AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-03-11, 01:27   Link #981
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Just to clarify, but where in the series did it state that Yuu was trapped in the otherworld? I've been reading it as Strength is simply Yuu's protective psyche similar to a split personality where one personality is used as a shield to protect the core. Anyway, in the end Saya is still trying to save/protect Yuu/Strength.
The real Yuu switched places with STR and went to the otherworld. We already know this because the Yuu we've been seeing in the real world doesn't exist (as a normal human: she has no shadow, people don't remember her, etc.).

In the flashback in this episode, at the very end, (human) Yuu specifically said to Saya "there's no world more painful than this" and then made Saya agree to promise to protect her. Yuu then proceeded to unlock Saya's "other self". It is completely clear that the original, human Yuu went to live in the otherworld, and that that Yuu is the only one who Saya cares about--Saya doesn't really care about STR (the non-human Yuu currently in the real world) at all.

Quote:
Well that's where we're going to have to agree to disagree. You say this level of torment isn't enough to cause Mato to snap, I say it is. You would think that she would know better than most about how fragile the school girls are. She is also taking a huge risk by gambling that Mato would not go crazy, since a majority of the girls seems to have a few screws loose. Even more so, when Saya is deliberately targeting girls with a close relationship with Mato.
I've just said that Saya does not deliberate target people close to Mato. She targets anyone who has an exploitable trauma or pain. Yomi in particular already had a strong/highly-developed otherworld persona. It was simply obvious for Saya to target her.

The middle school girls in this show are not particularly more fragile than normal ones are. Saya just happens to be deliberately trolling them, saying shit like "you're the laughingstock of the school" or "nobody would care if you died" when she's supposed to be in the trusted position of a guidance counsellor. Kagari is the one exception who went crazy by herself; Yomi and Kohata would've been fine without Saya's intervention. The point is, most people, including Mato, would not normally undergo enough pain to unlock something like IBRS without any trolling from Saya.

Quote:
Yuu already said that "BRS is Mato's otherself that fights against her grief". Guess what grief she was fighting when she met Yomi? When Kohata's love letter was displayed to everyone. When Yomi went insane? BRS only fights things that Mato is deeply concerned about. There is no indication that BRS was destroying the world other than the people Saya was sending to fight BRS. Which again, goes against the reasoning that Saya is trying to protect that world or protect Yuu. For all we know BRS might have done nothing if she didn't keep running into crazy people.
I don't remember that quote. It has generally been said that people's otherself personas shoulder their pain, not that they fight against it. They basically absorb it (and get stronger in the process). No explanation has been given yet for why the otherworld personas fight each other, or what BRS is really doing. "Fighting against grief" doesn't make sense because when BRS kills an otherworld persona, it destroys the other person's grief, not Mato's.

STR and Saya basically said that BRS has the potential to destroy the other world. That was this episode. This is the basis for believing that BRS somehow intends to do so. It's also the reason we have been given thus far for why Saya wants to defeat her.

Quote:
"Let sleeping giants lie". That's all I have to say. Provoking BRS or Mato is probably the worse thing to do.
Well, you will have to wait until we get a clearer idea of STR/real-world Yuu's motivations to figure out why she did that then. Awakening IBRS had nothing to do with Saya's actual plan. In this episode, Saya very clearly showed that she was angry with STR/real-world Yuu's actions.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 04:04   Link #982
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The real Yuu switched places with STR and went to the otherworld. We already know this because the Yuu we've been seeing in the real world doesn't exist (as a normal human: she has no shadow, people don't remember her, etc.).

In the flashback in this episode, at the very end, (human) Yuu specifically said to Saya "there's no world more painful than this" and then made Saya agree to promise to protect her. Yuu then proceeded to unlock Saya's "other self". It is completely clear that the original, human Yuu went to live in the otherworld, and that that Yuu is the only one who Saya cares about--Saya doesn't really care about STR (the non-human Yuu currently in the real world) at all.
That makes sense, although if it isn't from the horses mouth directly I'm a little skeptical still. I'm a bit wary why Strength decided to approach Mato as her childhood friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I've just said that Saya does not deliberate target people close to Mato. She targets anyone who has an exploitable trauma or pain. Yomi in particular already had a strong/highly-developed otherworld persona. It was simply obvious for Saya to target her.
And you don't find odd that the people with "exploitable trauma or pain" all happen to have close relationships with Mato? You know, the one person Saya is trying not to put mental strain on, lest IBRS awakens. We have Kagari through an extention of Yomi, Yomi herself, and Kohata. All these people have put an unbelievable amount on stress on Mato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The middle school girls in this show are not particularly more fragile than normal ones are. Saya just happens to be deliberately trolling them, saying shit like "you're the laughingstock of the school" or "nobody would care if you died" when she's supposed to be in the trusted position of a guidance counsellor. Kagari is the one exception who went crazy by herself; Yomi and Kohata would've been fine without Saya's intervention. The point is, most people, including Mato, would not normally undergo enough pain to unlock something like IBRS without any trolling from Saya.
Normal ones? What normal ones? We're being beaten over the head with unstable, hysterical, crazy, psychotic, disturbed, unhinged, mental, insane, demented, and deranged people from the get go of this show. It's the entire reason why Saya is the middle school counselor.

Going by that trend makes it hard to take anything the show gives us seriously and more of trying to pull some sort of response out of the audience. Given that Yomi has gone completely bonkers by the end of the fifth episode, it wasn't surprising when Mato started to show signs of depression, frustration, desperation and even despair. I mean, she find that no one remembers Yuu her childhood friend and Saya does a 180 turn in her personality (from Mato's view) and tries to pretend strangle her, which you left out in your reply. All these unexplainable things and personal issues she is facing at home and at school act as destabilizing agents for Mato's sanity. For god's sake Yomi made a bracelet out of her own hair and then proceeded to paint this disturbing picture of Mato. To top things off Mato freaking bitchslapped kagari when she said "Yomi's heart broke" in a monotone voice. And now you say that Mato isn't at risk even with all this? Instead, you are telling me that Saya is too stupid to see the dangers of Mato's psyche descending into madness and awakening IBRS. Nope, since "The emotional traumas of people around Mato aren't enough to significantly harm her." from your point of view. That is just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't remember that quote. It has generally been said that people's otherself personas shoulder their pain, not that they fight against it. They basically absorb it (and get stronger in the process). No explanation has been given yet for why the otherworld personas fight each other, or what BRS is really doing. "Fighting against grief" doesn't make sense because when BRS kills an otherworld persona, it destroys the other person's grief, not Mato's.
Here it is.

And again, whoever Mato meets or knows BRS will fight against, since they all causing Mato grief. Saya sending in Dead Master and Kohata against BRS happens because Saya sent Dead Master and Kohata against BRS. BRS isn't destroying the world, she is destroying whatever Mato is facing thanks to Saya. If they showed BRS killing anyone else that Mato hasn't met or is an acquaintance of then I would think differently, but that is not the case.

Here, let me break it down for you in the very first episode from BRS's world.

1) BRS is lying on the jagged spike tower.
2) Jagged spike tower starts to grow and multiply.
3) We see BGS eyes at the bottom of the giant hole.
4) We see BRS getting attacked by BGS with her ridiculous giant-sizeed sword.

And again later on in the episode with Chariot at 13:49:

1) We see BRS wandering aimlessly around
2) She noticed a green stream of lights flowing on the ground
3) She follows it
4) Sudden burst of light
5) She gets dragged into Chariots world
6) She gets fucking streamrolled by Chariot while exploring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
STR and Saya basically said that BRS has the potential to destroy the other world. That was this episode. This is the basis for believing that BRS somehow intends to do so. It's also the reason we have been given thus far for why Saya wants to defeat her.
Correction, only Saya said that. If Yuu thought the same she wouldn't have awakened IBRS. Also, relevant. Stop sending the world to be destroyed then, if you don't want the world to be destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Well, you will have to wait until we get a clearer idea of STR/real-world Yuu's motivations to figure out why she did that then. Awakening IBRS had nothing to do with Saya's actual plan. In this episode, Saya very clearly showed that she was angry with STR/real-world Yuu's actions.
And again, if that is true then Saya should choose targets not close to Mato or, you know, have the trusted school counselor pretend strangle her if she didn't want to put more emotional strain on Mato and run the risk of BRS awakening for the above reasons.
__________________

Last edited by Elestia; 2012-03-11 at 04:21.
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 06:32   Link #983
silvercover
Romance Expert
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
im not really defending the series but I think its more like saya was "grooming" mato into someone she could use to help erase certain violent others(like kagari) instead of trying to kill BRS.
note that BRS was passive against chariot and didnt attack until after saya had her talk with mato. I dunno what to make of BGS attacking in the first ep though, it could have just been symbolic/tease like in OP songs. or it could be that BGS was just making her moves on preventing her.

she just didnt think that it would lead to this.
(actually an old theory, and weird right now)
silvercover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 06:49   Link #984
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
im not really defending the series but I think its more like saya was "grooming" mato into someone she could use to help erase certain violent others(like kagari) instead of trying to kill BRS.
Killing Chariot just made Yomi more crazy (and DM more powerful). Also, BGS only intervened in that fight after Chariot was already defeated, and mostly to take DM away from BRS. If Chariot was strong enough to deal with BRS, BGS most likely wouldn't have intervened at all.

In any case. I agree with Sol Falling that Saya wanted to get rid of BRS since the beginning (she toyed with the idea of killing Mato in episode 5, before IBRS appeared, remember?), and that her objective is to protect Yuu who is trapped in the other world.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 08:38   Link #985
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Normal ones? What normal ones? We're being beaten over the head with unstable, hysterical, crazy, psychotic, disturbed, unhinged, mental, insane, demented, and deranged people from the get go of this show. It's the entire reason why Saya is the middle school counselor.
No, not really. That was my point. The girls are only crazy in this show because Saya is trying to make them crazy to make them strong in the otherworld. Yomi and Kohata would not have gotten anywhere near as bad without Saya's influence. Kagari is an exception. You can't just say "oh Mato would've gone crazy like they did" because they are not in comparable situations.

Quote:
Going by that trend makes it hard to take anything the show gives us seriously and more of trying to pull some sort of response out of the audience. Given that Yomi has gone completely bonkers by the end of the fifth episode, it wasn't surprising when Mato started to show signs of depression, frustration, desperation and even despair. I mean, she find that no one remembers Yuu her childhood friend and Saya does a 180 turn in her personality (from Mato's view) and tries to pretend strangle her, which you left out in your reply. All these unexplainable things and personal issues she is facing at home and at school act as destabilizing agents for Mato's sanity. For god's sake Yomi made a bracelet out of her own hair and then proceeded to paint this disturbing picture of Mato. To top things off Mato freaking bitchslapped kagari when she said "Yomi's heart broke" in a monotone voice. And now you say that Mato isn't at risk even with all this? Instead, you are telling me that Saya is too stupid to see the dangers of Mato's psyche descending into madness and awakening IBRS. Nope, since "The emotional traumas of people around Mato aren't enough to significantly harm her." from your point of view. That is just silly.
Yomi was told "no one would care if you didn't exist". This specifically targeted her insecurities after Kagari forgot her/stopped needing her and she was jealous of Mato and Yuu's relationship. It implanted an idea which was deliberately meant to hurt Yomi emotionally.

Stuff like people not knowing who Yuu is, the "nice counsellor lady" for some reason strangling her, etc. would've been confusing for Mato, but there is no reason they would have to give her an actual emotionally wound. Mato has a generally positive/optimistic personality (hell, Yomi and Kohata were initially optimistic as well), it would require deliberate targeted/malicious attacks like Saya uses for it to actually be dangerous. The difference lies specifically in whether someone is actively trying to worsen all the bad things she's experienced. Random stuff in the real world like bitchslapping somebody or seeing a disturbing painting is simply not on the same level as being forced to see yourself kill somebody you wanted to save. There is no evidence at all that IBRS would have appeared without Yuu's actions.

Quote:
And again, whoever Mato meets or knows BRS will fight against, since they all causing Mato grief. Saya sending in Dead Master and Kohata against BRS happens because Saya sent Dead Master and Kohata against BRS. BRS isn't destroying the world, she is destroying whatever Mato is facing thanks to Saya. If they showed BRS killing anyone else that Mato hasn't met or is an acquaintance of then I would think differently, but that is not the case.
Saya never "sent in" Kohata, Mato stumbled across Kohata's problem by herself. BRS also killed Kohata's otherworld persona by herself. This went against Saya's plan because Kohata's persona had barely even begun growing, so you can clearly see that BRS is not killing things only because Saya is making her do so. BRS's killing sprees have nothing to do with Mato's grief specifically (how exactly does Kohata being laughed at, or Kagari feeling extremely possessive of Yomi, actually affect Mato's own pain?), rather she just seems to be randomly killing various things that she runs across (i.e. possibly attempting to destroy the other world). It's true that BRS mostly seems to be killing things associated with people Mato runs across in real life, but this doesn't mean that Saya has anything to do with it, just that (like we've been saying) BRS appears to be attempting to destroy the other world.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 10:47   Link #986
klare
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
we get to see a little into the past of Yuu and Saya, Yomi wants to forget about Mato?

very nice animations again, and yeah i still do not fully understand what is going on, guess they will explain in the final eps
__________________
klare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 11:11   Link #987
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
That's a bit of a stretch. Madoka really drove a sense of despair into the show that really was depressing to watch as the episodes continued. Besides I don't think episode 3 of Madoka could really be topped or even hold a candle to in this episode of BRS.
Meh. Episode 3 of Madoka was to catch the type of audience that is looking for the next "nice boat". I didn't find it particularly shocking given the already existing foreshadowing that this wasn't going to be your usual happy fairy tale story.

What I meant by the comparison wasn't to draw parallels directly between the two except in the sense of thematics. Madoka is a dark fantasy story. It's not happy, for the most part. People suffer, people do bad things, and the fantasy elements of the story use that surrealism to further drive that point home. You could mostly remove those fantasy elements and still have a dark story of course; the characters are definitely tragic for the most part. The same is true of BRS. This is not a happy story, and this is reinforced over and over again. However the fantasy is essential, as it drives most of the character interactions, and allows the writers to introduce and expand on themes that don't come up in standard drama. It provides both the setting and the metaphor for the questions raised to the audience.

As genres go, they are both very different stories with different means to an end. As far as thematics go, they are both very similar: tragic, dark, depressing, disturbing, further emphasized by the fantasy elements the characters are caught up in.

Hence why I said "easily capable of standing next to Madoka in terms of dark fantasy". (bold and link added)

Admittedly it's not an easy definition to explain, but I hope my comment is more understandable now.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 11:41   Link #988
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 24
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Not only that, but over in Japan I think the preorders for the boxset have been basically sold out from very early on in its airing, ever since the bundled IBRS figure was announced. So on a success and popularity level, I don't think this anime has been doing too badly.

Well, I can't be as optimistic as you about the preorders, but the last episode picked some of people's interest, I think.
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 14:19   Link #989
Quarkboy
Anime Translator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 35
Send a message via AIM to Quarkboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iby View Post

Well, I can't be as optimistic as you about the preorders, but the last episode picked some of people's interest, I think.
It's still probably because of the figure, since the last episode was the first we saw of IBRS in action (which makes people want the figure more).
__________________
Yomiuri Television Enterprise
International Media Strategy Chief
Sam Pinansky
Quarkboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:05   Link #990
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, not really. That was my point. The girls are only crazy in this show because Saya is trying to make them crazy to make them strong in the otherworld. Yomi and Kohata would not have gotten anywhere near as bad without Saya's influence. Kagari is an exception. You can't just say "oh Mato would've gone crazy like they did" because they are not in comparable situations.
And you are saying that despite people close to Mato are going batshit insane, forgetting Yuu exists, or being mocked-strangled, Mato isn't going to have some pent up stress building. I already pointed that Mato's situation is way beyond what any average middle-schooler goes through (I daresay, even more or similar to what Yomi is going through), but you are constantly defending the point that Mato is somehow a super-stoic girl and does not run the risk that pent up stress being a risk. You know, that Saya wants to avoid at all cost, awakening IBRS. Remember what Saya said after IBRS woke up? You know, the conditions that is required to awaken a person's alter ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yomi was told "no one would care if you didn't exist". This specifically targeted her insecurities after Kagari forgot her/stopped needing her and she was jealous of Mato and Yuu's relationship. It implanted an idea which was deliberately meant to hurt Yomi emotionally.
You have no evidence to suggest that Yomi would be perfectly fine if Saya didn't insert that unnecessary bit of advice. As you stated, after Kagari's ordeal, Yomi was already in a vulnerable state. Saya merely acted as a catalyst, it could be entirely plausible that Yomi would have gone crazy too, without Saya's interference. Do you remember what finally made Yomi snap? It wasn't Saya, but Kagari that broke the camel's back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Stuff like people not knowing who Yuu is, the "nice counsellor lady" for some reason strangling her, etc. would've been confusing for Mato, but there is no reason they would have to give her an actual emotionally wound. Mato has a generally positive/optimistic personality (hell, Yomi and Kohata were initially optimistic as well), it would require deliberate targeted/malicious attacks like Saya uses for it to actually be dangerous. The difference lies specifically in whether someone is actively trying to worsen all the bad things she's experienced. Random stuff in the real world like bitchslapping somebody or seeing a disturbing painting is simply not on the same level as being forced to see yourself kill somebody you wanted to save. There is no evidence at all that IBRS would have appeared without Yuu's actions.

Right. Cause there is no way she didn't run the risk at all before she was transferred to the otherworld. You are again arguing that Saya would be stupid enough to gamble that Mato wouldn't awaken. She is trying to prevent IBRS from awakening at all costs, when she slapped Yuu it tells us how strongly Saya wanted to prevent that from happening. If IBRS awoken then no one would be able to stop her, yet you are telling me she wanted to bet against that worst-case-scenario still. As I have pointed out, BRS did not seem to be randomly killing or targeting alter-egos indiscriminately. There was no reason to kill BRS for the reasons Saya stated of "destroying the world".

Considering all the crap Mato went through to try to save Yomi from Kagari's messed up relationship, I would think Mato would care very deeply about Yomi's situation. There is a reason why Mato responded so strongly to Kagari's comments about Yomi. Considering that Mato's remaining few persons she could trust was the school counselor, a refuge and sanctuary from her worries, but instead betrays that trust with an unexplainable and threatening action. Considering that Yuu is Mato's childhood friend that everyone in school knew, but suddenly one-day not a single person remembers her except herself. What would Mato be thinking of at that time? Maybe that she is going insane? Maybe Yuu was somehow a hallucination? Or when Mato was starting to forget Yuu too? What do you think would have happened if Mato didn't find Yuu sitting on the riverbank while she was desperately trying cling onto her memories of Yuu? That there was no trace of Yuu in the world and that somehow all her memories of Yuu were fake or a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Saya never "sent in" Kohata, Mato stumbled across Kohata's problem by herself. BRS also killed Kohata's otherworld persona by herself. This went against Saya's plan because Kohata's persona had barely even begun growing, so you can clearly see that BRS is not killing things only because Saya is making her do so. BRS's killing sprees have nothing to do with Mato's grief specifically (how exactly does Kohata being laughed at, or Kagari feeling extremely possessive of Yomi, actually affect Mato's own pain?), rather she just seems to be randomly killing various things that she runs across (i.e. possibly attempting to destroy the other world). It's true that BRS mostly seems to be killing things associated with people Mato runs across in real life, but this doesn't mean that Saya has anything to do with it, just that (like we've been saying) BRS appears to be attempting to destroy the other world.
For Kohata, Saya targeted her because she had an exploitable situation. However, at the same time Kohata was part of the basketball team that Mato participates in. While she didn't send Kohata herself, she indirectly made Mato worry deeply about Kohata when Saya exposed her love letter to everyone in the school. That means the chances that Mato would be aware that Kohata was suffering would lead to BRS dealing with the unease Mato was experiencing. This defeats the entire purpose of what Saya is trying to accomplish if it was not her goal to not have BRS go after Kohata. Therefore, it was only natural that BRS would run into Kohata after Saya mind-trolled her. So what does that mean? Saya indirectly sent Kohata's problems to Mato by exposing the love-letter to everyone the school to see, to gossip about, and to reach her ears. Not to mention despite being in the very same basketball club as Mato.

And remember what Yuu said. If Saya didn't keep sending people close to Mato through a traumatic experience, there is no reason to believe that BRS would be destroying the world. What Mato worries about will inevitably lead BRS to "dealing with the situation".
__________________
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:07   Link #991
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Meh. Episode 3 of Madoka was to catch the type of audience that is looking for the next "nice boat". I didn't find it particularly shocking given the already existing foreshadowing that this wasn't going to be your usual happy fairy tale story.

What I meant by the comparison wasn't to draw parallels directly between the two except in the sense of thematics. Madoka is a dark fantasy story. It's not happy, for the most part. People suffer, people do bad things, and the fantasy elements of the story use that surrealism to further drive that point home. You could mostly remove those fantasy elements and still have a dark story of course; the characters are definitely tragic for the most part. The same is true of BRS. This is not a happy story, and this is reinforced over and over again. However the fantasy is essential, as it drives most of the character interactions, and allows the writers to introduce and expand on themes that don't come up in standard drama. It provides both the setting and the metaphor for the questions raised to the audience.

As genres go, they are both very different stories with different means to an end. As far as thematics go, they are both very similar: tragic, dark, depressing, disturbing, further emphasized by the fantasy elements the characters are caught up in.

Hence why I said "easily capable of standing next to Madoka in terms of dark fantasy". (bold and link added)

Admittedly it's not an easy definition to explain, but I hope my comment is more understandable now.
Yeah that's makes much more sense. Although, as you said there is a bit of melodrama which to me cheapens the overall seriousness of the show. Maybe it is because I'm not too used with so much emotional baggage and mental breakdowns in such a few episodes.
__________________
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:09   Link #992
dan-heron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Saya never did anything with the love letter. It was Takkun's friends who posted the thing and he didn't stop them.
dan-heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:26   Link #993
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-heron View Post
Saya never did anything with the love letter. It was Takkun's friends who posted the thing and he didn't stop them.
Hmm, watched the scene again. No one seems to be taking credit for the post though. But, considering that we see BGS reaching out to Kohata's alter ego way before the scene and after Kohata gave Takkun the letter it points to Saya being the culprit. Really it fits, considering what Saya did to Yomi. Indirectly, and discreetly. Now if she can just stop smirking evilly all the time.

Episode 3 timeline:

Kohata gives love letter to Takkun. (5:00)
BGS reaches out to Kohata's Alter-ego. (9:25)
Letter is exposed. (14:29)
__________________
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:38   Link #994
dan-heron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
I was seeing the scene from Takkun's perspective.

It looked to me that Takkun knew his friends were going to post the letter and he, being part of "the group", didn't try to stop them fearing they would reject him.

Remember that he tried to get Kohata to forgive him by promising that he would explain things to the others. If it was Saya who somehow got her hands on it, he would have told Kohata that it had been Saya instead of him feeling guilty about what happened.
dan-heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:40   Link #995
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-heron View Post
I was seeing the scene from Takkun's perspective.

It looked to me that Takkun knew his friends were going to post the letter and he, being part of "the group", didn't try to stop them fearing they would reject him.

Remember that he tried to get Kohata to forgive him by promising that he would explain things to the others. If it was Saya who somehow got her hands on it, he would have told Kohata that it had been Saya instead of him feeling guilty about what happened.
Yet, in the end Saya approached Kohata with some mind-trolling powers, which unsurprisingly changes nothing about my main points.
__________________
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 20:48   Link #996
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Hmm, watched the scene again. No one seems to be taking credit for the post though. But, considering that we see BGS reaching out to Kohata's alter ego way before the scene and after Kohata gave Takkun the letter it points to Saya being the culprit. Really it fits, considering what Saya did to Yomi. Indirectly, and discreetly. Now if she can just stop smirking evilly all the time.

Episode 3 timeline:

Kohata gives love letter to Takkun. (5:00)
BGS reaches out to Kohata's Alter-ego. (9:25)
Letter is exposed. (14:29)
lol, I don't even know what you are trying to prove. You asked for an explanation which would make sense of the story, and I gave you one. Why are you nitpicking against it? Unless you think that your own explanation of the story makes sense after all, in which case we could agree to disagree and there's no further need for this conversation.

There's nothing suggesting that Saya was responsible for Kohata's letter being revealed except your theory that Saya is deliberately targeting Mato's weaknesses (which we already know doesn't make sense because Saya is against the awakening of I. Black Rock Shooter). So why don't you just accept that Saya is not deliberately trying to cause grief for Mato.

Also keep in mind that things like Mato discovering that Yuu isn't real have nothing to do with Saya. The only dumb thing Saya did was to try to choke Mato, but we already know that that was because Saya was thinking about killing her, not trying to awaken IBRS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Yet, in the end Saya approached Kohata with some mind-trolling powers, which unsurprisingly changes nothing about my main points.
Saya did not approach Kohata. Kohata approached Saya. Remember the story.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-11, 22:06   Link #997
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol, I don't even know what you are trying to prove. You asked for an explanation which would make sense of the story, and I gave you one. Why are you nitpicking against it? Unless you think that your own explanation of the story makes sense after all, in which case we could agree to disagree and there's no further need for this conversation.
Agreed. Judging by your response I can safely assume our debate has reached its end. This entire time I'm arguing with you is to highlight how ridiculous the story, the characters, and the plot development is. Why some people have a hard time swallowing it. I pointed out why your story is has some gaping holes with evidence I presented to the contrary and now you say I'm nitpicking. Well then there is nothing much more to say then.

Also, irony much? What I posted a while back.

Quote:
Well that's where we're going to have to agree to disagree. You say this level of torment isn't enough to cause Mato to snap, I say it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There's nothing suggesting that Saya was responsible for Kohata's letter being revealed except your theory that Saya is deliberately targeting Mato's weaknesses (which we already know doesn't make sense because Saya is against the awakening of I. Black Rock Shooter). So why don't you just accept that Saya is notdeliberately trying to cause grief for Mato.
*sigh*
The issue for who posted the letter is a minor point at best. You and dan-heron are making a straw man out of it. In the end, Saya mind-trolled Kohata. As you said, it just so happens the letter was exposed. Saya simply just took advantage of it. This allowed BRS to destroy Kohata's puppy love with Takkun. Hence, why I stated that Saya indirectly sent Kohata's alter ego to be destroyed by BRS based on this picture again.

Also, really? Do I have to bring this picture out again? Maybe this quote will refresh your memory as to why I don't think that way.

Weakness? I see you haven't bothered reading what I wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Saya never deliberately attempted to scare Mato. Saya has been tempted to kill Mato because that would permanently get rid of BRS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Also keep in mind that things like Mato discovering that Yuu isn't real have nothing to do with Saya. The only dumb thing Saya did was to try to choke Mato, but we already know that that was because Saya was thinking about killing her, not trying to awaken IBRS.

Saya did not approach Kohata. Kohata approached Saya. Remember the story.

Right. Because I said Yuu disappearing was a some sort of shenanigan from Saya. Not because I was pointing out that Mato was going to snap from all her stresses built up from Saya, Yomi, and Yuu. Nope, that was entirely my main argument.

I'm not naive enough to think that single choke scene is enough to awaken BRS, which is specifically why I highlighted the amount of shit that Mato has been going through, by framing the context and perspective, that may culminate into IBRS awakening or cause Mato to experience a great mental burden.

Uh-huh. That makes complete sense, because Saya was just bored and no better reason than to mind troll Kohata after that event. She could have left Kohata alone, but no, Saya decided in the end to go all teary-eyed and walk to Kohata who was sitting on the sofa and do some funky mind-trolling on her. Nope, it's Kohata's fault she was mind-trolled by Saya, because Kohata approached Saya.
__________________
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-12, 00:21   Link #998
xizro345
King's Justice
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The same is true of BRS. This is not a happy story, and this is reinforced over and over again. However the fantasy is essential, as it drives most of the character interactions, and allows the writers to introduce and expand on themes that don't come up in standard drama. It provides both the setting and the metaphor for the questions raised to the audience.
Except they fail miserably. The story is an incoherent mess, and the last episode proves it pretty clearly. We're not at GC-levels of insanity in the writing, but it's quite apparent that the show has a lot of issues in the direction. Not only Saya's portrayal, but even BRS's one had to be done differently if they wanted to push the angle they're showing now. Instead we get overblown drama to complement the over the top fights and some comical moments that shouldn't have been comical.
IN the end, Dark Fantasy or not (I personally think it's a stretch), the show is suffering from lack of episodes and terrible writing.
xizro345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-12, 01:07   Link #999
dan-heron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Elestia, now you're just trying a little bit too hard and just coming as if you were desperately grasping at something.

maybe it'd be better to just calm down for a bit.
dan-heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-12, 02:11   Link #1000
Guido
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 34
Ok. I have my suspicions about Yuu possibly going to the other world by herself.

If that's the case, then the Yuu we've seeing in the real world is the other self.

Then, I assume the one who is fighting BRS right now is actually....
Spoiler:
Guido is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, slice of life

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.