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Old 2012-02-29, 13:01   Link #981
ttdestroy
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
it's likely just a simulation battle. Not one using the actual mobile suits. Flit's likely training him to fight X-rounders or hoping to awaken Asemu as one.
Yeah, I hope Flit tears Asemu a new a#%hole, and tells him to stop fighting like a little girl, seems he's making the "hhhnnnnggg!" face quite often in battle.
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Old 2012-02-29, 20:25   Link #982
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If everything shown so far is Asem "fighting like a girl", I can't wait when he gets X-rounder powers and overmatches Zeheart.
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Old 2012-02-29, 20:31   Link #983
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I don't know, he's been a bit weak only in his space battles in the AGE-2 but I thought his ground battles with the AGE-1 were pretty good for a pilot his experience level so far all things considered. He clearly didn't fight like a girl in his first fight in Episode 16.

That being said, he probably can't match Zehart at this point, who is likely far more experienced as a pilot and as a soldier.
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Old 2012-03-01, 00:54   Link #984
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Anyone else think Flit is going to be Patrick Zala 2.0? I was rewatching episode 16 and some of the stuff he said was pretty out there. For a 40 year old he's still pretty damn bitter over what happened to his family and Yurin.

He says he's going to hunt them down and kill them all, and then proceeds to snap at his subordinate for even suggesting that he might be a bit too harsh on their enemy.

I've been very critical of the Veigans, but I think Flit is being irrational and immature. You would expect his opinion to change as he grew up.

Granted that his experience with Veigans weren't exactly positive, after all, Desil is a psychopath, but Gera Zoi wasn't that bad (tbh his death was kinda touching). For someone with a genius-level intellect Flit seems very narrow minded, he hasn't even stopped to think why perhaps the Veigans have turned down the peace offers. He just chalks it up them being inhuman, but perhaps the terms were ridiculous or unfair to the Veigans?The Federation abandoned them in Mars, and covered it up, they also took a hero like Grodek and sent him to rot in prison. They don't exactly have the moral high ground....


Will there be a conflict between Flit and Asem, or will getting his ass handed to him by Zeheart make Asem see things Flit's way?
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Old 2012-03-01, 06:18   Link #985
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Possibly on that path, but I won't consider him irrational or even immature. Flit and the EFF were probably fighting a defensive war for the past 25 years. The operation he's planning is probably the last option after exhausting all other ones, atleast in the EFF's opinion.

Plus Geera Zoi's death wasn't touching; its justice for Yurin.
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Old 2012-03-01, 18:29   Link #986
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Anyone else think Flit is going to be Patrick Zala 2.0? I was rewatching episode 16 and some of the stuff he said was pretty out there. For a 40 year old he's still pretty damn bitter over what happened to his family and Yurin.

He says he's going to hunt them down and kill them all, and then proceeds to snap at his subordinate for even suggesting that he might be a bit too harsh on their enemy.

I've been very critical of the Veigans, but I think Flit is being irrational and immature. You would expect his opinion to change as he grew up.

Granted that his experience with Veigans weren't exactly positive, after all, Desil is a psychopath, but Gera Zoi wasn't that bad (tbh his death was kinda touching). For someone with a genius-level intellect Flit seems very narrow minded, he hasn't even stopped to think why perhaps the Veigans have turned down the peace offers. He just chalks it up them being inhuman, but perhaps the terms were ridiculous or unfair to the Veigans?The Federation abandoned them in Mars, and covered it up, they also took a hero like Grodek and sent him to rot in prison. They don't exactly have the moral high ground....


Will there be a conflict between Flit and Asem, or will getting his ass handed to him by Zeheart make Asem see things Flit's way?
Well you have to take into account the fact that Flit lost his parents, Bruzar, Yurin and two home colonies to the Veigans all those years. Those aren't things you can easily sweep under the rug and forget, its easy to say or tell someone to forget something but its another thing entirely to do it. The Veigans certainly don't forget the cirsumstances they live in and what the EF did to them and it drives their cause still. Not to mention that there has been at least one attempt by the Veigans to seed infighting within the EF space and that the Veigans themselves interrupted a society without wars prior to their invasion. Its just a simplified rationalization you do when you see the enemy do the things you despise to you personally, the emotions are hard to forget especially if the conflict is still going on. The same thing goes for the Veigan side, the likely remember the suffering they go through (even Zehart remembers it) due to the EF's actions and it drives them to their ultimate goal and maybe even lack of empathy for the EF civilians; at least for the army in general.

Also note that while we don't know the terms offered to the Veigans but if they are driven by an insane culture of revenge that has cultivated their society for generations (by a charismatic leader very likely, given how they keep using his name out loud and praise how awesome of a plan that is). Not that I'm confident that the EF aren't going to be offering the best of deals (because they're hardly paragons of Best Government Ever), but I suspect the Veigans are going to accept nothing less than them being made supreme rulers of Earth because that's what the ultimate goal their Plan calls for.

Also, its important to note that the series hasn't really showcased much of the Veigan's worst acts in the war so far since it mainly focuses on the heroes's attempts to fight them. They've destroyed a fair number of colonies up to this point and there was little the EF could do to fight them until DODS mass production. Geera Zoi was in a very high (if not the highest) leadership position within the Veigan's campaign inside EF space, he is certainly involved in the planning and execution of some of the colony attacks at least, so its not like he's an innocent guy.

I think what we have in AGE so far is an interesting example of two sides in a war that has committed misjustices. The EF started it by abandoning the Veigans, which kinda had to go colonize because of the overpopulation problems back at Earth. And now they've created monsters who are back for revenge. Its the EF fault this started in the first place but even if they did wrong things, there's only a certain amount of concessions a government is going to make especially if the administration who made the decision is long gone. The public isn't going to be happy with concessions either because that means they will get mistreated by the Veigans and recent memories of loss by them isn't going to help so they will likely prefer war and war happens to sort out the winners and losers until one side wins or both tire of it.

I also have to disagree to some level about Grodek, he is a hero of some sort but he still broke laws to do it. If you steal government military hardware under false circumstances, under a false promotion and disobeyed orders, you're going to get it period. Grodek also has no qualms about manipulating the crew and letting a minor pilot his most prized MS in the arsenal just so Flit can help him out in the war effort. He was just as revenge driven as Flit is now. He did it initially to save lives and he has both initially and as a result of his victory on Ambat but he broke laws and chain of command to do it and he has to pay the price of his actions. Of they don't then every commander is going to start acting like that thinking it's okay.
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Old 2012-03-01, 19:42   Link #987
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Well you have to take into account the fact that Flit lost his parents, Bruzar, Yurin and two home colonies to the Veigans all those years. Those aren't things you can easily sweep under the rug and forget, its easy to say or tell someone to forget something but its another thing entirely to do it. The Veigans certainly don't forget the cirsumstances they live in and what the EF did to them and it drives their cause still. Not to mention that there has been at least one attempt by the Veigans to seed infighting within the EF space and that the Veigans themselves interrupted a society without wars prior to their invasion. Its just a simplified rationalization you do when you see the enemy do the things you despise to you personally, the emotions are hard to forget especially if the conflict is still going on. The same thing goes for the Veigan side, the likely remember the suffering they go through (even Zehart remembers it) due to the EF's actions and it drives them to their ultimate goal and maybe even lack of empathy for the EF civilians; at least for the army in general.

Also note that while we don't know the terms offered to the Veigans but if they are driven by an insane culture of revenge that has cultivated their society for generations (by a charismatic leader very likely, given how they keep using his name out loud and praise how awesome of a plan that is). Not that I'm confident that the EF aren't going to be offering the best of deals (because they're hardly paragons of Best Government Ever), but I suspect the Veigans are going to accept nothing less than them being made supreme rulers of Earth because that's what the ultimate goal their Plan calls for.

Also, its important to note that the series hasn't really showcased much of the Veigan's worst acts in the war so far since it mainly focuses on the heroes's attempts to fight them. They've destroyed a fair number of colonies up to this point and there was little the EF could do to fight them until DODS mass production. Geera Zoi was in a very high (if not the highest) leadership position within the Veigan's campaign inside EF space, he is certainly involved in the planning and execution of some of the colony attacks at least, so its not like he's an innocent guy.

I think what we have in AGE so far is an interesting example of two sides in a war that has committed misjustices. The EF started it by abandoning the Veigans, which kinda had to go colonize because of the overpopulation problems back at Earth. And now they've created monsters who are back for revenge. Its the EF fault this started in the first place but even if they did wrong things, there's only a certain amount of concessions a government is going to make especially if the administration who made the decision is long gone. The public isn't going to be happy with concessions either because that means they will get mistreated by the Veigans and recent memories of loss by them isn't going to help so they will likely prefer war and war happens to sort out the winners and losers until one side wins or both tire of it.

I also have to disagree to some level about Grodek, he is a hero of some sort but he still broke laws to do it. If you steal government military hardware under false circumstances, under a false promotion and disobeyed orders, you're going to get it period. Grodek also has no qualms about manipulating the crew and letting a minor pilot his most prized MS in the arsenal just so Flit can help him out in the war effort. He was just as revenge driven as Flit is now.
I was fine with 15 year old Flit saying he'd never forgive the Veigans and that he'd wipe them all out. That's a realistic point of view for a teenager as they act and behave based on emotions, not reason. Flit was clearly hurt by the loss of his mother, Yurin and others close to him. It's OK for him to turn that sense of loss into anger, and for him to direct it at the Veigans. It was even ok for him to say they are inhuman. After all, the Veigans' actions painted them in a very bad light. What's not ok is for 40 year Flit to be still behaving like a 15 year old. If he can't see that Veigans are humans too, then he is on his way to becoming another Patrick Zala/Ghiren Zabi.

The Veigans are on the edge of the abyss, they don't have many options. They are desperate and when people are desperate they will do things they normally wouldn't. We don't know what we are capable of until we are put in a situation where you have to choose life-or-death, eat nasty stuff or starve to death, pull the trigger first or be killed, etc.

I don't think the Veigans are right nor am I trying to justify them like some seedlings around here do :P, in fact I think their actions have been despicable so far, destroying civilian colonies, taking romary hostage...However, to view them as inhuman and therefore justify their annihilation is going to far IMO.

Unlike Flit, Grodek didn't make any rationalizations, he was driven by simple, petty revenge, and that's why I liked his character so much. He never tried to justify what he was doing, he just did it because he wanted to, for self gratification. They took something from him so he was gonna get back at them. I can respect that. Flit in the other hand had a chance to get his revenge, and let it go, so instead he swore he'd wipe out ALL of the Veigans. That goes beyond any sort of personal vendetta, it's irrational and I'm beginning to think he has some sort of god complex as he wants to be "savior" and wipe out a pretty big large number of people. But hey, for all we know he could be making them favor by killing them all if they are not able to return to the Earth Sphere.
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Old 2012-03-01, 19:52   Link #988
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I was fine with 15 year old Flit saying he'd never forgive the Veigans and that he'd wipe them all out. That's a realistic point of view for a teenager as they act and behave based on emotions, not reason. Flit was clearly hurt by the loss of his mother, Yurin and others close to him. It's OK for him to turn that sense of loss into anger, and for him to direct it at the Veigans. It was even ok for him to say they are inhuman. After all, the Veigans' actions painted them in a very bad light. What's not ok is for 40 year Flit to be still behaving like a 15 year old. If he can't see that Veigans are humans too, then he is on his way to becoming another Patrick Zala/Ghiren Zabi.

The Veigans are on the edge of the abyss, they don't have many options. They are desperate and when people are desperate they will do things they normally wouldn't. We don't know what we are capable of until we are put in a situation where you have to choose life-or-death, eat nasty stuff or starve to death, pull the trigger first or be killed, etc.

I don't think the Veigans are right nor am I trying to justify them like some seedlings around here do :P, in fact I think their actions have been despicable so far, destroying civilian colonies, taking romary hostage...However, to view them as inhuman and therefore justify their annihilation is going to far IMO.

Unlike Flit, Grodek didn't make any rationalizations, he was driven by simple, petty revenge, and that's why I liked his character so much. He never tried to justify what he was doing, he just did it because he wanted to, for self gratification. They took something from him so he was gonna get back at them. I can respect that. Flit in the other hand had a chance to get his revenge, and let it go, so instead he swore he'd wipe out ALL of the Veigans. That goes beyond any sort of personal vendetta, it's irrational and I'm beginning to think he has some sort of god complex as he wants to be "savior" and wipe out a pretty big large number of people. But hey, for all we know he could be making them favor by killing them all if they are not able to return to the Earth Sphere.
I'm pretty sure there has been a lot of adults in times of war who has rationalized things the way Flit has. Flit sees their aniliation as a way to defend the peace within the EF, because the Veigan act like they're not going to stop. There are likely exceptions of course but its probably the things that the Veigans have gone through which justifies wiping them out, because they're not going to stop. Of course, that's far from the right thing to do because defeating them in a war then imposing harsh restrictions+propaganda would be far prefable to anilliating them, but from Flit's point of view that's all that can be done because he thinks they are not redeemable.

Adults think on emotion as well, humans in general do. That's why so many wars for so many centuries have been quite bloody. Its just a human thing to be emotional and not all humans can rise up and be the paragon of forgiveness and reconciliation, your life history just affects how you view things as an adult. Acting like Flit isn't being like a 15 year old, its being human and its usually worse when you are in the middle of the same war rather than after it because the Veigans are still doing what they are doing. The Veigans are acting human as well, trying to take back what they want plus getting revenge for the bad things that was done to them just so others can live more comfortably in the past.

Also note that Grodek didn't do Flit any favors when he basically said that the Veigans aren't human. In fact, at the end of episode 10 when Flit mentioned that "The UE are....human?", Grodek goes on to say that "No matter what they look like, they aren't human". Flit isn't really warm to the UE at this point, but Grodek was really playing him to basically do what he does best and pilot the Gundam to fight the UE, he's been doing it and encouraging it for the whole chapter. Flit would have done it regardless, but Grodek certainly played this to his advantage in his campaign.

Although the way I see it though, while the hate is there , Flit truly does believe that the UE are unredeemable at this point and thinking rationally can be hard when your in a long drawn out war with many causualties. To him, its a logical course of action since they refuse to cease what they are doing and the EF will not concede to the Veigan's likely unrealistic demands (again, I don't think either side will be offering something fair to the other here, I think both will have pretty unrealistic demands that the other won't even consider and in a situation like that there is little negotiating that can be done), so part of it is nationalism as well emotional as well. Fighting so many battles on the front lines and seeing many people being killed likely in his years of service would have not softened up his viewpoints on them either.

Honestly, I'm really itching to see more of Veigan society. To see the conditions they currently live in and had to live in when they were abandoned. We've only seen a bit of the military so far but I like the fact that thic chapter is opening the Veigans up. Details would be nice.
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Old 2012-03-01, 23:37   Link #989
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After all, the Veigans' actions painted them in a very bad light. What's not ok is for 40 year Flit to be still behaving like a 15 year old. If he can't see that Veigans are humans too, then he is on his way to becoming another Patrick Zala/Ghiren Zabi.
What are you going to do when they keep refusing peace treaty, and attacking your land/citizen?
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Old 2012-03-02, 00:19   Link #990
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What are you going to do when they keep refusing peace treaty, and attacking your land/citizen?
We'd have to see the terms of the peace treaties. For all we know the terms and conditions are unacceptable to the Veigans. If things are so bad in their homeland, those treaties call for them to stay there and keep dying, then they can't and will never accept them.
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Old 2012-03-02, 00:50   Link #991
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Some of the treaties in the 25 year timeskip could also have been reasonable (allowing them to return to earth) but were still rejected by Sir Ezelcant. The Vegans seems to be focused on occupying earth, all while exacting their brand of justice on the EFF citizens. Negotiations had already failed at this point of the story, with both sides gearing up for their respective invasion plans; Zeheart's Day of Return and Flit's hinted operation to stop the Vegan attacks.
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Old 2012-03-02, 01:58   Link #992
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We'd have to see the terms of the peace treaties. For all we know the terms and conditions are unacceptable to the Veigans. If things are so bad in their homeland, those treaties call for them to stay there and keep dying, then they can't and will never accept them.
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Some of the treaties in the 25 year timeskip could also have been reasonable (allowing them to return to earth) but were still rejected by Sir Ezelcant. The Vegans seems to be focused on occupying earth, all while exacting their brand of justice on the EFF citizens. Negotiations had already failed at this point of the story, with both sides gearing up for their respective invasion plans; Zeheart's Day of Return and Flit's hinted operation to stop the Vegan attacks.

Honestly, while I think both sides will probably have unrealistic demands for the other and make such a treaty unfeasible, I think the Veigan's are more unlikely to accept a decent treaty than the EF if one does appear. The EF are hardly saints but relatively speaking there hasn't been much extremism in the way they act so far in the present times (except maybe Flit and his wipe Veigan from the universe opinion of course), probably because unlike the Veigans, they're living in better conditions even during the current war and probably don't have all that bent up anger over the years.

I find unlikely the EF are going to offer them to return to Earth though. The Earth population will likely be against such a move by having the "murderous" Veigans coming back into their soil where there might create trouble (the usual elements of racism and the such, with the race I'm referring to being faction-wise in this context). When you've been separated for a long time, sometimes there's going to be a sense of alienation the people of Earth will feel for the Martians.

I also have a feeling that its more than just survival here. The Veigans I think are also out for vengence for what the EF did to them, they really want to get back at them while winning a decisive victory and overthrow the EF. Not that I blame them for feeling that way.
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Old 2012-03-02, 02:51   Link #993
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On an note unrelated to the current discussion, I get the feeling that the Asem/Zeheart rivalry will end in some sort of tragedy that may be unrelated to their past friendship.

Usually in media, when someone has to wear some equipment constantly lest they cause some sort of malfunction or degrade its performance, like this mask needed for Zeheart's X-Rounder abilities with the Zeydra, the reverse tends to be true as well--constant use of it will damage the wearer in some manner. So I'm wondering if this mask of Zeheart's may cause some mental damage to him, or twist his mindset for the worst.

And it doesn't help that his brother is a power-hungry psychopath--Desil certainly didn't seem thrilled about his little brother's promotion, and he's making threats and insinuations about reporting it to the Veigan leader.
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Old 2012-03-02, 04:21   Link #994
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That was exactly my first suspicion about the mask as well. If they go that route though the Veigans end up loosing the main symbol of their humanity. I suppose Romary could always turn out to be one. Perhaps coming from a family that would rather assimilate discreetly back into the Earth population. Heck, I kind of suspect that blond subordinate of Flit's to be one as well.
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Old 2012-03-03, 10:49   Link #995
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Spoiler for Who's that MS?!:
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Old 2012-03-03, 11:17   Link #996
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^^^

Oh boy, there comes the next wave of 'AGE is Gundam: Digimon' critiques.
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Old 2012-03-03, 11:43   Link #997
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Spoiler for Who's that MS?!:
Looks like a 3rd generation Baqto's alternate form.
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Old 2012-03-03, 11:48   Link #998
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Spoiler for Here's comes new Veigan MS:


Spoiler for HG AGE-3:
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Old 2012-03-03, 12:05   Link #999
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These news about the 3rd gen really kills any hope for a third AGE-2 wear don't they?

And still no HG kit news for the Khornos?

Asemu's arc feels short...
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Old 2012-03-03, 13:42   Link #1000
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Stylus/pen looks out of place and weird.
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