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Old 2012-03-06, 10:29   Link #121
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
if 1 person killing the uchiha clan wasn't believable, then why would you assume that only 2 people did it? it's still a very small number against a whole village. it might as well be one person. it just adds to the retcon theory since kishi wanted to implant tobi into the story more and he wanted to make itachi seem more like a noble person, so adding tobi diverted a lot of the evilness of the massacre away from itachi and onto tobi and then later onto the elders. itachi wasn't the sole perpetrator anymore.
well the truth is, i didn't exactly think that there were only two people involved. i didn't even think itachi did it. i suspected that he just took on all the blame for some reason. i mean, we weren't really shown that it was itachi who killed everyone. we saw the massacre from how sasuke remembered it. so who's to say that itachi really did all those things? when it was revealed that itachi really did do it with the help of madara, who is supposed to be the most powerful uchiha in existence, yeah i believed it was possible. a man who supposedly died years ago, who fought on par with the shodai hokage, you tend to believe that it is possible for him and itachi (who happened to be the most promising ninja to have come out of the uchiha in decades) to wipe out the uchiha clan by themselves.

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I think he left a lot of these odd situations open to have several possible futures. none of what you mentioned actually negates itachi having a future where he was in fact evil. of course that didn't end up happening but itachi being troubled, or leaving kakashi alive after severely torturing him, or kisame not knowing why they left, etc... do not directly imply that itachi is good. they merely cast more mystery on him. he could have been really evil and was plotting something involving kakashi and jiraiya in the future and needed them alive. (not that jiraiya was a pushover anyway)
if kishi left these so-called situations open to have several possible futures as you say, then it's like saying that none of these things were definite, including your claim that itachi was evil in the beginning until kishi decided to change it.
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Old 2012-03-06, 10:38   Link #122
Hunter
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think that is just semantics. a red herring loses its value when it is proven to be a misdirection since it no longer possesses the potential it once had
Yes it is semantic, as in using the correct words for the correct situation so we can understand each others.
Hints doesn't disappear when they don't turn up into what you though they would, they are still an integrant part of the story.
In part 1 the entire character of Kabuto was built on the hints that he was potentially a treacherous fellow even to Orochimaru. The hints were always there :
  • Does he really intend to kill Sasuke? No he had sensed Kakashi behind him.
  • Does he really intend to stop Tsunade to heal Oro? No he had sensed her killing intent.
  • Does he really intend to side with Sasori against Oro? No he was in fact a double agent.
Finally after Orochimaru's desmise we learned that Kabuto had always been completely loyal to his master, all those hints didn't go anywhere. that doesn't mean they were nullified though, they are still an integrant part of the character.

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I still think it's open ended. I don't speak japanese, but the translation I have says: "There's a man that only I can kill. That time... crying... my... I have to become stronger than him." he seems to be saying how strong itachi is and that he must get to be stronger, so why would he throw in that itachi was crying? its antithetical to his sentiment of itachi being a strong opponent he must one day overcome, not a crybaby like sasuke believed himself to be at that time
There is nothing open ended about this, nor is it about being a crybaby. Sasuke was remembering "that time" ie the massacre, and talked about his brother.
The fact that it seemed antithetical with the notion of his monstruous brother (which has nothing to do with strength) is the whole point of the flachback. I mean do you really read what you write? Why would Sasuke throw in that Itachi was crying? What about because he actually saw him cry? He couldn't believe he really did because he couldn't accept it after what his brother had done. Hell, it's not like we're guessing at this point, we were flatly told this is the case.
Which by the way is a point you haven't addressed yet again, you claimed that it didn't refer to Itachi because Sasuke didn't remember which is false.
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because in part 2 the hints are totally apparent and not worth debating since that's when the retcon began to fully manifest and it wasn't just open ended cryptic oddities.
These hints were no more absolute than in part 1, we still didn't know for sure about Itachi until after his death.
Quote:
thanks for pointed them out =) you're assuming that kishi knew the whole time that itachi was going to be good though. I think he left a lot of these odd situations open to have several possible futures. none of what you mentioned actually negates itachi having a future where he was in fact evil. of course that didn't end up happening but itachi being troubled, or leaving kakashi alive after severely torturing him, or kisame not knowing why they left, etc... do not directly imply that itachi is good. they merely cast more mystery on him. he could have been really evil and was plotting something involving kakashi and jiraiya in the future and needed them alive. (not that jiraiya was a pushover anyway)
I'm not assuming anything, I state that they were many events hinting at this possibility. I never liked the idea of Itachi being a good guy, I have argued as much for years about why I thought it was a bad idea but I always admitted that the possibility was indeed there.
Anyways, I don't understand what point you are trying to get accross in this paragraph, of course we didn't know for sure, that's why it's called a hint.

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I agree with Discerptor on this. did Itachi ever claim he was making sasuke a hero? in this latest chapter he actually tells sasuke that he wanted to create an avenger. it was tobi who tried to convince sasuke otherwise. or maybe they're all just lying, but either way itachi has never identified with the hero persona. itachi was always a bit disturbed and mentally strained from his genius so he's not really the best judge of morality
Of course he wanted to create an avenger : an avenger as in the man who had finally brought down one of Konoha 's most bitter ennemy, the monster who had slaughtered his own clan. Not a man incapable of feeling anything but anger and hatred and who'd turn against anyone he feels responsible or even vaguely related to the object of his wrath.
Itachi said as much to Naruto, he expected Sasuke to return to Konoha and walk the "right path" blahblahblah. Instead Sasuke learned the truth and wasn't so happy about it.

Well maybe not the truth, considering the author inability to soil Konoha's good name I wouldn't be surprised if we get to learn that the Uchiha were all evil Juubist who secretely intended to bring it back to earth. Or something.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
By the Narutoverse standards Itachi's actions were logical, if we think about Gaara's father's actions then Itachi's seem ok
And there are countless other examples, for example Naruto's father deciding the way he did.
Gaara's father's actions were mindblowingly studid and so unsurprinsingly it blew up in his face but even then he had more of a leg to stand on. He wanted to know if Gaara could keep his control in the worst situation so he put him into the worst situation he could think of. It was dumb and turned badly but at least he found out what he expected.
There was no logical process in Minato's decision. He believed, period. And being who he is, everything turned out even better than expected.

Itachi on the other hand is supposed to have done all this to make Sasuke a hero walking the "right path". So what does he do after killing their family? He tortures him, beats him up, tells him to live a unsigthly live, embrace his hatred and kill his best friend to gain enough power to face him.
What does he do the next time they met when Sasuke had actually made a few friends and started to warm up to others in spite of himself? More of the same, more torture, more beating and more about the necessity to become a hatefull person living only for revenge.
It's in fact quite surprising that Sasuke needed so much outside help from other villains to turn up into the fine gentleman he has now become because as I said you wouldn't do any different if you intended to transform a kid into a raging, insane sociopath.
Except that when it finally happens Itachi is all bothered and wonder where it all went wrong. I mean "blank canvas"? Manipulated by Tobi? That's bull, Itachi is the main and nearly sole reason of Sasuke's the state of mind today.
For someone supposed to be so smart (and such a loving brother, hah!) the whole thing simply doesn't make any sense.
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Old 2012-03-06, 11:33   Link #123
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Of course he wanted to create an avenger : an avenger as in the man who had finally brought down one of Konoha 's most bitter ennemy, the monster who had slaughtered his own clan. Not a man incapable of feeling anything but anger and hatred and who'd turn against anyone he feels responsible or even vaguely related to the object of his wrath.
Itachi said as much to Naruto, he expected Sasuke to return to Konoha and walk the "right path" blahblahblah. Instead Sasuke learned the truth and wasn't so happy about it.
While I'm sure Itachi wanted Sasuke to walk the "right path" for Konoha's sake, at this point I'm inclined to believe that he was very emotionally damaged and mostly wanted Sasuke to kill him as a way to atone for his guilt and shame fittingly, a more active approach to the unconsciously suicidal tendencies Suzaku had in Code Geass if you will.

With regards to the "right path," Itachi's backup plan with the crow would seem to suggest that he cared more about it being the end result than he did about it being Sasuke's choice. I'm not saying this is even probably the case, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Itachi's motivations are a lot more focused on his duty to the village and his own emotional needs, with Sasuke simply having been a tool to use to those ends.
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Old 2012-03-06, 13:22   Link #124
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
well the truth is, i didn't exactly think that there were only two people involved. i didn't even think itachi did it. i suspected that he just took on all the blame for some reason. i mean, we weren't really shown that it was itachi who killed everyone. we saw the massacre from how sasuke remembered it. so who's to say that itachi really did all those things? when it was revealed that itachi really did do it with the help of madara, who is supposed to be the most powerful uchiha in existence, yeah i believed it was possible. a man who supposedly died years ago, who fought on par with the shodai hokage, you tend to believe that it is possible for him and itachi (who happened to be the most promising ninja to have come out of the uchiha in decades) to wipe out the uchiha clan by themselves.
I totally agree with you. The only thing I would add is that after itachi showed tsukiomi against kakashi, it became pretty believable that he could wipe out his own clan himself (at least to me). itachi was the only ninja known at the time to have MS and thus be capable of using such a powerful genjutsu, so the rest of the uchiha weren't on that level. at that time in the story, it could be argued that itachi couldn't sustain the technique long enough to wipe out the whole clan, since doing it on kakashi took so much out of him, but that could be countered by saying his ocular power degraded over time and use. plus kishi tends to give characters enough chakra to do whatever he needs them to do regardless of how much chakra they have in other situations. but yea, I totally agree that since we didn't see itachi actually do it, then there were many possibilities. I would maintain that the most prominent feeling we got from itachi during part 1 was evilness though. and then in part 2 he was smiling at naruto, talking to naruto without fighting, etc... very different from his encounters with heroes in part 1 where he tortured people. just my opinion



Quote:
if kishi left these so-called situations open to have several possible futures as you say, then it's like saying that none of these things were definite, including your claim that itachi was evil in the beginning until kishi decided to change it.
sure. you are right. I just meant that it's my belief that kishi intended itachi to be evil in part 1, leaving him open to character development down the line as if he wasn't sure which way to go yet. nothing in part 1 suggests that itachi was good, just more mysterious and deep than a ruthless killer like kisame. i do claim it was a retcon (which isn't a bad thing imo), and like I quoted only means that the previous interpretation of facts (itachi being evil and mysterious) was expounded with more facts added later to show that he actually had selfless and arguably 'good' intentions which were not even close to being revealed in part 1.
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Old 2012-03-06, 17:06   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
While I'm sure Itachi wanted Sasuke to walk the "right path" for Konoha's sake, at this point I'm inclined to believe that he was very emotionally damaged and mostly wanted Sasuke to kill him as a way to atone for his guilt and shame fittingly, a more active approach to the unconsciously suicidal tendencies Suzaku had in Code Geass if you will.

With regards to the "right path," Itachi's backup plan with the crow would seem to suggest that he cared more about it being the end result than he did about it being Sasuke's choice. I'm not saying this is even probably the case, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Itachi's motivations are a lot more focused on his duty to the village and his own emotional needs, with Sasuke simply having been a tool to use to those ends.
I don't think so, Itachi's guilt, his duty to Konoha and his love for his brother are meant to be closely tied up but you can't ignore his love for Sasuke (even twisted at it is) to be one of the main drive behind his actions.
His discussion with Naruto before and after his death made obvious that Sasuke's future is very important to him, he didn't give Naruto the crow before Naruto told him that he would never kill Sasuke no matter what even if Sasuke turned against Konoha, that somehow he would find another way. That's the reason he decided to trust Naruto to handle Sasuke and it makes no sense if you only take duty and guilt into account.
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Old 2012-03-07, 01:20   Link #126
james0246
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The Chapter 577 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2012-03-07, 12:44   Link #127
2Fast
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Great chapter, however.. One thing bothers me. Now they say Hashirama was the strongest shinobi. Madara says that not even the 5 kages together can compare with him, and that the Madara / Hashirama fight was on a complete different scale.

So why was he (+ his brother) beaten by Sarutobi, years ago in the Oruchimaru / Sarutobi fight?
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Old 2012-03-07, 15:18   Link #128
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Originally Posted by 2Fast View Post
Great chapter, however.. One thing bothers me. Now they say Hashirama was the strongest shinobi. Madara says that not even the 5 kages together can compare with him, and that the Madara / Hashirama fight was on a complete different scale.

So why was he (+ his brother) beaten by Sarutobi, years ago in the Oruchimaru / Sarutobi fight?
A) Orochimaru was directly controlling those zombies at the time. If they had retained their original personalities (and been willing to fight somehow), then their performance would have been markedly different. Madara isn't being controlled by Kabuto in the strictest sense right now; even though Kabuto could take complete control at any time, he's fine just letting Madara do his own thing, as he did with the Second Mizukage, Kinkaku + Ginkaku, and the non-eye-freak Akatsuki members. Clearly, the original personality would be best at using his own abilities since he actually has experience using them.

B) Orochimaru's battle was far more psychological than physical: he wanted to make Hiruzen suffer the agony of fighting his teachers and student rather than take him out quickly, and Hiruzen couldn't bring himself to get serious about taking out Orochimaru until it was arguably too late for it to be a real fight. No one was fighting at 100% in that battle. Think of how unimpressive Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan was in the original Star Wars movie for reference.

C) If we want to be technical, all he said was that ninjas as powerful as Hashirama don't exist anymore... Hiruzen doesn't exist anymore.
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