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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 12 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 9 22.50%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 30.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 7.50%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 5.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 5.00%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-04, 01:12   Link #21
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Well their job IS to protect the balance so I'm not sure how comparing them to Hilter is a good comparison.

Most if not all of the Flame Hazes became that because they were wronged by the Denizens one way or the other. South Valley must've really been beaten badly a long time ago to have that much hatred.

I don't see anything wrong with them changing the law to have it so that the Denizens cannot eat humans....I'm more suprised that Yuji didn't even put that in in the first place to begin with which I suppose lends to Johan's lecture about him being so uptight about it.

And they want to instill as much fear and terror into the Denizens so that their descendants will not forget the crimes and punishments that awaits them if they ever dared set foot on Earth again.

Yuji created Xanadu, the Flame Hazes simply continued in their duties by making sure that down the road the new world wouldn't affect the old worlds or at least minimize the risks.
It's more like there being limitless Existence means eating humans becomes redundant.

The new law just enforces not doing something that is now effectively a pointless chore with no returns whatsoever
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Old 2012-03-04, 02:04   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's more like there being limitless Existence means eating humans becomes redundant.

The new law just enforces not doing something that is now effectively a pointless chore with no returns whatsoever
I'll be frank with you. I never did had any sympathy for the Denizens. This whole thing started because the Denizens found out they could achieve miracles by consuming innocent humans so I find it hard to sympathize with them in the first place. I don't see how you can justify a demon eating a child simply so it could fulfill it's greatest desires. Sure they need to consume PoE to survive on Earth but that's still no excuse to kill a child or anyone for that matter.

The fact that the Flame Hazes are instilling fear and having the survivors pass it on goes to show that even with Xanadu Denizens could potentially still travel to Earth and from there consume humans. They are literally turning Earth into a mythical land filled with demons to scare them off. Since this is down the road and not immediate I'm guessing the Flame Hazes will pass into legend as they wouldn't be needed anymore so they are ensuring Earth's protection and handing it off to the survivors to carry it on.

With the law prohibiting consumption of humans they are also putting in a guarantee that the Denizens will not go back to their old ways of consuming humans as they wouldn't be there to keep them in check either. Yes there's a limitless supply (however that is) but sometimes things or people kill/eat simply for fun or just for whatever reasons. That's why paradises do not exist because people find them to be boring.
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Old 2012-03-04, 03:05   Link #23
Cosmic Eagle
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I'll be frank with you. I never did had any sympathy for the Denizens. This whole thing started because the Denizens found out they could achieve miracles by consuming innocent humans so I find it hard to sympathize with them in the first place. I don't see how you can justify a demon eating a child simply so it could fulfill it's greatest desires. Sure they need to consume PoE to survive on Earth but that's still no excuse to kill a child or anyone for that matter.
Does justification matter?

They eat to maintain their form just like how every living thing eats to survive.

If you are the one being eaten and want to do something about it then you just attempt to fight back and kill whatever that tries to kill you.

There's no right or wrong, it's just something that is.


The senior Flame Hazes though, they've long been removed from this cycle and are just fighting out of pure bloodlust. Any Tomogara that crosses their path, if he/she holds nothing of usefulness to the Flame Haze, is exterminated on sight.

It's not out of self-defence or anything like that. It's cruelty that serves no purpose.

Those that hold true dedication to preserving the balance are few and far between.

Quote:
The fact that the Flame Hazes are instilling fear and having the survivors pass it on goes to show that even with Xanadu Denizens could potentially still travel to Earth and from there consume humans. They are literally turning Earth into a mythical land filled with demons to scare them off. Since this is down the road and not immediate I'm guessing the Flame Hazes will pass into legend as they wouldn't be needed anymore so they are ensuring Earth's protection and handing it off to the survivors to carry it on.

With the law prohibiting consumption of humans they are also putting in a guarantee that the Denizens will not go back to their old ways of consuming humans as they wouldn't be there to keep them in check either. Yes there's a limitless supply (however that is) but sometimes things or people kill/eat simply for fun or just for whatever reasons. That's why paradises do not exist because people find them to be boring.
Xanadu is a one way trip for anyone going there.

Boring? You are talking about Existence power. Enough of which allows warping of reality to achieve nearly whatever you can want. How does mere killing compare to that? The odd psychopath may exist here and then but the majority would be far too busy with that new power to care

You seem to think Tomogara feed out of cruelty or malice. They're not Flame Hazes. What drives them at the core is far different. Tomogara are a species. They are not something that is born out of circumstances unlike Flame Hazes. Hell, one of the most malicious and evil Tomogara you can ever find is Pheles and look how she wound up....

Certain Tomogara, a very major character in fact, have good reason to hate humans and do generally view humanity as just fuel to be expended. There's extenuating circumstances in those cases even then so passing condemnation like that is wrong at best. Of course, I don't think it makes any difference in your eyes and it doesn't affect the topic at hand anyway since they're mostly dead.

There's plenty of effed up people in the world and our race in general isn't very pleasant. Then all humans are psychopaths incapable of anything good I presume?

And yes, the supply is limitless. How? Well the Snake is a God-rank being for a reason.
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Old 2012-03-04, 13:27   Link #24
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A good 9/10

Pros: Awesome fighting & decent explaining
Cons: Got confused with the explanations LOL
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Old 2012-03-04, 17:03   Link #25
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Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire View Post
Your earlier guess is indeed proven correct in this episode. Well done!

At that point, he had become a mystes, since he is a torch with a hougu, which is Reiji Maigo. I cannot understand why he was slowing drying within the hougu. He could just take a portion of power of existence, generated from Reiji Maigo, to cure his injury. After all, he is the creator of Reiji Maigo.
Johan would have taken the Reiji Maigo if it would have been that easy. He would have been able to live together with Pheles for eternity that way. But he didn't take the Reiji Maigo, so there must be a good reason why the Reiji Maigo can't save his existence.

The Reiji Maigo only restores PoE at midnight. Maybe Johan's 'body' was broken because of Sabrac's assault and because of that his 'body' is having trouble regulating the PoE. Maybe this has been getting harder for him as time went by and he suspects that he won't be able to regulate the PoE at all anymore soon. That would result in him disappearing. I guess that this would explain why even infinite PoE (Reiji Maigo) won't save him.

Since he's about to disappear, he's betting everything on a plan using Yuji's/SnH's creation of Xanadu.
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Old 2012-03-05, 15:12   Link #26
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8/10

Despite what many people think of this episode and actually enjoyed it!

I know everyone is free to have his/her tastes, but I really think many SnS fans have been spoiled by the novels and are expecting certain events in the anime, like fight scenes and action. I like them too, but we needed a clear explanation on several issues: and we've got them in this episode. Furthermore, as much as I like Shana x Yuji pairing, we have a lot of other important characters who need attention. Also we are reaching the end *sobs* and a lot of action - after all it's the story's climax. We need some "calm" moments before that: we are almost at midnight.

I was surprised by Sale's background. He is a mysterious Flame Haze, and little is known about him, but I'm quite interested in his story. Loved Kazumi and Johan's talk, I adore him and Pheles! And what a cliffhanger...
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Old 2012-03-05, 18:35   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's more like there being limitless Existence means eating humans becomes redundant.

The new law just enforces not doing something that is now effectively a pointless chore with no returns whatsoever
Whether or not something is "redundant", as long as the possibility and the methods exists, someone at some point will try it. Having limiteless PoE wont stop someone crazy (Dantalion crazy tier) from experimenting with things in the future. Even if it takes thousands upon thousands of years to cause any sort of significant damage, there is nothing wrong with having extra insurance.
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Old 2012-03-05, 21:54   Link #28
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A possible unspoken reason for this slaughtering of denizens - To keep some of the more powerful denizens preoccupied and out of Shana's way in case Aizen!Yuji doesn't take kindly to how she's changed his new world for denizens (and hence the two come to blows once again).

Basically, without those more powerful denizens preoccupied, they could conceivably rush to Snake of the Festival's aid if he continues fighting with Shana, hence potentially overwhelming Shana.


I'm not going to cry too many tears over beings who feed on sentient lifeforms being taken out like this. Granted that there's definitely a certain blood-lust and cruelty to it that I'm not exactly going to cheer, either, but if I was a human on Shana's world, I think I'd sleep much more comfortably at night knowing that the Flame Hazes are going to take every last measure possible to ensure that my fellow humans and I don't get ate by denizens (even if their reasons are more about "balance" than any compassion for humans specifically).


Now, as for my take on Episode 21 overall. That was an awesome cliffhanger, but it's too bad that the next episode preview kind of ruins it.

Spoiler for In case you wisely skipped the preview, lol. ;):


The conflicts in this episode were pretty fun to watch, but I have to admit that I also would have liked to have seen more of Yuji and Shana. Ultimately, they're the characters I care the most about, whereas a lot of the combatants we're seeing now are new characters brought in just this season, and a lot of them have only been barely fleshed out. Dantalion's "son" and Mrs. Glorious Green Phoenix Rider are quite cool to watch, but I haven't really been given a lot of reason to seriously care about them.

The Johann/Pheles/Kazumi scene was great, though. I really enjoyed that.

So I'll give a 8/10 for this episode. Hope we see much more of Yuji and Shana next episode though.
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Old 2012-03-05, 22:11   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Spoiler for In case you wisely skipped the preview, lol. ;):
Too bad.....?
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Old 2012-03-05, 22:13   Link #30
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Too bad.....?
... I can now see how that could be taken the wrong way, lol.

So let me clarify.

Spoiler for Next Expisode Preview:
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Old 2012-03-06, 01:49   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Does justification matter?

They eat to maintain their form just like how every living thing eats to survive.

If you are the one being eaten and want to do something about it then you just attempt to fight back and kill whatever that tries to kill you.

There's no right or wrong, it's just something that is.
Ok you can throw your kids to them and watch as their eaten existences continue to damage the world and then say with a straight face that they have a right to it despite the fact that they do not belong on Earth. There's a difference here. These Denizens came over and realized that by eating humans they could achieve miracles. The more humans consumed the more powerful they get but the more damage is made to the balance of the world.

They came to Earth because of greed and taste. It's not about survival. Very few Denizens have the discipline to restrict their diet while the majority take what they can. If that wasn't the case then the Flame Hazes would've never have been needed in the first place.

When a lion eats a gazelle, it's not contributing to the destruction of the world. When a human eats a hamburger, eventually the carbon and energy ingested will return to the planet.

Quote:
The senior Flame Hazes though, they've long been removed from this cycle and are just fighting out of pure bloodlust. Any Tomogara that crosses their path, if he/she holds nothing of usefulness to the Flame Haze, is exterminated on sight.

It's not out of self-defence or anything like that. It's cruelty that serves no purpose.
Oh that's complete bull and you know it. When Yuji broke the Flame Haze army with his announcement some of you guys were justifying saying that the Denizens were right in slaughtering over 80% of the Flame Hazes that were running like chickens without heads along with being in full retreat. I don't recall you or any of the others making this sort of statement that you are now.

Killing fleeing people with broken morale is NOT self-defence.

In this case the Denizens are still on their feet fighting and their morale isn't broken. There's a difference there.

Quote:
Xanadu is a one way trip for anyone going there.

Boring? You are talking about Existence power. Enough of which allows warping of reality to achieve nearly whatever you can want. How does mere killing compare to that? The odd psychopath may exist here and then but the majority would be far too busy with that new power to care
Then why the taboo to set up Earth as some land of hellish demons if the Flame Hazes were so sure of that? Or is that something from the novel that failed to show up in the series? Even the Denizens admitted the logic to the Flame Hazes' plan.

Quote:
You seem to think Tomogara feed out of cruelty or malice. They're not Flame Hazes. What drives them at the core is far different. Tomogara are a species. They are not something that is born out of circumstances unlike Flame Hazes. Hell, one of the most malicious and evil Tomogara you can ever find is Pheles and look how she wound up....
You are fully aware that this whole thing started because some Tomogaras came to Earth and realized that by eating humans they could achieve miracles right? If that's not greed I don't know what it is. Justify all you want but this whole thing started because of greed and gluttoney.

Quote:
Certain Tomogara, a very major character in fact, have good reason to hate humans and do generally view humanity as just fuel to be expended. There's extenuating circumstances in those cases even then so passing condemnation like that is wrong at best. Of course, I don't think it makes any difference in your eyes and it doesn't affect the topic at hand anyway since they're mostly dead.
I hope to god that you aren't a judge. You'd be letting tons of murderers who see people as playthings out simply because passing condemnation is wrong because of their thinking.

Some people just do things simply because they can.

Quote:
There's plenty of effed up people in the world and our race in general isn't very pleasant. Then all humans are psychopaths incapable of anything good I presume?
Except I never said any of that. I don't know why you keep bringing up Pheles and the Corpse eater when I acknowledged already that there are special circumstances. In fact they worked with the Flame Hazes and one was even protected because he did nothing wrong.

I specify then as Denizens because unless there's a specific term for the ones that actually eat humans I'm not aware of it. I do know as the show has shown that they form the majority which the Flame Hazes target.

It was already made very well clear in S1 and S2 that not all Flame Hazes were angels. As Shana stated their job is to maintain the balance. This brutality and efficiency is expected of them otherwise they never would've been this competent in maintaing the balance.

Hell from what I read the attacks of the 4 Gods works in that for every Denizen killed it stabilises their PoE to avoid upsetting the balance.

Quote:
And yes, the supply is limitless. How? Well the Snake is a God-rank being for a reason.
Then blame the novels and plot for poor story-tellling as the Flame Hazes specifically were concerned about the Denizens going out of control in the new world. That's what they say and I'll take their word for it as even the Denizens acknowledged the reasoning for their plan.

That and no one in the show has stated against it either.
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Old 2012-03-06, 02:24   Link #32
Cosmic Eagle
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Ok you can throw your kids to them and watch as their eaten existences continue to damage the world and then say with a straight face that they have a right to it despite the fact that they do not belong on Earth. There's a difference here. These Denizens came over and realized that by eating humans they could achieve miracles. The more humans consumed the more powerful they get but the more damage is made to the balance of the world.

They came to Earth because of greed and taste. It's not about survival. Very few Denizens have the discipline to restrict their diet while the majority take what they can. If that wasn't the case then the Flame Hazes would've never have been needed in the first place.

When a lion eats a gazelle, it's not contributing to the destruction of the world. When a human eats a hamburger, eventually the carbon and energy ingested will return to the planet.
Did I say they have a right to it? I said it was a matter of survival since they are alien to this world. To exist here they need to feed.

Whether they destabilize the world or not is beyond the point. If you are trying to sustain your self you wouldn't care.

Which again brings me back to where did I say they were in the right?

It's just a fact of how their setting works. Which is why the whole point now is changing the way the setting works

Quote:
Oh that's complete bull and you know it. When Yuji broke the Flame Haze army with his announcement some of you guys were justifying saying that the Denizens were right in slaughtering over 80% of the Flame Hazes that were running like chickens without heads along with being in full retreat. I don't recall you or any of the others making this sort of statement that you are now.

Killing fleeing people with broken morale is NOT self-defence.

In this case the Denizens are still on their feet fighting and their morale isn't broken. There's a difference there.
And I'm even referring to the current battles or the current war in general?

You have no idea what the hell I'm talking about and you say "I know it?"

It should be damned obvious an all out war situation like what's happening now is completely different from usual times.

Which is incidentially what I refer to. Any Tomogara that crosses path with a Flame Haze is put down on the spot. Outside of an all out war. Whether the Tomogara has any affiliation with a hostile faction or not.

Since you are using judicial terms here, this is not a trial or anything resembling a court even. This is running around carrying out summary executions.

Quote:
Then why the taboo to set up Earth as some land of hellish demons if the Flame Hazes were so sure of that? Or is that something from the novel that failed to show up in the series? Even the Denizens admitted the logic to the Flame Hazes' plan.
Insurance I suppose. The plan is to cull enough of the Tomogara such that fear is beaten into them and their numbers are thinned down to manageable levels. To kill out as much of the memory or concept of eating of humans in other words.

Quote:
I hope to god that you aren't a judge. You'd be letting tons of murderers who see people as playthings out simply because passing condemnation is wrong because of their thinking.

Some people just do things simply because they can.
And I said certain Tomogara. Of which whose motives and backstories are fully described and such.

Obviously those are not "tons of murderers"

You know what is the concept of dealing with each case individually?

Generalizing an entire group like that when you yourself said "some people?" Is that not anger directed at a group yet the ones on the receiving end are individuals whom you know nothing about?

I hope you are not a judge because then plenty of people who should get life imprisonment or long jail terms at most would be put to death if you were in charge.



Quote:
Except I never said any of that. I don't know why you keep bringing up Pheles and the Corpse eater when I acknowledged already that there are special circumstances.

I specify then as Denizens because unless there's a specific term for the ones that actually eat humans I'm not aware of it. I do know as the show has shown that they form the majority which the Flame Hazes target.

It was already made very well clear in S1 and S2 that not all Flame Hazes were angels. As Shana stated their job is to maintain the balance. This brutality and efficiency is expected of them otherwise they never would've been this competent in maintaing the balance.

Hell from what I read the attacks of the 4 Gods works in that for every Denizen killed it stabilises their PoE to avoid upsetting the balance.
I mention Pheles because she's originally as evil as you can get....one of those who takes pleasure in eating her victims. The kind you refer to.

The Corpse Eater is an N/A case. So I never mentioned him at all.

Flame Haze target all Tomogara that appear in this world.

There's no umbrella term because you need fuel to exist here. Minor characters have to eat. Even Lords and named characters too.

Merihim, when he swore never to eat humans again, he eventually burned himself out training Shana if you would recall. And he's one of the most powerful Tomogara around. He was near death ever since he stopped feeding as he was literally running on nothing and had to conserve as much energy as possible.

Quote:
You are fully aware that this whole thing started because some Tomogaras came to Earth and realized that by eating humans they could achieve miracles right? If that's not greed I don't know what it is. Justify all you want but this whole thing started because of greed and gluttoney.
And in Guze, unless you are a Lord at least you don't even have a stable physical form. Only Gods seem to fare fine in there.
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Old 2012-03-06, 11:56   Link #33
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They came to Earth because of greed and taste. It's not about survival. Very few Denizens have the discipline to restrict their diet while the majority take what they can. If that wasn't the case then the Flame Hazes would've never have been needed in the first place.
Apparently Guze is a horrible, horrible, horrible place to be, from what I remember.
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Old 2012-03-08, 22:43   Link #34
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Ah, thank God for that preview. I was in absolute despair through the ending. Yoshida lives another day~
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Old 2012-03-09, 03:51   Link #35
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I didn't really expect the Flame Haze to simply alter Xanadu instead of preventing its very creation. Does deal with some of the criticism that all they could offer was the status quo. They'll let the Tomogara head off, but just after a major beating and setting up some preventative measures. Helps take care of their worries about a future apocalypse. Also takes care of the morally questionable idea of sacrificing people in a new world so this one would be safe. Make eating people seem like an absolutely terrible idea and just make the Earth a damn scary place to go to .

People can say it wasn't necessary and yet you have people like that crazy professor upset about this change. You think someone like that would give up experimenting with lives like that? Considering most of the Tomogara there have eaten people its a good idea to set up some safety measures. SnH can call this Yuji's plan and yet something like that was left out?

More curious about what Johan and Pheles are going to do. Glad as well that Pheles feeling terrible about rejecting Carmel was brought up. Clearly she had a reason, but no surprise both of them were hurt.
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Ah, thank God for that preview. I was in absolute despair through the ending. Yoshida lives another day~
I don't think you need a preview for that. Khamsin was there expressly to protect Kazumi after all. While I'm sure they'd like to give people a few scares, don't think they will actually kill Kazumi now. Had a perfectly good chance to do so with the hougu and let that go.
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Old 2012-03-10, 17:58   Link #36
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Either in the fourteenth or the fifteenth episode, Centerhill made clear that the Four of Gods of the Motherland wouldn't be able to monitor and enforce the rules if Xanadu was created at the other side of the rift.

So, Shana's declaration revealed in this episode was setting up the "One Law" for Xanadu that no matter if a legion of Tomogara departed from Earth to Xanadu, they wouldn't be allowed to eat humans ever.
Now, in order for the FH to make clear they mean overkill business to the Tomogara, they're waging a magnocidal campaign of Tomogara to dissaude any survivors establishing in Xanadu afterwards not too ever consume human POE.

To make their message more smoothly on the Tomogara they're also targeting the high-ranking Tomogara to deliver them the message, because those Tomogara command high respect and prestige amongst their peers, and they'll be acting as Elders to spread the rumors about the carnage and untimely deaths their cohorts met at the day of Xanadu's birth for having tasted the existence of humans.
This word would spread eventually to newly-born Tomogara leaving for Xanadu, creating a universal taboo sustained in Xanadu about the newborn giving seconds thoughts about ever trying to eat humans.

This law and the countermeasures are the leverage that the Four Gods agree to provide their assistance to Shana and the other FH, because whatever extermination of Tomogara are doing has a meaning, and said meaning will cause ripples that will shape the new world at becoming a world with a certain degree of order and conditioning.
This conditioning would cause Xanadu to stabilize and to follow the status quo of the Balance of Existence, preventing the dreaded Apocalypse of all the Worlds at the expense that Xanadu would no longer be the paradise utopia of unlimited desires that Sairei no Heibi intended from his original vision.
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Old 2012-03-11, 11:58   Link #37
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i dont seem to understand the role of Johan and Pheles as well as their connection to Yoshida and the war, i think half of the time i dont get what the characters are talking about...

anyway the actions continue, speechless about the "kill as much we can" tactic of the so call "4 gods"
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Old 2012-03-11, 16:03   Link #38
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i dont seem to understand the role of Johan and Pheles as well as their connection to Yoshida and the war, i think half of the time i dont get what the characters are talking about...
I think we'll see what they mean in the upcoming episodes. At the very least, we know that they intend to use the Snake's Xanadu creation. Most likely to make sure Johan survives and doesn't disappear.

Quote:
anyway the actions continue, speechless about the "kill as much we can" tactic of the so call "4 gods"
The question that beckons is, do the Denizens feel fear to such an extent that seeing so many of their comrades slaughtered makes them give up eating humans and encourage future generations to follow suit?

And I also wonder exactly what the punishment for breaking the One Law is (as I assume the law itself dictates that the Denizens shall not eat humans, or something along that line).
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