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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 12 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 9 22.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 30.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 7.50%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 5.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 5.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-02, 02:53   Link #1
Kairin
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Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana III, Episode 21.

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Old 2012-03-02, 14:23   Link #2
tsunade666
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boring episode. Too much talk and even if the crimson lords start attacking the gods of earth still long talk. And to kill it off is another long talk with Kazumi and Johann.
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Old 2012-03-02, 14:32   Link #3
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So what Shana shot was actually something that changed the spell to include a new law. Nice to see more of Johann and Pheles. Did i hear right Sale is the Professor's son?
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Old 2012-03-02, 16:19   Link #4
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What a good cliffhanger you've done there, J.C.
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Old 2012-03-02, 16:27   Link #5
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8/10. Pretty good episode, although the last few episodes were better. The story didn't move along by a lot. This episode was mostly focused on everyone's respective battles. There was too little focus on Yuji/Shana this episode in my opinion.

Guess I was right about Shana's plan. Shana forcefully put in some data, which would result in a rule being created which will stop the tomogara from disrupting the balance in the new world. Making sure that humans can't be eaten over there, and thus can't be changed into power of existence, will stop the forming of distortions and will protect the balance of both Xanadu and the 'greater world'. I guess Shana fulfilled her duty as a flame haze this way.

Using Shana's unrestricted spell they made sure that everyone in Misaki City would be able to hear the new rule as well. I guess that they did this so that the tomogara in Misaki City will know about this rule and that they will be able to spread the word to the other tomogara later in Xanadu.

I guess the 3 remaining gods of the motherland had another mission as well, aside from stalling the tomogara. They are killing as much tomogara as they can in order to set an example for the coming generations of tomogara: Those who eat humans and disrupt the balance that way will face punishment without mercy.

I get the feeling that the main reason why SnH got so angry is because he got a blow to his pride. He's angry that his paradise has been alterned, since he is the one who was supposed to make this world for the tomogara. The tomogara wished for this world and he awoke to fulfil that wish. The tomogara will become happy because of him, their god. He wants to be worshipped like that. Nobody was supposed to alter it. Yuji shouldn't really have a reason to be angry with this new rule though, since this fits in with his wish to create a world where humans and tomogara can coexist. I wonder what will come out of this.

As for Johan and Pheles, I guess Johan was the one who gave the flame haze the piece they needed to change the Taimei Shihen after all. It seems he really was 'dying' inside the Reiji Maigo, so he made a plan. He wants to 'overcome death' and to 'leave hope behind'. It probably has something to do with that thing Rofocale saw in the minivan. Johan's planning to use SnH/Yuji's plan to make this happen somehow. I guess he needs to PoE that will be used to create Xanadu.

Johan als has a message for Wilhelmina, their friend. And he wants Kazumi to convey this message to her. I wonder what it'll be. It will probably be some kind of explanation of their plan. I have the feeling that we won't be seeing Johan and Pheles again though. To me, it felt like they were saying their farewells during that scene with Kazumi.

By the way, I had to raise one of my eyebrows at the first scene. Sydonay was still being held by Wilhelmina and Margery in his humanoid form when Shana fired the Chorde at the end of episode 20. In the beginning of this episode he was freely flying in his transformed state when Shana fired those Chorde. Guess they made a small mistake there.

And wow at that cliffhanger.
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Old 2012-03-02, 17:47   Link #6
elior
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i was shocked about the proffesor been sale father is it true he is father or there is somthing else about it?
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Old 2012-03-02, 18:19   Link #7
alvinkhorfire
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Are both Johan and Pheles still inside the van? And, they are actually convey the message to Kazumi through dream, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
Based on the informative replies given by others, I shall try to determine how Shana learnt Taimei Shihen.

Sequence
1. While still in Reiji Maigo inside Yuji, Johan learnt the spell of Taimei Shihen.
2. Somehow, Johan passed the knowledge of using Taimei Shihen to Lamies.
3. Lamies passed the scroll of secrets to Wilhelmina. This scroll was seen in 5 minutes 30 seconds in Episode 16.
4. Wilhelmina passed it to Margery and Sale for them to analyze. They were analyzing the spell, as shown in around 4 minutes in Episode 17.
5. After it was unlocked, Shana learnt Taimei Shihen.
In this episode, Johan himself says that he is the one who gives the scroll of secret.

Is there any reason for the denizens to attack the van? Due to the command of Pirsoyn?
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Old 2012-03-02, 18:40   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elior View Post
i was shocked about the proffesor been sale father is it true he is father or there is somthing else about it?
Sale said that he's an artificial flame haze, a flame haze created by someone else. In episode 16 he says that his reason to go to this battle is because he wants to stop the one who created him from going to Xanadu. And we learned that his creator is Dantalion. So in a way, I guess you could say that he's his father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
Are both Johan and Pheles still inside the van? And, they are actually convey the message to Kazumi through dream, right?
They don't seem to be phyisically present in the minivan anymore. But I guess that they're still there in some kind of way. It probably has something to do with the thing Rofocale saw in the previous episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
Is there any reason for the denizens to attack the van? Due to the command of Pirsoyn?
Hyakki Yakou acted against Bal Masque by 'stealing' Kazumi and 'damaging' their leader, so I guess that all tomogara have been ordered (probably by Bel Peol) to hunt them down.

I don't think Yuji/SnH ordered this, since he still cares about Kazumi.
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Old 2012-03-02, 19:50   Link #9
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I get the feeling that the main reason why SnH got so angry is because he got a blow to his pride. He's angry that his paradise has been alterned, since he is the one who was supposed to make this world for the tomogara. The tomogara wished for this world and he awoke to fulfil that wish. The tomogara will become happy because of him, their god. He wants to be worshipped like that. Nobody was supposed to alter it. Yuji shouldn't really have a reason to be angry with this new rule though, since this fits in with his wish to create a world where humans and tomogara can coexist. I wonder what will come out of this.
Well it was their hard work that put it together so for their eternal enemies to change it is a blow to them morally.

On that end I don't see how Yuji could be upset at this.

The Flame Hazes plan is interesting though.

If you want to go to the new world, that's great, but this is a reminder of what'll happen if you ever dare set foot here. In that case Earth will become a "forbidden zone" or that "the land where the boogeyman lives" where the Denizens will believe that there exists monsters that will tear them to pieces if they ever set foot on it.

It's not perfect but it's a good way for the Flame Hazes to ensure that the new world will not affect the old one in any way.
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Old 2012-03-02, 20:04   Link #10
liquidblueocean
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Originally Posted by Deathscyther View Post
8/10. Pretty good episode, although the last few episodes were better. The story didn't move along by a lot. This episode was mostly focused on everyone's respective battles. There was too little focus on Yuji/Shana this episode in my opinion.
Yeah. Boring episode.
Too much tying-up of side-stories is gonna be done... seems like there was too much of them at the expense of the main story focus, Yuji and Shana. Needs a rewrite to tone them down a bit, decreasing unnecessary detail.
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Old 2012-03-02, 23:09   Link #11
~Yami~
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10/10

I give a high score because finally I can understand a lot of things
that talking is very important...
and Shana's plan to alter Xanadu is very simple
honestly, I'm still thinking that Ramies was ordered to give Taimei Shihen to Wilhelmina by Yuji because he hope Shana will do this job...
each one of Flame Haze has different reasoning for joining this battle then because most of their plan has been finished

and that's a very scary resolution from Gods of Earth... so their goal is to kick out the general and make them to be frightened by the might of Flame Haze power
maybe in Xanadu, if somehow there is a tomogara eats human, Flame Haze will be summoned to spread fear once again... hahaha
they don't show most of Gods of Earth's battle because looks like they're winning easily... Haborym and Ribesal really can't keep up with them

now, I want to see how Sale-Chiara will defeat Dantalion-Mammon.. both of them are too dangerous for Xanadu

I'm glad that Johan-Pheles still considering Wilhelmina as their friend... now, are they planning to be in Xanadu to maintain Johan's existence??? or maybe they already given up?? and where are they right now??

Yuji and Shana expression in the end of episode is very good... because of their battle, Yoshida is sacrificed.... hahaha... I hope to see two of them will head toward the van to check Yoshida's condition before continuing their battle

3 more episode.... and I'm looking for a full episode for Yuji and Shana's battle
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Old 2012-03-02, 23:58   Link #12
Proto
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There was certainly a lot of talking, but the characters and their motives are moving along so it's all good for me. Yay.
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Old 2012-03-03, 00:13   Link #13
Crontica
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10/10

Yeah this episode sent chills down my spine, it pretty much validated and subverted every character trope known to mankind.

Lets go through the series that flashed through my head as i watched this,
Steins gate (Same Scientist, naturally occurring the wrath of chessmasters and puppet masters alike)

Haruhi Suzumiya (I guess that role goes to Sekai Yuji, what offset me here is how the laws of vengeance with the four gods were pushed completely beyond their limits, it sounds like nothing but plain hitler-ism at this point, the closed eye persona does not help matters )

Monster (At first i thought it was just a coincidence hearing the name of Johan but after that king speech i'm not so sure, it looks like he is able to see the field of blades as shown in -Fate stay night- -Kami no Puzzle- -Kuroshitsuji- this usually occurs when a chessmasters battle turns into anarchy, the only way out of this is to find a way to break the entire chessboard)

D gray man tvtrope summaries

Code Geass

Guilty Crown.

Whew so intense, while restraining my self from humming a tone that so desperately needs to be said, KAZUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMI!!!
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Old 2012-03-03, 08:08   Link #14
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
10/10

Yeah this episode sent chills down my spine, it pretty much validated and subverted every character trope known to mankind.

Lets go through the series that flashed through my head as i watched this,
Steins gate (Same Scientist, naturally occurring the wrath of chessmasters and puppet masters alike)

Haruhi Suzumiya (I guess that role goes to Sekai Yuji, what offset me here is how the laws of vengeance with the four gods were pushed completely beyond their limits, it sounds like nothing but plain hitler-ism at this point, the closed eye persona does not help matters )

Monster (At first i thought it was just a coincidence hearing the name of Johan but after that king speech i'm not so sure, it looks like he is able to see the field of blades as shown in -Fate stay night- -Kami no Puzzle- -Kuroshitsuji- this usually occurs when a chessmasters battle turns into anarchy, it only way out of this is to find a way to break the entire chessboard)

D gray man tvtrope summaries

Code Geass

Guilty Crown.

Whew so intense, while restraining my self from humming a tone that so desperately needs to be said, KAZUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMI!!!
A Flame-Haze like method by the top Flame-Hazes....did you actually expect any better from them?
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Old 2012-03-03, 09:47   Link #15
elleinad00
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Y U CLIFFHANGER


It wasn't really boring even though there are too many chit-chat thingys. Like~Yami~ said we understand more things now.

I really love Johann & Pheles!!! PERFECT COUPLE!!!! I nearly cried when Johann said that he's going to disappear.... It felt really heavy in my heart.

So Dantalion is Sale's father......

Yey!!! Lerajie & Orbas, Mammon IN ACTION!! YEY!!

Even though I don't like Kazumi...... when the car exploded I almost shouted "KAZUMIIIIII!!!! KHAMSIN-SAN!!!" and I was like -> + but oh well.....

Argh 3 more episodes and IT IS DONE
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Old 2012-03-03, 13:05   Link #16
taichi-kun
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I think shana and yuuji should stop fighting now... there is no reason to continue...

Hecate was still there!

Johan gave the scroll of secrets to lamies right?,for a moment I thought there were 2 and one was in yoshida's hands.
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Old 2012-03-03, 15:30   Link #17
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They skip so much yet they leave the ED? Wtf are they doing, 1-2 minutes can definitely make a difference, especially when this is it.

Hopefully they'll start skipping Op's or hopefully ED's, because I'm getting tired of the generic wallpaper.
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Old 2012-03-03, 16:31   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
A Flame-Haze like method by the top Flame-Hazes....did you actually expect any better from them?
Well their job IS to protect the balance so I'm not sure how comparing them to Hilter is a good comparison.

Most if not all of the Flame Hazes became that because they were wronged by the Denizens one way or the other. South Valley must've really been beaten badly a long time ago to have that much hatred.

I don't see anything wrong with them changing the law to have it so that the Denizens cannot eat humans....I'm more suprised that Yuji didn't even put that in in the first place to begin with which I suppose lends to Johan's lecture about him being so uptight about it.

And they want to instill as much fear and terror into the Denizens so that their descendants will not forget the crimes and punishments that awaits them if they ever dared set foot on Earth again.

Yuji created Xanadu, the Flame Hazes simply continued in their duties by making sure that down the road the new world wouldn't affect the old worlds or at least minimize the risks.
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Old 2012-03-03, 19:40   Link #19
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I don't see anything wrong with them changing the law to have it so that the Denizens cannot eat humans....I'm more suprised that Yuji didn't even put that in in the first place to begin with which I suppose lends to Johan's lecture about him being so uptight about it.
Especially since SnH/Yuji wants to create a world where humans and tomogara can coexist, since he said in episode 17 that the tomogara now wish for a world full of humans that will live with them and create things. That's why he's creating a copy of this world.

Maybe SnH let Yuji help with the execution of the plan, but he didn't let him change any of the rules for the new world. As we could see this episode, he seems to think that as their god, he is the one who should bring the tomogara happiness. He doesn't want anyone else to alter his plans. SnH is making the world for the tomogara after all, so I guess he cares less about the humans than Yuji does.
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Old 2012-03-03, 21:11   Link #20
alvinkhorfire
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Originally Posted by Deathscyther View Post
I have a feeling that Johan was slowly dying within the Reiji Maigo. He was still a human when he was transported into the Reiji Maigo, right? He was injured pretty heavily by Sabrac after all and living within a treasure tool for so long can't be very healthy either. Maybe even taking the Reiji Maigo for himself isn't enough to keep him alive. If that's really the case, then it makes sense for him to leave it behind, since he has no use for it anymore. This would explain why Pheles was so hesitant about fulfilling Johan's wishes.
Your earlier guess is indeed proven correct in this episode. Well done!

At that point, he had become a mystes, since he is a torch with a hougu, which is Reiji Maigo. I cannot understand why he was slowing drying within the hougu. He could just take a portion of power of existence, generated from Reiji Maigo, to cure his injury. After all, he is the creator of Reiji Maigo.
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