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Old 2012-03-08, 17:41   Link #81
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If you dislike Tsunade so much then maybe you should skip the next one or two chapters, because she will most likely continue to fight Madara and show him how the will of fire can make her stronger than she was supposed to be just by looking at her genetic abilities. One of the main themes of this manga is that just because you are not genetically as good as someone else you can still become better than him if you have a strong will and determination and so you work hard. She didn't inherit the physical power of her grandfather so she invented a special technique based on very precise chakra control and she became very strong, she didn't inherit her grandfather's ability to regenerate so she invented a self regeneration jutsu based on chakra stored in the seal on her forehead and who knows what other medical jutsu.

In the end she will be saved by Itachi or someone else, but in these 1 or 2 chapters she is the hero who is placed in the spotlight. These are her 15 minutes of glory in this war.
Even though I agree with you, can one name good guy please die in this war?
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Old 2012-03-08, 18:31   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Even though I agree with you, can one name good guy please die in this war?
Does he/she have to have a name?

Well technically not even Samui, Yamato and Anko are dead. Anko might be revived by Itachi and then she can get a few panels being in the spotlight. Yamato might also be alive, if i remember correctly he was in Tobi's hideout half built in into the cells of Hashirama. Samui was simply sealed inside some megical device, probably can be removed from it somehow (she has too large boobs to die). I'm also disappointed by this, this war is a noname average ninja holocaust but not even one of the named ninja died, it's simply too unrealistic. Some new names were introduced in this war, so i was thinking these were introduced to be killed off in the war, for example the older general from the lighting village, he was a perfect candidate to die. Then when nobody died i thought maybe Kishimoto is waiting for Tobi's entrance to kill them, but he simply placed the Tobi-Naruto fight in a distant place, and then he made sure that by the time the alliance arrives to the place all the tailed beasts are sealed away.

I think the best candidates for death are the two older kages, but for them to die now, there should be a good reason. Some chapters ago I thought that these kages to build up the tension and suspense that's needed before the hero (Naruto) comes to save the world. But now it seems that they'll just be used as measuring sticks for Madara's powers, and so this Madara (maybe merged with Tobi or some other way) and Sasuke and Naruto will be the final level of power, all being well beyond kage level (of course for that Sasuke and Naruto will need another powerup). So now it seems that the kages will all survive, later they'll just become some kind of elders that can help Naruto in different ways but not being in the center of the story any more.
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Old 2012-03-08, 20:16   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
One of the main themes of this manga is that just because you are not genetically as good as someone else you can still become better than him if you have a strong will and determination and so you work hard.
That was Rock Lee's theme, not the manga's.
The fact that being genetically superior means that you are better than most everybody has become an absolute fact of this manga with the whole RS descendant/Minato's son crap.
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Old 2012-03-08, 20:44   Link #84
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Does he/she have to have a name?

I'm also disappointed by this, this war is a noname average ninja holocaust but not even one of the named ninja died, it's simply too unrealistic.
I agree it's kind of jarring that none of the newly introduced older characters were killed off. I think some, like Mifune (who hasn't really done anything since his fight with Hanzo) should've died.

But death does cost the story in terms of moving the plot along. It can be mentioned a dozen no-names got killed off screen in one panel then back to the story without missing a beat. A named character's death must receive build up (flashbacks and such) and closure (more flashbacks, other characters shown mourning) in order to have impact. The more important the character, the more time spent with their death. Readers expect it. For a named character, there's going to be at least a page or two devoted to just showing the others remember them. If a major character dies (like Sandaime) probably they're going to receive an entire chapter focused on their passing.

Considering that, I can see why Kishi and other mangaka are reluctant to constantly string deaths together even though it might make things more intense. It would bog down the rest of the story. Still, I would've liked to seen one or two deaths squeezed in by now.
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Old 2012-03-08, 20:56   Link #85
Ero-Senn1n
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That was Rock Lee's theme, not the manga's.
The fact that being genetically superior means that you are better than most everybody has become an absolute fact of this manga with the whole RS descendant/Minato's son crap.
I have a different view on this. Minato is the best example, he didn't have any advanced bloodline, yet he became the hokage and not someone from the great clans. So was the case with the 3rd hokage. Another example is Ororchimaru, and also Kabuto, even if they did it the evil way, but they worked hard to gain abilities that others like Madara or Hashirama have simply had by default. Then there's Jiraiya too, just like the other 2 sannins, he became a sage. I didn't mean to say that these people actually surpassed the most powerful bloodline-powered guys like Hashirama or Itachi (as i wrote in my last post Tsunade won't win the fight here, she's still weaker), but in the process of rivalry and competition they became stronger than most of the bloodline-powered guys there are. Sure Lee or Gai will never compete with people like Itachi or Sasuke, but they became stronger than most of the ninja who have advanced bloodlines. We can say that even the current Edo-Madara is the product of not giving up on being inferior to someone else, Madara both admired and hated Hashirama, he admitted to be inferior to him, but he didn't give up, he made a plan to surpass him. And finally there was Sasuke, in all those flashbacks we see him training hard because he feels inferior to his brother, even if Itachi didn't have to kill his clan, and became hokage or something like that, even then Sasuke would have worked very hard to keep up with his brother, and in the process he would become stroner that if he didn't have this rivalry with his brother.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-03-08 at 21:09.
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Old 2012-03-08, 22:30   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So was the case with the 3rd hokage.
Sasuke was actually named after the 3rd's dad in hopes of him being as great. I'd say the 3rd had a pretty good lineage/genes.
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Old 2012-03-08, 22:56   Link #87
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I have a different view on this. Minato is the best example, he didn't have any advanced bloodline, yet he became the hokage and not someone from the great clans. So was the case with the 3rd hokage. Another example is Ororchimaru, and also Kabuto, even if they did it the evil way, but they worked hard to gain abilities that others like Madara or Hashirama have simply had by default. Then there's Jiraiya too, just like the other 2 sannins, he became a sage.
One thing all these shinobi have in common is that they all had help from Kage level shinobi's at one time or another. For example, Minato had Jiraiya, Oro & Jiraiya had Hiruzen, Hiruzen had the 2nd, and even Kabuto had Oro to learn from. Ultimately, I'd argue that advanced bloodlines & genetics only compose part of what makes the top-tier shinobi so powerful in this series. Because without Kage level shinobi guiding them, characters like Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't be anywhere's near the level they're at now. I'd even take this a step further by stating that above all else, the sensei's are more important than the genes when it comes to determining one's destiny for greatness (or lack of). I'm sure there are a few exceptions. But for the most part, this seems to be the case.
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Old 2012-03-09, 11:43   Link #88
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Madara's hyping of Harashima can't help but make Yamato look like even more of a disappointment. I'd actually like to see him join the 3 way showdown aswell. Maybe Sasuke can somehow get his own rinengan from 'consuming Yamato'
at least he can use mokuton. tsunade couldn't and she's a direct descendant.
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Old 2012-03-09, 12:23   Link #89
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Sasuke was actually named after the 3rd's dad in hopes of him being as great. I'd say the 3rd had a pretty good lineage/genes.
He didn't have any special bloodline abilities, i meant simply that. And none of his clan (Asuma and little guy whose name i forgot) that we know of have any special abilities, what they achieve is all their hard work and talent. We can also see that they reach their prime at an older age, since they have to work for it, as opposed to that people like Itachi unlock the MS at age of 12 and then they can beat people like Orochimaru. Jiraiya had to train his sage mode for decades for example. Then we see debates on the forum about how weak the sannins are because they were beaten by Hanzou who was alone while they were fighting together, but when they were young they didn't have all the jutsu and ablities that they worked on for decades.
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Old 2012-03-09, 13:38   Link #90
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If you dislike Tsunade so much then maybe you should skip the next one or two chapters, because she will most likely continue to fight Madara and show him how the will of fire can make her stronger than she was supposed to be just by looking at her genetic abilities. One of the main themes of this manga is that just because you are not genetically as good as someone else you can still become better than him if you have a strong will and determination and so you work hard. She didn't inherit the physical power of her grandfather so she invented a special technique based on very precise chakra control and she became very strong, she didn't inherit her grandfather's ability to regenerate so she invented a self regeneration jutsu based on chakra stored in the seal on her forehead and who knows what other medical jutsu.

In the end she will be saved by Itachi or someone else, but in these 1 or 2 chapters she is the hero who is placed in the spotlight. These are her 15 minutes of glory in this war.
there is not a whole lot to like about her. she is really good at medical jutsu and she is strong, thats about it. as strong as she is she cant hit most of the top tier charactors, because she doesnt have speed. i keep hearing over and over about how she healed the people during the pain battle. what a lot of people go out of there way to not talk about, is she needed to defeat pain himself. WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO SAVE THE PEOPLE IF THE BAD GUY IS STILL STANDING AROUND RAPING YOUR VILLIAGE. in the end she had to count on a genin(yes i know naruto is a sage) to actually beat this powerful ninja. call me crazy but if you have a ninja of pains level who your top ninja cant beat, i got to think the freaking hokage of the village should be the one out there fighting him. kish never gave us that, even if she failed to beat pain (and she would have) there is no shame in that. after all that is how many of the other kagas died. better to die like that than be bailed out by a genin. if i was the other kaga i dont think i would have much respect for her after hearing about how that all went down.
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Old 2012-03-09, 13:55   Link #91
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But death does cost the story in terms of moving the plot along. It can be mentioned a dozen no-names got killed off screen in one panel then back to the story without missing a beat. A named character's death must receive build up (flashbacks and such) and closure (more flashbacks, other characters shown mourning) in order to have impact. The more important the character, the more time spent with their death. Readers expect it. For a named character, there's going to be at least a page or two devoted to just showing the others remember them. If a major character dies (like Sandaime) probably they're going to receive an entire chapter focused on their passing.

Considering that, I can see why Kishi and other mangaka are reluctant to constantly string deaths together even though it might make things more intense. It would bog down the rest of the story. Still, I would've liked to seen one or two deaths squeezed in by now.
I agree that perhaps Kishi felt that killing a name character would of forced him to spend valuable panel time on their death. But unfortunately, it seems that this war being as antiseptic as a hospital room was quite intentional. Hence the zombies and Zetsu clay balls as the main villains. This way the good guys didn't actually have to get their hands bloody. Kishi tried hard to play up the psychological aspect of the Alliance having to face their former friends, relatives, and teachers during the war. But it felt flat compared to an actual war where you have to face the consequences of taking the life of a living being. Hell, the fights against the Sound Four plus Kimimarro felt more mature.

I understand not wanting to kill any of the teenagers. Even those with no real relevance like Kankuro, Temari, or Tenten. But anyone introduced during the Kage Summit, or over the age of 30, should of been fair game. The idea of the next generation taking over for the previous one, works a lot better when the previous one isn't around to hold their hands.

If no one is really in danger, than what is the point of Madara vs. the Kages? Other than a light show and big explosions? I am not saying you have to have death to make a fight interesting. But it is ridiculous not one name character has dropped in a war against immortal zombies and their hax powers.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:15   Link #92
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there is not a whole lot to like about her. she is really good at medical jutsu and she is strong, thats about it. as strong as she is she cant hit most of the top tier charactors, because she doesnt have speed. i keep hearing over and over about how she healed the people during the pain battle. what a lot of people go out of there way to not talk about, is she needed to defeat pain himself. WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO SAVE THE PEOPLE IF THE BAD GUY IS STILL STANDING AROUND RAPING YOUR VILLIAGE. in the end she had to count on a genin(yes i know naruto is a sage) to actually beat this powerful ninja. call me crazy but if you have a ninja of pains level who your top ninja cant beat, i got to think the freaking hokage of the village should be the one out there fighting him. kish never gave us that, even if she failed to beat pain (and she would have) there is no shame in that. after all that is how many of the other kagas died. better to die like that than be bailed out by a genin. if i was the other kaga i dont think i would have much respect for her after hearing about how that all went down.
Tsunade was about to step in and fight pain herself, but luckily for everyone naruto came just in time to take him on for her. while she was healing everyone, she was doing what a kage should, letting her jounins fight the battle. a general never takes the front lines unless its absolutely necessary. when it became apparent that the jounins couldn't handle him (kakashi dying and so forth) she went out on her own to fight him one on one. she most certainly would have died, but she was still brave enough to do it. it's not like any of the other current kages could have beaten nagato one on one either. he was one of the top 10 ninjas of all time in the series (top 5 at that time). I'm also not trying to defend tsunade's character, because kishi just writes weaker female roles and it's a fact, but she did go out there herself with the intention of fighting him. I don't see what else she could have done. naruto was clearly the better choice to fight him. no need to have the village's leader die if it wasn't the last possible option
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:23   Link #93
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Naruto used to be my favorite anime & manga - but it feels as though its been dragging on too long. I mean, the story that revolves around the protagonist hasn't had much progress in the last 3-5 years. Sasuke still isn't back, he's gotten worse - to the point he will kill his home village given the chance.

Naruto is still as brainless as ever, only to receive random "Power Ups" ever year, hence he's the "Chosen One". This war was truly genius as soon as Madara came into play. But its clear he will be trolled by T in upcoming weeks. This manga is based on past hatred and situations being reborned/reincarnated right? Well, H beat M somehow, so its clearly obvious H descendant will get a Nakama power up and beat M.

I just wish this plot jumped - my patience is running on fumes.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:29   Link #94
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Any last shred of hope to see one of the rookies in the slightest amount of real danger disappeared the moment we learned Pain had only wounded Hinata.
I mean think this through : the author didn't even have the balls to kill her knowing she would be revived a few chapters later.

They are for all intent and purpose more immortal than any Edo-Tensei.
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Old 2012-03-09, 14:42   Link #95
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Any last shred of hope to see one of the rookies in the slightest amount of real danger disappeared the moment we learned Pain had only wounded Hinata.
I mean think this through : the author didn't even have the balls to kill her knowing she would be revived a few chapters later.

They are for all intent and purpose more immortal than any Edo-Tensei.
You have a fantastic point here, that's somewhat ridiculous if you truly think about it.

Even kakashi, was tossed aside, but he clearly came back.
This begs the question if the anime is truly going to end abruptly or drag on another decade.

Your thoughts?
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Old 2012-03-09, 15:02   Link #96
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Any last shred of hope to see one of the rookies in the slightest amount of real danger disappeared the moment we learned Pain had only wounded Hinata.
I mean think this through : the author didn't even have the balls to kill her knowing she would be revived a few chapters later.
I think it had to be done that way, because otherwise Naruto not trying to kill Nagato would be called complete bullshit. Naruto lost his mind (transformed into kyuubi) because he was thinking that Hinata is dead. Later when the slug tells him she and others are still alive he is so happy that he even cries a bit, i think Kishimoto inserted that to somehow bridge the state of complete madness (kyuubi transformed) and the state of mind when he talks to Nagato.

One could also say that when Nagato saw Hinata defending Naruto he briefly remembered his childhood, when he defended Yahiko, when Konan saved him from death, so his subconscious forced him to not hit a vital point and let Hinata survive. But that's just trying to make more sense of it
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Old 2012-03-09, 15:54   Link #97
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I think it had to be done that way, because otherwise Naruto not trying to kill Nagato would be called complete bullshit. Naruto lost his mind (transformed into kyuubi) because he was thinking that Hinata is dead. Later when the slug tells him she and others are still alive he is so happy that he even cries a bit, i think Kishimoto inserted that to somehow bridge the state of complete madness (kyuubi transformed) and the state of mind when he talks to Nagato.
I think hunter is pretty spot on with that analysis. I remember being shocked by it as well when everyone was brought back to life. naruto should have still been pretty upset and angry about kakashi being killed. of course hinata is the one that pushed him over into rage since it happened right in front of him, but I have to think kakashi's death should have been enough to prove the point that naruto was in control of his emotions and desired peace above all else
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Old 2012-03-09, 18:00   Link #98
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naruto should have still been pretty upset and angry about kakashi being killed. of course hinata is the one that pushed him over into rage since it happened right in front of him, but I have to think kakashi's death should have been enough to prove the point that naruto was in control of his emotions and desired peace above all else
He was very angry and sad when he realized that kakashi is dead, but he was in complete control of his mind then, that how he could fight and to think of strategies to beat the various pain bodies. He also dealt with Jiraiya's death earlier. But Hinata's death was completely different as we have seen it, he completely freaked out and lost control. To put it another way: how would you have reacted if Hinata was dead and then you see Naruto lets Nagato walk away, not even trying to get revenge for what just happened? I would call that complete bullshit. But since Hinata and many others survived, we are more likely to accept Naruto's decision. It doesn't mean that we accept it, just that it's more acceptable that way
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Old 2012-03-09, 18:29   Link #99
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He was very angry and sad when he realized that kakashi is dead, but he was in complete control of his mind then, that how he could fight and to think of strategies to beat the various pain bodies. He also dealt with Jiraiya's death earlier. But Hinata's death was completely different as we have seen it, he completely freaked out and lost control. To put it another way: how would you have reacted if Hinata was dead and then you see Naruto lets Nagato walk away, not even trying to get revenge for what just happened? I would call that complete bullshit. But since Hinata and many others survived, we are more likely to accept Naruto's decision. It doesn't mean that we accept it, just that it's more acceptable that way
I don't see it that way. I think what infuriated naruto more was seeing it done right in front of him. if kakashi was killed right in front of his eyes I believe he would have reacted the same way. likewise, if he arrived at the fight and was told that hinata was already killed, I don't think he would have gone crazy and tried to completely unseal the kyuubi from the news.

by the time naruto reached nagato for their face to face, he was much calmer and I believe would have negotiated for peace and tried to understand where nagato was coming from regardless of who he thought was still dead or not. I'm sure it was a relief to hear she was alive, but I don't see it as a game changer, when kakashi (someone who means much more to him than hinata) is lying dead on the same battlefield he just left

edit: I do also believe though that kishi wussed out and wasn't willing to have her die at all. I just disagree about it effecting naruto's will to the extent you're implying
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Old 2012-03-09, 20:38   Link #100
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I don't see it that way. I think what infuriated naruto more was seeing it done right in front of him. if kakashi was killed right in front of his eyes I believe he would have reacted the same way. likewise, if he arrived at the fight and was told that hinata was already killed, I don't think he would have gone crazy and tried to completely unseal the kyuubi from the news.
If you agree that Hinata's apparent death had such a huge impact on Naruto then i guess we only disagree on it's effect being strong enough after Naruto talked with his father.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
by the time naruto reached nagato for their face to face, he was much calmer and I believe would have negotiated for peace and tried to understand where nagato was coming from regardless of who he thought was still dead or not. I'm sure it was a relief to hear she was alive, but I don't see it as a game changer, when kakashi (someone who means much more to him than hinata) is lying dead on the same battlefield he just left
Here is our disagreemant then, he just saw minutes ago Nagato killing Hinata in cold blood and also giving Naruto a speech about killing her and other things like that. In my opinion knowing that she's alive and that also many others are alive was quite important for Naruto to be able to calm down and be able to supress his rage. And we, the readers, were even more affected, since we see how Sakura and Neji are there and try to save her, while Naruto doesn't see that. So if Kishimoto shows us Sakura saying that Hinata's vital points were hit and she's dying then would we accept that meanwhile she dies Naruto lets Nagato go away? The author obviously wants the reader to be on the hero's side, but if Hinata died before our eyes, while in the same chapter Naruto doesn't seek revenge, we readers would never accept the hero's decisions.

If we remove this reasoning from the equation than killing Hinata would be the best thing for dramatic effect. A death has always much more impact than just being wounded. And i think Kishimoto would have done that if he knows that she will be revived anyway.
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