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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-08, 23:03   Link #801
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong (though I don't think I am), but all Minato did at that time was seal some of his (and Kushina's) Chakra into Naruto. Far as I know soul-splitting played absolutely no role in it, whether that is theoretically possible or not. I suppose in theory Madara could have done the same thing to Obito, by your theory, but I don't think that would entail putting a piece of his soul into him.
well you're not wrong perhaps, but there is more to it than chakra. chakra can't talk to people like minato and kushina did. my understanding was that it was part of them (whatever that means...) so my point is just that madara would have had to place a similar 'thing' inside obito at birth to be unsealed given a trigger. i didn't mean to get into a 'soul' debate.
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Old 2012-03-08, 23:12   Link #802
Teru987
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but Minato soul was sealed in the jutsu not in naruto that was his chakra. this was from naruto.wiki "Before he died he sealed some of his own chakra into Naruto so that he could someday see him again too, specifically if ever the seal was about to break so that he could restore it."
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Old 2012-03-08, 23:39   Link #803
itachi-san314
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but Minato soul was sealed in the jutsu not in naruto that was his chakra. this was from naruto.wiki "Before he died he sealed some of his own chakra into Naruto so that he could someday see him again too, specifically if ever the seal was about to break so that he could restore it."
it's clearly not just chakra. i'm sure its minato's chakra that was used to make the seal and technique, but it was a very intricate technique that allowed their consciousness to interact with a host body. no chakra i've ever seen can do this aside form the bijou. it's a technique on par with something the RS could do. it's not just a hunk of chakra inside naruto's brain

if the user of a technique of that caliber had malicious intents like madara, then he could not only alter it so that he could control the host body, but also eliminate the time limit minato and kushina had by utilizing the chakra of the host body.

obviously that's all just speculation, my only point is that that type of technique is very similar to something we've already seen from minato who is on a similar, possibly lower level than madara
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Old 2012-03-08, 23:44   Link #804
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's clearly not just chakra. i'm sure its minato's chakra that was used to make the seal and technique, but it was a very intricate technique that allowed their consciousness to interact with a host body. no chakra i've ever seen can do this aside form the bijou. it's a technique on par with something the RS could do. it's not just a hunk of chakra inside naruto's brain

if the user of a technique of that caliber had malicious intents like madara, then he could not only alter it so that he could control the host body, but also eliminate the time limit minato and kushina had by utilizing the chakra of the host body.

obviously that's all just speculation, my only point is that that type of technique is very similar to something we've already seen from minato who is on a similar, possibly lower level than madara
You're right, it isn't a hunk of chakra somehow taking human form in Naruto's brain. It's a hunk of chakra taking human form in Naruto's seal, which was made out of chakra to begin with. Were Minato's chakra behaving the way it did anywhere else I'd be inclined to agree with you, but given that it was inside Naruto's seal (where living people like Sasuke seem to be able to just waltz in anyway), I'm not so sure we should be applying standard rules to the situation.

Anyway, whether it makes sense or not (which I suppose it doesn't really, when one thinks about it), Minato quite clearly said that the only thing he was putting in there was a bit of his and Kushina's chakra. There's no evidence to suggest he put anything else in there (other than, you know, Kurama himself).
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Old 2012-03-08, 23:51   Link #805
itachi-san314
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You're right, it isn't a hunk of chakra somehow taking human form in Naruto's brain. It's a hunk of chakra taking human form in Naruto's seal, which was made out of chakra to begin with. Were Minato's chakra behaving the way it did anywhere else I'd be inclined to agree with you, but given that it was inside Naruto's seal (where living people like Sasuke seem to be able to just waltz in anyway), I'm not so sure we should be applying standard rules to the situation.

Anyway, whether it makes sense or not (which I suppose it doesn't really, when one thinks about it), Minato quite clearly said that the only thing he was putting in there was a bit of his and Kushina's chakra. There's no evidence to suggest he put anything else in there (other than, you know, Kurama himself).
that's all well and good. I stated clearly that you could call it whatever you want. I had no intention of getting into a debate about souls or whatever. my further point was that it was not just chakra and like you are saying yourself, it is chakra plus a seal which is a technique... a very intricate technique that allows consciousnesses to talk to one another in an ethereal space, even long dead ones.

also, my point this whole time is just that madara could have done a similar thing to obito and that minato's sealing technique proves that it is in the realm of possibilities in the narutoverse
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Old 2012-03-08, 23:52   Link #806
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I get what you mean and it could be possible since Madara was one of the greatest but you also have to remember that Minato learned everything from Kusina who is an uzumaki. They were renown worldwide for their fuinjutsu. so its possible that her knowledge plus his genius he could have easily made his chakra manifest into a physical from in naruto's mind.

thats just what I think could have happened.
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Old 2012-03-09, 00:53   Link #807
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's clearly not just chakra.
It's just chakra. If you are having problems understanding the technique, think of it as being similar to a/any type of Bushin (which is a chakra construct, but it has no soul).

That's not to say that a soul cannot be split (in the Narutoverse). Orochimaru and the Jyuubi are proof of this.

This is not to say that Madara did anything you are assigning to him. Obito seems like a stretch of the imagination considering that Madara (or Zetsu) could have just as easily created a new body (similar to how all the new Zetsus have been made) and inserted some of his soul (or just memories or commands) into it. In fact, this would account for Tobi identifying himself/itself as "No One" (or was it "No Name"?) far better than if it were Obito's body but with Madara's memories (or whatever theory connects Madara to Obito).
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Old 2012-03-09, 01:26   Link #808
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Something occurs to me after watching the anime today:
1. we learn that "Tobi" has both senju chakra and the ocular chakra
2. his face is awfully dark; most Uchiha I know are pale

After watching the anime, I really don't think that "Tobi" is really Madara. IDK...
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Old 2012-03-09, 03:07   Link #809
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Madara himself is pretty damn dark anyway.

Also, didn't he say he 'took' those senju cells?

If Orochimaru was able to take Senju cells to create Yamato, Tobi could take some for Izanagi as well.
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Old 2012-03-09, 05:52   Link #810
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Chakra vs soul is really a tangent discussion and the distinction isn't so significant here. The point was that Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of themselves that contained memories. That's sufficient to make the comparison with what Madara might have done with Obito.
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Old 2012-03-09, 07:35   Link #811
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Chakra vs soul is really a tangent discussion and the distinction isn't so significant here. The point was that Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of themselves that contained memories. That's sufficient to make the comparison with what Madara might have done with Obito.
Similar in theory to what you're suggesting, perhaps, but I sincerely doubt that the manifestations (or whatever you want to call them) of Minato/Kushina inside Naruto could have taken control of him the way you're suggesting Madara would have done to Obito.
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Old 2012-03-09, 10:10   Link #812
itachi-san314
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It's just chakra. If you are having problems understanding the technique, think of it as being similar to a/any type of Bushin (which is a chakra construct, but it has no soul).
it's not just chakra, it's a sealing technique as well. a bunshin isn't just chakra, it's a technique. think of the times people have absorbed chakra. the chakra never talked to them or their memories weren't passed on or anything like that. minato set things up so that him and kushina could speak with naruto and help him when he needed them most. chakra injection isn't enough to do something like that. it requires the seal as well. plus its all a retcon to the seal technique which is why it doesnt make total sense


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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Chakra vs soul is really a tangent discussion and the distinction isn't so significant here. The point was that Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of themselves that contained memories. That's sufficient to make the comparison with what Madara might have done with Obito.
lol.. thank you for hopefully ending the debate on this

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Similar in theory to what you're suggesting, perhaps, but I sincerely doubt that the manifestations (or whatever you want to call them) of Minato/Kushina inside Naruto could have taken control of him the way you're suggesting Madara would have done to Obito.
right because they had time limits. think if they pulled a tobi and mindraped naruto into doing what they wanted. also nobody is saying the technique is exactly the same, just that it's similar
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Old 2012-03-09, 10:40   Link #813
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This is not to say that Madara did anything you are assigning to him. Obito seems like a stretch of the imagination considering that Madara (or Zetsu) could have just as easily created a new body (similar to how all the new Zetsus have been made) and inserted some of his soul (or just memories or commands) into it. In fact, this would account for Tobi identifying himself/itself as "No One" (or was it "No Name"?) far better than if it were Obito's body but with Madara's memories (or whatever theory connects Madara to Obito).
Not really. The idea doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Let's suppose Madara created a new body for himself out of Zetsu material. As I have pointed out in the past, this creates several dilemmas

1. What are the lines on the right side of his face? They could be scars or wrinkles. But it doesn't make much sense why he would create a brand new body with either of those.

2. If Madara transferred his memories into a Zetsu clone body, thus making Tobi, then why not give the Rinnegan to Tobi instead of Nagato? It would make more sense, since Nagato was only a boy at the time.

3. Because Tobi performed Izanagi, a part of him needs to be Uchiha. Danzou was able to perform Izanagi because he incorporated Shisui's arm and Hashirama's face into his body. Those two elements plus the sacrifice of a Sharingan are what enabled Danzou to perform the technique. Tobi has Senju DNA (due to the Zetsu material in his body). But he must also have Uchiha DNA in his body. This rules out the idea that Tobi is simply a Zetsu body.

4. There are currently 3 unexplained Sharingan Techs: Tobi's phasing power, Tobi's Time/Space Warp, and Kakashi's Kamui. Since Kamui and Tobi's Warp power resemble each other, the simplest solution would be to say that these two similar mystery powers have the same origin. A more complicated solution would be to say that they are completely unrelated, because then you must come up with two separate origins instead of one.

Due to these problems, Zetsu clone Theory seems highly unlikely. Honestly, reasons 2 and 3 are enough to rule it out altogether. Obito Theory, on the other hand, doesn't have these problems.
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Old 2012-03-09, 13:20   Link #814
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
1. What are the lines on the right side of his face? They could be scars or wrinkles. But it doesn't make much sense why he would create a brand new body with either of those.

2. If Madara transferred his memories into a Zetsu clone body, thus making Tobi, then why not give the Rinnegan to Tobi instead of Nagato? It would make more sense, since Nagato was only a boy at the time.

3. Because Tobi performed Izanagi, a part of him needs to be Uchiha. Danzou was able to perform Izanagi because he incorporated Shisui's arm and Hashirama's face into his body. Those two elements plus the sacrifice of a Sharingan are what enabled Danzou to perform the technique. Tobi has Senju DNA (due to the Zetsu material in his body). But he must also have Uchiha DNA in his body. This rules out the idea that Tobi is simply a Zetsu body.

4. There are currently 3 unexplained Sharingan Techs: Tobi's phasing power, Tobi's Time/Space Warp, and Kakashi's Kamui. Since Kamui and Tobi's Warp power resemble each other, the simplest solution would be to say that these two similar mystery powers have the same origin. A more complicated solution would be to say that they are completely unrelated, because then you must come up with two separate origins instead of one.

Due to these problems, Zetsu clone Theory seems highly unlikely. Honestly, reasons 2 and 3 are enough to rule it out altogether. Obito Theory, on the other hand, doesn't have these problems.
1. Why would he make a younger looking body, if his mask was ever to be destroyed an older face would hold more water to him being Madara.

2.We dont know if tobi was made before Madara died. he could have gave nagato his eyes with a seal or trigger so that he would make zetsu at a certian point. just my thoughts on that might not be true.

3. All you need is DNA from both you dont need to be one. Kakashi could use Izanagi if he got Senju DNA.(theoretically of course)

4. there techs do resemble each other but Kakashi can only transport what his eye is looking at. Tobi can create a pocket dimension to keep things in as while as moving location. Tobi's Space–Time Migration is more like Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique. He could have studied it and further progressed it. Tobi's phasing power is not another technique it the space time migration but used on himself. He is intangible but Konan said he cant be that way for long and he cant transport away while using it. So that points to it being the same technique just having to different uses.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:01   Link #815
itachi-san314
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1. Why would he make a younger looking body, if his mask was ever to be destroyed an older face would hold more water to him being Madara.
if it's a zetsu clone then why make anything other than what madara looked like at that time? tsunade has younger features but everyone knows its tsunade. everyone would believe tobi was madara if he looked young just based on his knowledge and powers. he wouldn't need to add wrinkles to convince anyone

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2.We dont know if tobi was made before Madara died. he could have gave nagato his eyes with a seal or trigger so that he would make zetsu at a certian point. just my thoughts on that might not be true.
zetsu is made from hashirama's dna which madara collected after their VotE fight. he had it well before he died. it's true that we dont know exactly when zetsu was created, but he wouldnt have needed nagato to do it. nagato and konan were in the dark about a lot of tobi and madara's plan when it related to the senju stuff anyway.

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3. All you need is DNA from both you dont need to be one. Kakashi could use Izanagi if he got Senju DNA.(theoretically of course)
right and we're saying that a zetsu clone isn't enough since it's only senju dna. tobi is obviously not all uchiha either. having the last remnants of obito's body would account for his uchiha portion

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4. there techs do resemble each other but Kakashi can only transport what his eye is looking at. Tobi can create a pocket dimension to keep things in as while as moving location.
kakashi creates another dimension as well, he just isn't as adept at using it as tobi is.

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Tobi's Space–Time Migration is more like Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique. He could have studied it and further progressed it.
they're not similar. minato's tech is a summoning jutsu. tobi's is like a dimensional vortex

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Tobi's phasing power is not another technique it the space time migration but used on himself. He is intangible but Konan said he cant be that way for long and he cant transport away while using it. So that points to it being the same technique just having to different uses.
i dont think it's the same tech as his 'kamui' technique. he doesn't use another dimension, he makes himself intangible while still being visible. if he was transporting parts of himself into another dimension while phasing through something, then why does he take so long to suck himself into another dimension with that spiral? it should be instantaneous then. could just be the author's discretion. either way, it's a slightly different tech, but related for sure
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:03   Link #816
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1. Why would he make a younger looking body, if his mask was ever to be destroyed an older face would hold more water to him being Madara.
So, you're saying he would choose an old face so that he could convince people that he's Madara. But he would still wear a mask anyway? And you don't think people would tend to recognize him better as younger Madara (similar to the giant statue of him at the Valley of the End)? This isn't a convincing counterargument.

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2.We dont know if tobi was made before Madara died. he could have gave nagato his eyes with a seal or trigger so that he would make zetsu at a certian point. just my thoughts on that might not be true.
Not sure I understand what you mean here.

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3. All you need is DNA from both you dont need to be one. Kakashi could use Izanagi if he got Senju DNA.(theoretically of course)
He would need Uchiha genes as well. Remember Danzo transplanted Shisui's arm, which is why Ao with his Byakugan was able to recognize Shisui's chakra lines in Danzo.

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Tobi's phasing power is not another technique it the space time migration but used on himself. He is intangible but Konan said he cant be that way for long and he cant transport away while using it. So that points to it being the same technique just having to different uses.
It points to it being a separate technique. One allows Tobi to phase through solid objects, while the other transports Tobi and others to a different dimension. Konan pointed out the weakness in each technique. For the phasing power, Tobi can only sustain it for 5 minutes. For the warping power, Tobi must become solid. So, he can't use both powers simultaneously.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:17   Link #817
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it's not just chakra, it's a sealing technique as well. a bunshin isn't just chakra, it's a technique. think of the times people have absorbed chakra. the chakra never talked to them or their memories weren't passed on or anything like that. minato set things up so that him and kushina could speak with naruto and help him when he needed them most. chakra injection isn't enough to do something like that. it requires the seal as well. plus its all a retcon to the seal technique which is why it doesnt make total sense

right because they had time limits. think if they pulled a tobi and mindraped naruto into doing what they wanted. also nobody is saying the technique is exactly the same, just that it's similar
Sealing technique or no, it's still just chakra; it behaved differently, and it doesn't really make sense, but it's still just chakra. Minato himself said so quite clearly. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

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right and we're saying that a zetsu clone isn't enough since it's only senju dna. tobi is obviously not all uchiha either. having the last remnants of obito's body would account for his uchiha portion
Hiking Bear was insinuating that, because both Senju and Uchiha DNA are required, it's more likely that Tobi is an Uchiha. That's not so; it's just as likely that he's an Uchiha with Senju DNA as it is that he's a Zetsu clone with Uchiha DNA.

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they're not similar. minato's tech is a summoning jutsu. tobi's is like a dimensional vortex
No, what the Hiraishin does is create a pocket dimension of sorts that (to outside observers, if not to Minato himself) instantly warps the user to the seal they've placed. At least I think so; either way, it's definitely defined as a Space-Time technique.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:22   Link #818
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Sealing technique or no, it's still just chakra; it behaved differently, and it doesn't really make sense, but it's still just chakra. Minato himself said so quite clearly. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
so are you implying that when kisame pulls in people's chakra he can talk to their conscious mind's with his own?


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Hiking Bear was insinuating that, because both Senju and Uchiha DNA are required, it's more likely that Tobi is an Uchiha. That's not so; it's just as likely that he's an Uchiha with Senju DNA as it is that he's a Zetsu clone with Uchiha DNA.
true except there are no other hints relating to him being a senju, whereas there are a ton of hints for him having obito's body. if he was a senju then why would he hate them so much? I don't see how that makes any sense

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No, what the Hiraishin does is create a pocket dimension of sorts that (to outside observers, if not to Minato himself) instantly warps the user to the seal they've placed. At least I think so; either way, it's definitely defined as a Space-Time technique.
so is a summoning technique right? it instantly warps people to another place via space-time
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:40   Link #819
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so are you implying that when kisame pulls in people's chakra he can talk to their conscious mind's with his own?
I implied nothing of the sort. All I said was that, whether it makes sense or not, Minato himself confirmed that it was just chakra; it behaved differently than chakra ordinarily does, probably due to some function in the seal, though I guess only Kishi really knows. But saying it was anything else is nothing more than unconfirmed speculation.

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true except there are no other hints relating to him being a senju, whereas there are a ton of hints for him having obito's body. if he was a senju then why would he hate them so much? I don't see how that makes any sense
I agree. While I couldn't be more skeptical about the Madara possession idea, the fact that Izuna has been ruled out does mean Obito seems most likely to me too. Don't really like it (unless it's done really well), but I do agree. All I was saying though was that, in theory, it could just as easily be a Zetsu clone with Uchiha DNA, and that needing both doesn't by default make Obito more likely.

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so is a summoning technique right? it instantly warps people to another place via space-time
I was actually misremembering how summoning techniques work; my bad on that. Now that I remember that, you're right that the Hiraishin functions more like a summoning technique than either Kamui or the Space-Time Migration.
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Old 2012-03-09, 15:45   Link #820
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I implied nothing of the sort. All I said was that, whether it makes sense or not, Minato himself confirmed that it was just chakra; it behaved differently than chakra ordinarily does, probably due to some function in the seal, though I guess only Kishi really knows. But saying it was anything else is nothing more than unconfirmed speculation.
well, kisame takes chakra from others and integrates it into his body and this doesnt happen which is my point. it's also unconfirmed speculation to assume it is just chakra since chakra has never behaved that way in any other instance in the manga aside from the bijou. minato didn't exactly have time to explain in detail what he was doing. it clearly had something to do with the seal and the trigger he added. it isn't just chakra that is allowing his conscious mind to interact with naruto's. it's not even just memories since they are clearly having an unpredictable conversation. I guess this is one of those agree to disagree things since you are right in the fact that minato said he was inserting his chakra into the seal. my point is that there is a technique to it and not just chakra. kisame's absorption technique is just chakra


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I agree. While I couldn't be more skeptical about the Madara possession idea, the fact that Izuna has been ruled out does mean Obito seems most likely to me too. Don't really like it (unless it's done really well), but I do agree. All I was saying though was that, in theory, it could just as easily be a Zetsu clone with Uchiha DNA, and that needing both doesn't by default make Obito more likely.
right, but like hiking bear said it's all part of a bigger puzzle which still doesnt add up to a complete fact of course, but its a clearer puzzle than any other character so far. I actually like it. I think it will bring kakashi back to being a main character. I'm not really a fan of how he has been mostly ignored the past couple years. he used to be a main character right under naruto and sasuke and I prefer it that way. I could see alot happening with kakashi if tobi is obito which i am all for

One thing that bothers me is the color of tobi's skin in the latest episodes with konan. it could just be darker from the blast he got hit with I suppose. even though he was in shadows when he revealed his eye to sasuke, his skin did not look that dark. still though, obito was much lighter, so it may be an issue. It's not like he gets much sun lol. I would agree that it looks more like senju skin, but tsunade is pretty pale. It's more hashirama's coloring but both madara and danzo had his face on them and it was pale... so maybe the coloring is of no consequence since it's kind of variable.
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