or 2 years ago is strange and you would at least question it.
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Old 2012-02-28, 13:46   Link #190
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Originally Posted by Taynis View Post
Just asking something: If teachers can die because of the phenomenon too, they can be the Another? If yes, why would be a missing desk
This is where it gets tricky. It's unclear whether the rules for who the phenomenon can kill are the same as the rules for who the Another can be, and this is where the argument over the last two pages is coming from. I will agree with Dengar et al. that it makes the most sense for only students in Class 3-3 to be the Another, but as of EP8 I'm not convinced that this is the case by necessity. Misaki said in EP5 that "that extra student is someone dead," but she also said "this is how I see it" -- and characters have already made wrong assumptions over the course of the show (remember how sure everyone was that the phenomenon couldn't kill outside of Yomiyama?)

I'll also say that the other reason why Reiko is an easy target for discussion is because there's no easy target in Class 3-3 itself. That may mean she's a red herring, it may mean she's actually the Another, or it may not mean anything at all. Who knows (except for those who have read the novel).

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'm snatching the role of devils advocate from Hakuromatsu for that one just to keep the discussion roling:
It'd be natural for a teacher to remain at a school while repeating a class is fairly unorthodox in Japan (you have to be REALLY bad and REALLY have missed something...I just heard from a friend that his school didn't even allow that) so remembering that a teacher was at the school before is natural, while remembering a student being there even 1 or 2 years ago is strange and you would at least question it.
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that (hypothetically) the phenomenon altered everyone's memories of Mikami-sensei dying in 1996 but not everyone's memories of her being a teacher in 1996? That's an interesting take. I don't think Mikami is the Another, but I suppose it wouldn't be impossible (even if it's improbable).
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Old 2012-02-28, 14:04   Link #191
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Quote:
Hypnosis, is also used in psychological science.
Hypnosis does not work this way. You are proposing science fiction.

Quote:
The mystery is there. Well hidden behind the curtains of death and blood. Also all the deaths are explainable by human means, even the latest as a possible culprit could have been the driver of the boat.
The presence of mystery elements is not sufficient to call it a mystery story. You're embarrassing yourself.

Quote:
There is no proof that the dead, whether man or revived ghost, is not aware of their situation. As the one being looked for he is both allowed to lie as well as not revealing his status.
It has been heavily insinuated with no clues to the contrary. Present clues that the Another is aware of their status. You're not even following Knox rules at this point.
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Old 2012-02-28, 15:06   Link #192
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The only death which has happened close to Reiko was the last one, all the others were, as far as we know, out of her sphere.
As far as we know, immediately close physical proximity to the Another isn't a requirement. We know the phenomenon has limited range (Roughly the size of Yomiyama city), though we are unsure about the exact specifications, or the actual origin of said sphere of influence - is it the Yomiyama city, or is it the another him/herself?

Death in episode 8 happened outside of Yomiyama city, which basically presents us with these 3 options:
1) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is Yomiyama city, and they simply weren't far enough away from it.
2) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is the another itself, and said sphere's size is roughly that of Yomiyama city (assuming the another never left the city previously, this would have led the librarian to believe that simply moving away from the city is enough to be safe -- and it is, so long as the another stays there). The group didn't move outside of said zone of influence because the another was actually with them, thus bringing the "sphere of influence" along.
3) The death is unrelated to the phenomenon and is a true accident, meant to throw us off track.

With 4 episodes left to the end, I think option 3 would be a little too unproductive at this point, which leaves us with either 1) or 2). Either the librarian had underestimated the phenomenon's range, or he hadn't considered the possibility that the point of origin might follow Another wherever it goes.

Considering I'm leaning pretty strongly towards Reiko being Another, I'll go with option 2), and consider it another clue on top of the slowly building pile hinting towards her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar
You're... Making up all this extra circumstantial info just to justify "Reiko is the Another". Is there a particular reason why you want to be true so badly?
I'd be willing to say that outright dismissing the possibility of Another being someone outside of class 3-3 as potentially dismissing a set of clues the show has been presenting, unless they are deliberately building a massive red herring with Reiko, in which case they have me fallen for it. Let's leave class 3 for a bit and return to Koichi's home.

We have established that the phenomenon's range is either that of Yomiyama city centered around the Another, or slightly larger than that and centered around Another itself. In either case, Koichi's father is well beyond the range and outside his influence. Thus he has the unique position among the whole cast of being the sole source of information not susceptible to manipulation.

Considering he calls Koichi, we can rule out Koichi as Another - he wouldn't suddenly develop the urge to call his dead son, unless he has gone nuts

With this in mind, it has been roughly ~1.5 years since Koichi last visited Yomiyama. But Koichi doesn't remember this. Koichi normally lives in Tokyo, yet had a reason to visit Yomiyama 1.5 years ago. This memory got erased altogether. The phenomenon alters people's memories in a way to make sure no one can recognize the Another for the corpse that it actually is. So the question is: why is the deletion of Koichi's memory of him visiting Yomiyama 1.5 years ago necessary for the preservation of Another's identity ? What about said visit puts the identity of Another in danger ? Not just bits or pieces of it, but the whole fact he visited the city altogether?

Second bit - a couple of times his father has told Koichi to say hi to grandpa and grandma from him, but he has never mentioned Reiko, who should be living in the same house. Why? Is this a hint, or a harmless oversight ?

Why did the grandpa mutter "Poor Ritsuko ... poor Reiko as well..." ? A hint, or him simply going senile ? (Remember that people apparently can preserve a sense of deja-vu despite their memory alteration ... like Akazawa feeling she has shaken Koichi's hand before, and Reiko's classmate feeling he has seen her recently, while she insists they haven't met for years).

For that matter, why is removing the memory of Reiko's classmate of him having seen her more recently important for preservation of Another's identity?

Why is the bird constantly going "Why, Rei-chan, why?"

Think what you will of Reiko being shown through a distorted glass in episode 8 while talking to Koichi. A harmless, if weird, choice of camera perspective, or alluding to something?

So ... why all of the above ? A big coincidence, a red herring, or a trail of hints left behind as the story moves on?

Assuming the show is being deliberately being misleading here and I have taken the bait like a sucker (which might be the case at the end of it ), and the Another is indeed someone in class 3 ... who do you think it might be ? And why ?

And why is the countermeasure of ignoring someone in class effective only half the time ? I don't think this part can be merely waved away because it's inconvenient. Rather, it's one of the few pieces of information that we can be certain about, as it isn't based on assumptions.

All of the above might be an elaborate troll indeed, but until that gets proven to be the case, I'm going to consider Reiko the most likely suspect, and I don't really see anyone else being hinted towards. For now, I'd rather believe the show has been slowly feeding us hints (some more obscure than others) all along, rather than Reiko being a massive bait.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:10   Link #193
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Thoughts For The Thread

One thing I'm laughing at is, Knox and soo many other writers have broke these same "10 Commanding Rules" or "Golden Rules" so putting much bases on Knox's law is not really the greatest idea.

Unless the writer comes out claiming to base their mystery off Knox's writing style I just cant support his way of writing in this mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Yukari's death has hints of foul play, namely that the umbrella was opened, and not closed. It was not hard to guess that someone wanting to go out on that day would take their umbrella with them, so the opened umbrella was placed before that.
Her slipping could have been caused by a fluid such as water.
I just re-watched the footage from her death and I must say the umbrella is most defiantly locked in place. (If the animators know how it will end, you would think they would leave a clue in there)

It also shows her slipping on the edge of the stairs, not any puddle. (>.> her glasses broke, i have glasses myself and idk about your's, but myn would have never broke from that hight)

Seems purely accidental, the umbrella is latched in place till it some how opens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
The blue truth does not require proof to be shown, It's simply a way to explain things from another angle and thus creating a new truth.
Also there is no need for an Unknown drug or hard to explain device, as you have to consider the students age. The possibility of them getting a trauma after a while is not exactly low and we were in fact given the hint that such a trauma has happened when the teacher committed suicide.
That is a lot of if in your statement and trauma in every student for the last twenty six years? Highly unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Also The Heart attack is very well explainable by applying a drug, as cyanide does no longer count as 'unknown drug'. We were also given the information that he had heart problems. Again, a detective novel does not forbid deaths other than the actual 'crime' to happen at all. The mentally stronger students could be victim to hypnosis, as some characters behavior is clearly strange.
Hypnosis, is also used in psychological science.
You honestly believe that at the exact moment he was about to give information about the incidents, there was a heart attack? That the pure moment of its effect coincidentally occurs during his confession? I highly doubt this as well.

Although, I have mentioned hypnosis in the past and it is quite a dangerous technique that could be implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
As already said, it's an analogy. Plus we did get the hint of a human culprit, namely Misaki telling Koichi that he is not the dead. This is something only the culprit could know.
Unless Mei is a "Witness", "Accomplice" or "She really does have some kind of (Inner Eye)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
There is no evidence that this is even superficially a mystery story.

The mystery is there. Well hidden behind the curtains of death and blood.
What??? You say There is no evidence that this is a mystery, but then you turn around and say the mystery is there and well hidden? Is this not how most mystery's are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
Reiko is imho far out of the range as nothing has happened to her or Kouichi (yet).
I wouldn't call that glass incident "nothing", he did "almost" get smashed by the glass. He did somehow escape it, which either means:

1: It had nothing to do with the curse.

2: He can somehow escape this curse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
I also doubt that the phenomenon is about genes. Your explaination would qualify her to be a victim to the calamity but not its cause.
I agree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
I is also notable that Kouichi was at least close every time something happened, even the one time it got prevented.

The only incident where no one was close was when the nurse died, she however was connected to him through a phone.
I agree it is notable and i also am a little suspicious of the static on the phones. (Call me paranoid from too many horrors >.>)

I know this is a far stretch, but I just thought about his lung? He had a lung transplant correct? Who was it from? (Idk if it would make much difference, just a thought)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix
The only death which has happened close to Reiko was the last one, all the others were, as far as we know, out of her sphere.
And again someone was about to tell/remember something when it happened - Definitely not a coincidence.
True... But, we also have to go by the limit range we have been given. Which is a city wide diameter, so it would be possible for the "Force" or "If" Reiko is responsible to effect these outcomes. She has enough face time and theories to be considered the "Another", but only slightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar
As has been mentioned, after the graduation ceremony, the extra disappears from the roster, and reappears where they originally were on the roster accompanied by a red X (meaning they are dead). Why would this year be so different from the norm?
It is peculiar why it has not changed, not to mention there being no X. So does that mean last years "Another" was never found out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu
(remember how sure everyone was that the phenomenon couldn't kill outside of Yomiyama?)
Quite true, so what do we have to base our assumptions on? Twenty-six years of information that could have been altered down to the very core... Myth's... Legends...

I mean take Vampires for instance, legend has it they turn to dust in sunlight, but look at Twilight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
Hypnosis does not work this way. You are proposing science fiction.
There are plenty of science fiction mystery novels. (O.o)

To name some of the top how about:

A Philosophical Investigation by Philip Kerr

The Retrieval Artist novels by Kristine Kathryn Rusch

or

When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
The presence of mystery elements is not sufficient to call it a mystery story. You're embarrassing yourself.
The definition of a mystery novel:

Mystery is a genre of fiction in which a detective, either an amateur or a professional, solves a crime or a series of crimes. Because detective stories rely on logic, supernatural elements rarely come into play. The detective may be a private investigator, a policeman, an elderly widow, or a young girl, but he or she generally has nothing material to gain from solving the crime. Subgenres include the cozy and the hard-boiled detective story.

So tell me, who is the detective and who is the criminal?

The detective could be Reiko or it could be Koichi, you decide on that.

The criminal could be this "Another", "Normal Human (Foul Play)" or (This force)

Just cause we do not have all the elements does not mean we can rule it out as a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
As far as we know, immediately close physical proximity to the Another isn't a requirement. We know the phenomenon has limited range (Roughly the size of Yomiyama city), though we are unsure about the exact specifications, or the actual origin of said sphere of influence - is it the Yomiyama city, or is it the another him/herself?

Death in episode 8 happened outside of Yomiyama city, which basically presents us with these 3 options:
1) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is Yomiyama city, and they simply weren't far enough away from it.
2) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is the another itself, and said sphere's size is roughly that of Yomiyama city (assuming the another never left the city previously, this would have led the librarian to believe that simply moving away from the city is enough to be safe -- and it is, so long as the another stays there). The group didn't move outside of said zone of influence because the another was actually with them, thus bringing the "sphere of influence" along.
3) The death is unrelated to the phenomenon and is a true accident, meant to throw us off track.

With 4 episodes left to the end, I think option 3 would be a little too unproductive at this point, which leaves us with either 1) or 2). Either the librarian had underestimated the phenomenon's range, or he hadn't considered the possibility that the point of origin might follow Another wherever it goes.

Considering I'm leaning pretty strongly towards Reiko being Another, I'll go with option 2), and consider it another clue on top of the slowly building pile hinting towards her.
This goes to further explain what happened during the last classes trip, on their trip someone died in the mountains, but it was also stated there were two deaths. So we still don't know where the second one died, does that mean before this trip is over there will be another death?

Does this exclude the librarian now? Since they are away from the city, or could the man in the boat be the librarian or be an accomplice? We shall see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
I'd be willing to say that outright dismissing the possibility of Another being someone outside of class 3-3 as potentially dismissing a set of clues the show has been presenting, unless they are deliberately building a massive red herring with Reiko, in which case they have me fallen for it. Let's leave class 3 for a bit and return to Koichi's home.

We have established that the phenomenon's range is either that of Yomiyama city centered around the Another, or slightly larger than that and centered around Another itself. In either case, Koichi's father is well beyond the range and outside his influence. Thus he has the unique position among the whole cast of being the sole source of information not susceptible to manipulation.

Considering he calls Koichi, we can rule out Koichi as Another - he wouldn't suddenly develop the urge to call his dead son, unless he has gone nuts

With this in mind, it has been roughly ~1.5 years since Koichi last visited Yomiyama. But Koichi doesn't remember this. Koichi normally lives in Tokyo, yet had a reason to visit Yomiyama 1.5 years ago. This memory got erased altogether. The phenomenon alters people's memories in a way to make sure no one can recognize the Another for the corpse that it actually is. So the question is: why is the deletion of Koichi's memory of him visiting Yomiyama 1.5 years ago necessary for the preservation of Another's identity ? What about said visit puts the identity of Another in danger ? Not just bits or pieces of it, but the whole fact he visited the city altogether?
Izumi does shed some interesting information, if that is true then she knew Koichi before this. Does that mean something happened a year and a half ago that was so important to erase everyone's memory of it? He doesn't remember it, but she does? (A feeling anyways)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Second bit - a couple of times his father has told Koichi to say hi to grandpa and grandma from him, but he has never mentioned Reiko, who should be living in the same house. Why? Is this a hint, or a harmless oversight ?

Why did the grandpa mutter "Poor Ritsuko ... poor Reiko as well..." ? A hint, or him simply going senile ? (Remember that people apparently can preserve a sense of deja-vu despite their memory alteration ... like Akazawa feeling she has shaken Koichi's hand before, and Reiko's classmate feeling he has seen her recently, while she insists they haven't met for years).

For that matter, why is removing the memory of Reiko's classmate of him having seen her more recently important for preservation of Another's identity?

Why is the bird constantly going "Why, Rei-chan, why?"

Think what you will of Reiko being shown through a distorted glass in episode 8 while talking to Koichi. A harmless, if weird, choice of camera perspective, or alluding to something?

So ... why all of the above ? A big coincidence, a red herring, or a trail of hints left behind as the story moves on?

Assuming the show is being deliberately being misleading here and I have taken the bait like a sucker (which might be the case at the end of it ), and the Another is indeed someone in class 3 ... who do you think it might be ? And why ?
HOLY-BLOND-CHEERLEADER-BATMAN!! I cant believe I've missed some of that in the anime! Thanks for pointing that out Skyfall!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
And why is the countermeasure of ignoring someone in class effective only half the time ? I don't think this part can be merely waved away because it's inconvenient. Rather, it's one of the few pieces of information that we can be certain about, as it isn't based on assumptions.

All of the above might be an elaborate troll indeed, but until that gets proven to be the case, I'm going to consider Reiko the most likely suspect, and I don't really see anyone else being hinted towards. For now, I'd rather believe the show has been slowly feeding us hints (some more obscure than others) all along, rather than Reiko being a massive bait.
Quite the interesting deduction, it is true that Reiko has been having migraines. Maybe it is a sign of something to come? Could there be a connection between them? Also, why do the grandparents never acknowledge Reiko?

As of looking over the beginning episode with the static... I think it has nothing to do with the killings now T_T there goes my ghost theory. The incidents just don't add up...

Last edited by Voxxen; 2012-02-28 at 16:32.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:12   Link #194
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
One thing I'm laughing at is, Knox and soo many other writers have broke these same "10 Commanding Rules" or "Golden Rules" so putting much bases on Knox's law is not really the greatest idea.
That's pretty much my point, here.

Quote:
There are plenty of science fiction mystery novels. (O.o)

To name some of the top how about:

A Philosophical Investigation by Philip Kerr

The Retrieval Artist novels by Kristine Kathryn Rusch

or

When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger
And none of them are Knox compliant.

Quote:
The criminal could be this "Another", "Normal Human (Foul Play)" or (This force)

Just cause we do not have all the elements does not mean we can rule it out as a mystery.
If the criminal is not a normal human, we do not have a Knox-compliant mystery story. I was specifically referencing the definition Knox himself uses in his essays, please try and keep up.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:25   Link #195
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Hypnosis does not work this way. You are proposing science fiction.
Hypnosis does not let you forget things, it makes things temporary unavailable to the brain. People are regaining parts of their memories if they try hard enough, as seen in the latest episode.
Using it to 'forget' was definitely the wrong term, but the argument is still valid for said reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The presence of mystery elements is not sufficient to call it a mystery story. You're embarrassing yourself.

My point is about how the mystery parts can be solved applying Knox rules. Solving its mystery elements through their application is therefore sufficient. You can draw an analogy to almost everything after all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
[
It has been heavily insinuated with no clues to the contrary. Present clues that the Another is aware of their status. You're not even following Knox rules at this point.


Objection, your statement clearly contradics the facts.


Knox 8. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.


Misaki is still a suspect, right?
This possibility alone is enough clue necessary:
"Misaki:'Don't worry you are not the dead.'"

You see, the rule has not been violated, as long as you can't rule her out for sure.
And we do in fact have mor hints of her being dead than we got hints of her not being dead.

True, Knox 2 has been stretched, but still it was written a long time ago - stretching them to incoorparate them in another hull is not impossible, in fact otherwise no modern author, would be able to write a novel using knox rules, as simple forensic techniques like Luminol would already violate them otherwise.

Clues presented.
The prosecution rests.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
As far as we know, immediately close physical proximity to the Another isn't a requirement. We know the phenomenon has limited range (Roughly the size of Yomiyama city), though we are unsure about the exact specifications, or the actual origin of said sphere of influence - is it the Yomiyama city, or is it the another him/herself?

Death in episode 8 happened outside of Yomiyama city, which basically presents us with these 3 options:
1) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is Yomiyama city, and they simply weren't far enough away from it.
2) The origin of the "phenomenon's sphere of influence" is the another itself, and said sphere's size is roughly that of Yomiyama city (assuming the another never left the city previously, this would have led the librarian to believe that simply moving away from the city is enough to be safe -- and it is, so long as the another stays there). The group didn't move outside of said zone of influence because the another was actually with them, thus bringing the "sphere of influence" along.
3) The death is unrelated to the phenomenon and is a true accident, meant to throw us off track.

With 4 episodes left to the end, I think option 3 would be a little too unproductive at this point, which leaves us with either 1) or 2). Either the librarian had underestimated the phenomenon's range, or he hadn't considered the possibility that the point of origin might follow Another wherever it goes.

Considering I'm leaning pretty strongly towards Reiko being Another, I'll go with option 2), and consider it another clue on top of the slowly building pile hinting towards her.
You are still ignoring the fact that one person always had at least an expanded sphere while something happend.
So the last time hee and Izumi could have held hands is when either he or she died.
We can also assume that last years dead one is also this years dead, as the record would otherwise still change after the ceremony and reveal the dead.
This is at least a feasible explaination for the missing name on the record.


Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's pretty much my point, here.
If the criminal is not a normal human, we do not have a Knox-compliant mystery story. I was specifically referencing the definition Knox himself uses in his essays, please try and keep up.
Again, in case of 'Another' you have to specify the term 'Human' as the dead one is alive during the event.
I also dobt that Knox would have thougth of someone comming up with an idea like that and thus ruling it out.
The point i'm getting to the whole time is that they are very usuable for finding out who the Another is.

The possibility of foul play is also still given, and would work for several characters like the librarian or Misaki (We have been given hints that there might be 'a twin').
Again, her stating something else does not necessarily mean its true. The culprit in sleeping murder lied the whole time about certain facts.
the only squishy thing is atm how or why they forgot things. its easy for the students(trauma as nearly everyone has seen at least one death) harder for the teachers.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:33   Link #196
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Lots and lots of arguments.
To be fair, those are hints at something, not at the fact that she is the extra. The hints could literally mean anything. From Reiko being Ritsuko's murderer to... well, anything really.

Besides, if Reiko is the extra, that leaves the glaring contradiction of the fact that the amount of seats in the classroom didn't add up, and the fact that all of the other known extras were students from class 3 who had died. I still don't see why this year would be any different.

That, is, unless none of Librarian Guy's theories are right and the calamity is actually totally random... But if it IS totally random, then we get back to the original problem of the known presence of one student too many.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:36   Link #197
AuraTwilight
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Hypnosis does not let you forget things, it makes things temporary unavailable to the brain. People are regaining parts of their memories if they try hard enough, as seen in the latest episode.
Using it to 'forget' was definitely the wrong term, but the argument is still valid for said reasons.
Hypnosis does not allow for the rewriting of memories via telephone on people who are several countries away.

Quote:
Misaki is still a suspect, right?
This possibility alone is enough clue necessary:
"Misaki:'Don't worry you are not the dead.'"

You see, the rule has not been violated, as long as you can't rule her out for sure.
And we do in fact have mor hints of her being dead than we got hints of her not being dead.

True, Knox 2 has been stretched, but still it was written a long time ago - stretching them to incoorparate them in another hull is not impossible, in fact otherwise no modern author, would be able to write a novel using knox rules, as simple forensic techniques like Luminol would already violate them otherwise.

Clues presented.
The prosecution rests.
Misaki claims that her doll eye lets her see things others can't. She might be able to see who the Another is through a clairvoyant sight, or has some completely mundane information that discredits Kouichi being the Another. Maybe for the same reason people seem to find him familiar.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:37   Link #198
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
You are still ignoring the fact that one person always had at least an expanded sphere while something happend.
Could you elaborate on this ? I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you are referring to here.

Quote:
So the last time hee and Izumi could have held hands is when either he or she died.
Why would either of them dying be a perquisite to them shaking hands O_o

The most obvious time when this could have happened would be 1.5 years ago, during Koichi's visit to Yomiyama that has been erased from everyone's memory.

Quote:
We can also assume that last years dead one is also this years dead, as the record would otherwise still change after the ceremony and reveal the dead.
This is at least a feasible explaination for the missing name on the record.
I'll have to ask you to elaborate on this one as well. What missing name and what record are we talking about? While calamity is in effects records get altered, so current-year records become useless for determining the Another while the phenomenon is in effect, as is the case at the moment.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:41   Link #199
Dengar
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Judging from the facts, the extra is someone different each year, and it can be somebody who died several years ago.
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Old 2012-02-28, 16:44   Link #200
Oyashiro
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So if heart attack boy died when he tried to acknowledge Mei, why hasn't anyone else dropped dead while talking to her? If ignoring a classmate is as important as everyone claims and the Another is (as stated in theories above) Reiko, who is not in the class, then why should mentioning Mei at that moment be such a crucial point to the mystery that the curse had to kill him right then and there?

So, what exactly was heart attack boy going to say before he died? :P Is there some other class rule or theory about the curse that we haven't been told of yet? Deaths had already occurred at that point, so he couldn't have triggered the Calamity...
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