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Old 2012-03-03, 15:09   Link #5221
Drifloon
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The seal thing was a really stupid plot device that wasn't even necessary, honestly.

The same effect could have been achieved by Dlanor just saying in red that 'Neither Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, nor Nanjo escaped through the window!' That would have still made it unsolvable without using ShKanon, without having to make up a silly rule that didn't even make any sense.
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Old 2012-03-03, 15:24   Link #5222
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You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5. I guess Ryukishi wanted the bad guys to be able to just....fucking cheat, I guess?
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Old 2012-03-03, 15:53   Link #5223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.
Oooo... you're getting close. 8)

In a way, I think I understand the whole Umineko event from Ryukishi's point of view now, how he would read the message boards and see people talking about their theories. When you read something like what Random's been saying you can only think, "You're so close! You're almost there!" He sees that people have been gathering up the clues he left in the text and how it's basically one MORE step. I can see how it really is just 'one more step!' from there... but...

Of course, I remember when I went through this and I know just how hard it is to put all the pieces together and figure it out. I don't think it was really as easy as Ryukishi thought. That last step was a real doozy... 8)

Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)
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Old 2012-03-03, 17:17   Link #5224
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I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

Spoiler for An alternate solution to the Logic Error:
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Old 2012-03-03, 17:19   Link #5225
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)
Would you like me to read to you, Featherine?

Quote:
You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5.
Yeah, people said "oh look, the red doesn't work like it used to."
No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.

Like Battler's "logic error": in EP4, they couldn't even speak in red something that wasn't true. So Battler would never be able to have made a logic error to begin with, simply because of the way red works. He wouldn't have been able to say it in red to begin with if it wasn't true.
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Last edited by RandomAvatarFan; 2012-03-03 at 18:59.
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Old 2012-03-03, 17:57   Link #5226
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No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.
Except courts don't work that way. And Virgilia's been comparing the game to a 'court' since EP3, so why the sudden rule change? Lambda and Bern and Erika are just cheating jerks.
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Old 2012-03-03, 18:58   Link #5227
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The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.

And Lyrical, I assumed the whole "Erika couldn't have existed in the hallway," didn't matter because Battler and Erika may have acknowledged that Piece!Erika would have been excluded, from the check since she herself was doing the checking. It is an interesting point, because they didn't say one way or the other. Your musings on Kanon = "Kinzo" was something I was toying with since I finished reading EP4. I do wonder if he is related to Kinzo, and is Natsuhi's son from 19 years ago. According to Natsuhi, Kinzo did want her to treat the child as if he was her own son, so Kinzo would have seen him as a blood relation as well regardless.
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Last edited by RandomAvatarFan; 2012-03-03 at 19:10.
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Old 2012-03-03, 19:30   Link #5228
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Quote:
The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.
It's not that the red has different rules so much that Bern and Lambda basically get to do whatever they want without consequence and they're never called on it. It's not at all a fair game and Erika's team is constantly cheating.
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Old 2012-03-04, 03:48   Link #5229
Drifloon
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Personally what bugs me about the E5 trial is the way Beatrice's situation is presented rather than the inconsistencies with the way red truth works. Shouldn't Beatrice's responsibility be to prove that Natsuhi COULDN'T have done it, making a 'witch culprit theory' the only possibility? Showing that someone else could have done it doesn't prove Natsuhi's innocence, and it just breaks the Illusion of the Witch even more. I really didn't get how it kept saying that Beatrice felt pain from the Illusion of the Witch being denied whenever it was proved that one of the people other than Natsuhi couldn't have done it, since that's actually STRENGTHENING the credibility of the 'witch culprit theory'.
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Old 2012-03-04, 03:53   Link #5230
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Because the Beatrice of EP5 represents Natsuhi's delusions, specifically.
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Old 2012-03-08, 10:22   Link #5231
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

Spoiler for An alternate solution to the Logic Error:
[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged


[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.


At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

So... Erika is not Kanon since they have seperate bodies... and you also said that Erika is only a different personality of Shannon and not of Kanon. And even if Erika's perspective is "unreliable", she cannot confirm something, that she didn't really do (the seals), so only her could put the seals in its place. Oh i almost forgot: Erika got 3 rooms worth of duct tape. And if you take this as it is in EP8, where the master keys were bound to the servants and couldn't be removed, then we can also say that Erika was not able to give away her duct tape. Therefore it is impossible for anyone, but Furudo Erika to put on the seals, which is impossible by your theory, because she was inside the next room over.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-08 at 10:41.
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Old 2012-03-08, 11:49   Link #5232
LyricalAura
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Fooool, you think that defense will work? My theory requires her to be able to seal remotely, but yours requires her to exist in four places at once!

Time was frozen the moment Erika left the cousins' room, and yet she was able to seal both the doors (from the hallway) AND all of the 2F windows (from outside) instantaneously? Ridiculous. That alone was enough proof that those duct tape seals don't physically exist on the game board as anything but a narratively convenient fantasy. Where did it say in red that those doors and windows were sealed with duct tape?
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Old 2012-03-08, 14:49   Link #5233
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Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!

Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!
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Old 2012-03-12, 09:11   Link #5234
Hoshino Kazuki
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May I ask a question?
In the second game, Beatrice said in red that: there are 18 people in this island
In the fourth game, she said: the actual number of people in this island is 17
but at the end of this episode, it is said that Erika is the 17th people, so there are only 16 people right? So why is Beatrice was able to said those statement in red? I though the red can only tell the truth?
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Old 2012-03-12, 11:20   Link #5235
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^

I believe the actual statement from alliance is "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"

Big difference in wording, so nobody was lying.
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Old 2012-03-12, 14:47   Link #5236
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Yup, in the second game she says "No more than 18 people" 17 and 16 are no more than 18.
In the fourth game she says "No more than 17 people" 16 is still no more than 18.

Which is funny because once you add what they say at the end of this chapter, the fourth game red "This is true for all games." is still in effect, even with the addition of Erika.
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Old 2012-03-20, 11:01   Link #5237
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!![

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!
I refuse! The room was not sealed with a "thing" at all. The "seal" was nothing more than an authorial agreement to notify Erika when the sealed door or window was opened! As for your clues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!
Furudo Erika is not the detective. Furthermore, Knox's 2nd was never stated during the sixth game. In fact, that game isn't independently solvable without reference to the love duel witnessed by Beatrice, so Knox's 2nd could never apply to it in the first place! Not to mention that if the guesthouse seals were physical duct tape, Piece-Erika couldn't possibly check them remotely while in the mansion, so Meta-Erika could only have used "supernatural" techniques to get that information!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!
True, true. But that blade cuts both ways, you know? For instance, who ever said that all of the seals were placed from the outside? Erika sealed the next room over while she was still inside it, and then broke the window seal herself! Therefore, it's possible even if she really used duct tape!
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Old 2012-03-20, 11:18   Link #5238
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Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^

Also: Furudo Erika is a human

And: exclusivly in this game the number of "people" is equal to the number of "bodies".

A dead body is still a body, be it as a corpse or as a living human, therefore by your logic, Kanon cannot leave the room and must still exist inside it.

and even if you deny that, then:

When Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room, There were 17 people., that means before Kanon died, there must have been 18 people. No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima. This applies to all games! Adding Erika to the number, as it was done in EP5, did NOT happen here yet! Therefore there is 1 person too much on Rokkenjima and this theory fails!

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-20 at 11:41.
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Old 2012-03-20, 11:26   Link #5239
LyricalAura
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Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^
Oh, that's right. What was it Beato said to Erika? Something like: "Go ahead and remove that seal if you want. You're the one it's locking up now."
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Old 2012-03-20, 12:18   Link #5240
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