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Old 2012-03-07, 02:01   Link #1301
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Add to what Proto said, the biggest effect she had on Chihaya was how she was disrupting the flow of Chihaya's game. It was a sound strategy. A lot of sports uses it. For example, in American Footbal, timeouts are taken to ice the kicker. In Basketball, time outs are taken to slow down the opponent who suddenly was making almost all the shots. Pretty much the attempt is to disrupt the flow, to slow down the pace, and in turn make your opponent to lose focus and concentration while you regroup. To overcome such attempts, mental strength is a requirement. As Chihaya often demonstrated through out the series in her loses and in her wins, that she has ways to go before she overcomes her lacking in mental toughness.
In football (American) and basketball, coaches do call timeouts to interrupt their opponent's flow of the game. But, doing so has a cost - the team that called a time out has one less time out to use.

In karuta, there is no cost to anyone who wants to resort to such cheap trick. You know who Yumin reminds me of? In last World Cup when the US faced Sengal, those Sengalese started to fake injuries and rolled on the ground for minutes before returning to the game as if nothing had happened. They also walk slower to retrieve the ball. They did all these once they pulled ahead in an effort to run down the clock. It was an infuriating game, and they earned no respect from doing so.

Yumin is a cheap player. Yeah, a win is a win, but is that how you want to build your reputation? I also have a hard believing that she was being honest in all the disputes she raised.
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Old 2012-03-07, 02:25   Link #1302
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
In football (American) and basketball, coaches do call timeouts to interrupt their opponent's flow of the game. But, doing so has a cost - the team that called a time out has one less time out to use.

In karuta, there is no cost to anyone who wants to resort to such cheap trick. You know who Yumin reminds me of? In last World Cup when the US faced Sengal, those Sengalese started to fake injuries and rolled on the ground for minutes before returning to the game as if nothing had happened. They also walk slower to retrieve the ball. They did all these once they pulled ahead in an effort to run down the clock. It was an infuriating game, and they earned no respect from doing so.

Yumin is a cheap player. Yeah, a win is a win, but is that how you want to build your reputation? I also have a hard believing that she was being honest in all the disputes she raised.
The game can certainly use a few regulation to close out some questionable loop-holes. That said, Chihaya was letting Yumin to have those cards, and this wasn't the first time either. When she played Shinobou, something like this happened as well, didn't it? Everyone groaned outloud when she let Shinobou have the card. Also, the sadist guy she defeated employed similar strategy where he would stand up over and over to regroup.

Look, I understand what you are saying, but it also goes to show Chihaya's willingness to win goes down severely when she is under attack. Her mental fortitude is lacking and is easy to crack if an opponent knows what he/she is doing. Whether Yumin was telling the truth or not is certainly debatable, but we can't deny that she was matching Chihaya's speed. This match was a very good lesson for Chihaya. If she still manages to get the resolve to move past this match to go forward, she will be a better player instantly. The lesson here is that life isn't always fair, but you still find a way to make it work. It's about time Chihaya makes a stand for herself.
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Old 2012-03-07, 02:29   Link #1303
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It may be a part of the game, but it's still ugly to watch, and Yumin knows it. I hope Shinobu destroys her again.
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Old 2012-03-07, 03:20   Link #1304
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
The game can certainly use a few regulation to close out some questionable loop-holes. That said, Chihaya was letting Yumin to have those cards, and this wasn't the first time either. When she played Shinobou, something like this happened as well, didn't it? Everyone groaned outloud when she let Shinobou have the card. Also, the sadist guy she defeated employed similar strategy where he would stand up over and over to regroup.

Look, I understand what you are saying, but it also goes to show Chihaya's willingness to win goes down severely when she is under attack. Her mental fortitude is lacking and is easy to crack if an opponent knows what he/she is doing. Whether Yumin was telling the truth or not is certainly debatable, but we can't deny that she was matching Chihaya's speed. This match was a very good lesson for Chihaya. If she still manages to get the resolve to move past this match to go forward, she will be a better player instantly. The lesson here is that life isn't always fair, but you still find a way to make it work. It's about time Chihaya makes a stand for herself.
Stand up and regroup does not get you more cards. Arguing for the sake of arguing (and possibly cheating the opponents out of their cards) is a cheap play, and also a pathetic display of sportsmanship. The worst part is that Yumin knows it's a cheap trick, but she does it because she wants to score a win. It's just shameful.

Yes, Chihaya should have been tougher. But her mental weakness doesn't have the ramification of destroying the sanctity of the game. Yumin is pulling a bushleague play, and it's shameful. Chihaya's mental weakness is of no relevance to whether Yumin's trick is sportsman-like or not.
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Old 2012-03-07, 03:41   Link #1305
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi
Yes, Chihaya should have been tougher. But her mental weakness doesn't have the ramification of destroying the sanctity of the game.
I don't know about that part.... I personally see her as naive who has a lot to grow. Her appeal is her purity, but I also constantly find it annoying how naive she is. I'll also have to say that I'm very hopeful from the way she sat dazed after losing that match. Something must give here that's for sure!

Quote:
Yumin is pulling a bushleague play, and it's shameful. Chihaya's mental weakness is of no relevance to whether Yumin's trick is sportsman-like or not.
Quote:
Stand up and regroup does not get you more cards. Arguing for the sake of arguing (and possibly cheating the opponents out of their cards) is a cheap play, and also a pathetic display of sportsmanship. The worst part is that Yumin knows it's a cheap trick, but she does it because she wants to score a win. It's just shameful.
I don't know about you guys, but I know very little about this game and the strategy that are usually employed to play it. I won't be as critical of Yumin right at this moment without knowing it a bit more. What I did note from watching the episode is that the spectators of the match weren't as outraged and they are all Karuta players. They describe her with terms such as "stubborn" or "doesn't give up" or etc. Chihaya gave in after she declared "this has become difficult."
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Old 2012-03-07, 04:15   Link #1306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I don't know about you guys, but I know very little about this game and the strategy that are usually employed to play it. I won't be as critical of Yumin right at this moment without knowing it a bit more. What I did note from watching the episode is that the spectators of the match weren't as outraged and they are all Karuta players. They describe her with terms such as "stubborn" or "doesn't give up" or etc. Chihaya gave in after she declared "this has become difficult."
Porky said himself that Yumi had a bad rep for pulling this stunt. And I think it was Yumi who said she stopped because it was un-Queenly. Plus it just holds up the game for everyone else playing which must be frustrating. She's just acting like a child. Even if Chihaya was confident, arguing with a wall would get her nowhere and just aggravate everyone around her... hmmm, surprised she isn't doing it.
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Old 2012-03-07, 04:54   Link #1307
thalmann
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I'm hope that we will never hear a word from Suihoku Karuta Society ever again. I hate that former Queen, i hate that annoying teacher of her
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Old 2012-03-07, 05:13   Link #1308
Aesthetic Shampoo
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Hm. Like mostly everyone else, i dislike the way Yumin plays. She has a playing style that is arguable unfair. Some people said it was persistence, but it seemed like she was, um, breaking other people's karuta spirit, if you will. Like somebody said, it is doubtful that Chihaya didn't know if she was the one who got the card. It was mentioned in one of the earlier episodes, but isn't knowing who got to the card first a mark of one of the better karuta players? When Chihaya did it against Shinobu, it also earned her acknowledgement and some degree of respect from her. It seemed to me Yumin used the other players who wanted the match to go on already to launch passive aggressive attack that made Chihaya give up her card, and possibly planting the seeds of doubt that she ever did get the card in the first place, which would affect her confidence in karuta overall.

That being said, i don't blame Yumin for what she does as much as i blame her coach. Nishida said that she stopped that method of playing because it was unsightly for a queen. Well, that just shows she has pride. Why did she start again? The coach. I'm also inclined to believe she used that playing style more because yes, she wanted to win, but probably more so because she wanted to live up to other people's expectations. And by other people i mean the coach. After all, who else encourages you but your coach when you're still a no name and a noob? That flashback sequence of the coach 'comforting' Yumin after she lost all those matches didn't hit the sympathy mark for me. It seemed to me as if he just wanted her to win so he would have better publicity for him and his society. She said his name on tv didn't she? From what we were shown, he didn't do anything to help her, just patted her on the shoulder and gave her some more weight for the next tournament. Also, he came off a a douche; he was completely inconsiderate to everyone that wasn't one of his players. He isn't half the teacher Harada is; i'm hoping Harada's teacher awesome status will be highlighted even more next week.
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Old 2012-03-07, 05:40   Link #1309
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Hahaha, it is all part of the game people. As a person who has played a lot of club chess tournaments against adults in the past, I can tell you that some ol' people will use every trick on the book that is barely valid by the rules to psyque you out. And you know what. It's all part of the game. So a part of becoming a better player is learning to deal with it.

Chess, checkers, go, karuta is as much of a mental/physical game as it can be a psychological game.
+1
So much rage huh
Anyway , i like Karuta's match , they are really intensive.
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Old 2012-03-07, 06:12   Link #1310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Add to what Proto said, the biggest effect she had on Chihaya was how she was disrupting the flow of Chihaya's game. It was a sound strategy. A lot of sports uses it. For example, in American Footbal, timeouts are taken to ice the kicker. In Basketball, time outs are taken to slow down the opponent who suddenly was making almost all the shots. Pretty much the attempt is to disrupt the flow, to slow down the pace, and in turn make your opponent to lose focus and concentration while you regroup. To overcome such attempts, mental strength is a requirement. As Chihaya often demonstrated through out the series in her loses and in her wins, that she has ways to go before she overcomes her lacking in mental toughness.
Agreed,I don't think her opponent pulled this off often,just a couple times was enough to get to Chihaya and she didn't do it anymore because she didn't need to.
I would think that she can't do it everytime.In football if you keep arguing calls with the ref you're going to end up with a flag thrown your way,if you keep arguing calls in basketball you'll end up with a technical,if you keep arguing balls and strikes in baseball you could get ejected,if you keep arguing calls in soccer you'll get a yellow card...

So there's got to be a limit,and I'm sure Yumin knows it,notice she contested the call on what seemed to her like a crutial card,I'm inclined to believe that she wouldn't have done it if that was not the case.

If Chihaya had just showed some resistance she might have stopped doing it,notably because she'd think she missed her crutial chance and her moral would be back down.


On a completely unrelated note it looks like Kanade might just have found her vocation and become a reader,that seems to suit her quite a bit more.
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Old 2012-03-07, 06:31   Link #1311
Yume Hanabi
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Agree with Sunnythesun, the coach isn't getting any sympathy for me. I really didn't like how he took Nishida away and almost forced him to cheer for Yumin instead of Chihaya. Yes, they're in the same karuta society, but geez, he's also part of the Mizusawa karuta club and has fought team matches with Chiyaha before (not to mention that all his other friends were over there cheering for Chihaya). There was no need to look so angry at him for wanting a friend to win over another one.

And the arguing over cards is a valid strategy, and I think Chihaya got unsettled a little too easily (such a contrast to the way she played in the previous ep!), so I don't really blame Yumin for doing it, but I don't like it much. Even when Tsutomu did it in an earlier episode, I cringed a little and wished he'd just drop it.

Still, though frustrating to watch, it was an interesting episode. Wonder what'll happen to Chihaya though...
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Old 2012-03-07, 07:38   Link #1312
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Yumin's strategy is as valid as the one Komano used in his match against Kana-chan. Call it cheap, unsightly, shameful or whatever, but she was perfectly in her right to argue about these cards. The rules allow it, so she'd be dumb not to do it especially since arguing happens to be her strong point. I don't like it that much either, but I don't think she should belittled because of that.
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Old 2012-03-07, 08:13   Link #1313
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Can't believe Chihaya actually lost that game. Even though Yumi is a good player, but calling on so many cards she 'Believed' that she got there first? Well, not implying anything, but some players may use that to 'cheat' in certain ways.

However much i believe it was cheap of Yumi in her unique way of playing, Chihaya herself shouldn't have gotten distracted herself, and make some stand for herself if she believed she really got the card first. Perhaps she was just a little too inexperienced in the world of sports like Karuta, where rules are bended to the max.

The coach on the other hand, was unbelievable. He lacks the professional spirit, of any game to fully follow the rules. He himself is a coach to the younger generation, so shouldn't he set a good example in following rules? Yes, he does raise a valid point in that it is hot in the room, but it is not like a player has an advantage over another as both sides too feel the heat. It is part of the game.

Just a personal opinion.
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Old 2012-03-07, 09:15   Link #1314
Yume Hanabi
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I think part of the reason he opened the window was to get rid of the steam. But anyway, I'm sure his action was welcomed by all players. The organisators should have scheduled a short break to let some air back in in the first place, imo. Those were not good playing conditions at all.
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Old 2012-03-07, 09:38   Link #1315
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Not to mention that if he didn't opened the windows , Chihaya would have lost too.
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Old 2012-03-07, 09:56   Link #1316
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I've been trying to figure out where the series goes for the final episodes now that Chihaya is out of the queen competition. I just had a thought. Maybe the final episodes will involve our gang rooting for Harada-sensei as he makes his bid to become king? By finally showing us how Harada plays through the kids' eyes, we could see the kids discover tips, tricks, and weak areas to fix in their own play. Maybe the series will end with an Arata / Harada match-up in the final round. In that case, who would Chihaya and Taichi root for? And who would win??
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Old 2012-03-07, 10:04   Link #1317
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I've lost count of how many times I've said, "Wait, that's allowed?" while watching this show. It's like Karuta's designed to encourage these kinds of unfair playing tactics -- other than Taichi switching the cards, we've never seen any bizarre play that wasn't legal under the rules. So Yumin's play was as fair as Desktop-kun knocking half the cards off the field, or Taichi pshyching out Nishida.

That said, Chihaya should've contested Yumin's claims, regardless of whether they're true or not. Also: doesn't Karuta have referees? You'd figure after the first dispute, given Yumin's rep, one of the officials would be there to make the call instead of relying on the players to settle it themselves.
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Old 2012-03-07, 11:01   Link #1318
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Yumin's strategy is as valid as the one Komano used in his match against Kana-chan. Call it cheap, unsightly, shameful or whatever, but she was perfectly in her right to argue about these cards. The rules allow it, so she'd be dumb not to do it especially since arguing happens to be her strong point. I don't like it that much either, but I don't think she should belittled because of that.
Such behavior is not allowed - it is only not prohibited. It's a loophole and taking advantage of it is frowned upon. Just like the US government will go after those who use tax loopholes because even though they are "allowed," doing so pisses off the government and it will eventually come after those who exploit the loopholes.

If karuta is a sport, then there is sportsmanship to consider. Sportsmanship is a set of unspoken rules and decorum. Yeah, so you should be belittled if you play the game without sportsmanship, because sports is more than just winning and losing (even at the competitive level).
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Old 2012-03-07, 11:15   Link #1319
Yume Hanabi
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I've lost count of how many times I've said, "Wait, that's allowed?" while watching this show. It's like Karuta's designed to encourage these kinds of unfair playing tactics
Haha yeah. That's what makes it awesome, though. It looks more laidback, casual than stuff like shogi, and, to me, makes it so much more fun to watch. The players seem more free, and that's pretty cool.
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Old 2012-03-07, 15:06   Link #1320
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
I've been trying to figure out where the series goes for the final episodes now that Chihaya is out of the queen competition. I just had a thought. Maybe the final episodes will involve our gang rooting for Harada-sensei as he makes his bid to become king? By finally showing us how Harada plays through the kids' eyes, we could see the kids discover tips, tricks, and weak areas to fix in their own play. Maybe the series will end with an Arata / Harada match-up in the final round. In that case, who would Chihaya and Taichi root for? And who would win??
I think that would be a fascinating twist ending, but I doubt it's going to happen.

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2012-03-07 at 15:46.
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