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Old 2012-03-12, 02:25   Link #1001
dan-heron
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that's the most common theory, Guido.

It may explain why Rock is able to fight on even grounds with her... that is if Mato remains still trapped within Insane by the next episode, which may or may not be the case since the preview didn't give any hint of what is happening in the real world.
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Old 2012-03-12, 02:53   Link #1002
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Agreed. Judging by your response I can safely assume our debate has reached its end. This entire time I'm arguing with you is to highlight how ridiculous the story, the characters, and the plot development is. Why some people have a hard time swallowing it. I pointed out why your story is has some gaping holes with evidence I presented to the contrary and now you say I'm nitpicking. Well then there is nothing much more to say then.
I'm sorry, I thought what you were actually doing was trying to understand the story. Y'know, in order to make sense of the plot and actually enjoy the anime, like you asked. Seems like you're more interested in "proving" how ridiculous the anime is and gaining license to just mindlessly bash it. If that is really your intention, then yeah, no thanks, that's the end of this conversation.

You apparently forgot: you requested "someone explain the story to me", and that is why I began posting. I did not post to try to debate with you. I posted to give an explanation of the plot/characters which would allow you to follow the rest of the story (at least as much as the rest of us) if you wanted to. For example, I explained the fact that STR and Yuu switched places, an established idea which you were not previously aware of.

If you're not willing to even accept the possibility that the plot is coherent and not ridiculous, and would rather get into a stupid debate trying to "prove" that it doesn't make sense, you might as well just drop the fucking show. If there are viewers who are having a hard time following the story, there are multiple posters here who do feel like they have figured things out and are willing to pass on their interpretations. Nobody, however, has the time to get in a pointless pissing match over "this story sucks, it is completely ridiculous".

Quote:
*sigh*
The issue for who posted the letter is a minor point at best. You and dan-heron are making a straw man out of it. In the end, Saya mind-trolled Kohata. As you said, it just so happens the letter was exposed. Saya simply just took advantage of it. This allowed BRS to destroy Kohata's puppy love with Takkun. Hence, why I stated that Saya indirectly sent Kohata's alter ego to be destroyed by BRS based on this picture again.
This is not about a fucking straw man. This is about logical conclusions:
- Saya wants to kill BRS
- Otherworld personas grow stronger when their human counterparts experience pain
- Therefore, Saya wants to maximize the pain of various people around her while avoiding causing pain to Mato, who's the counterpart of BRS.

According to this obvious logical structure (if you don't want to accept it, just drop the fucking show):
- the reason Saya targeted Kohata was not to give Mato pain, it was just convenient
- BRS killing Kohata's persona before Saya could make it strong enough to fight BRS would be completely pointless for Saya's goals, therefore Saya did not send Kohata against her.

Quote:
Also, really? Do I have to bring this picture out again? Maybe this quote will refresh your memory as to why I don't think that way.
I've been ignoring the aforementioned picture because that picture is retarded. I and other posters have already stated numerous times that Saya was not "pretend-killing" Mato, she was (thinking about) actually killing Mato. You can argue that it was a dumb/thoughtless move from Saya because it freaked Mato out and ruined their relationship (however, still not anywhere near enough to cause the awakening of IBRS). However, the reason why Saya did it has been blatantly revealed to be because killing Mato would have achieved Saya's primary objective, i.e. getting rid of BRS. Thus, it makes sense for Saya's character, and the show is internally consistent. If you don't want to accept this explanation, drop the fucking show.

Quote:

Right. Because I said Yuu disappearing was a some sort of shenanigan from Saya. Not because I was pointing out that Mato was going to snap from all her stresses built up from Saya, Yomi, and Yuu. Nope, that was entirely my main argument.

I'm not naive enough to think that single choke scene is enough to awaken BRS, which is specifically why I highlighted the amount of shit that Mato has been going through, by framing the context and perspective, that may culminate into IBRS awakening or cause Mato to experience a great mental burden.
If you're not naive enough to think that a single choke scene is enough to awaken IBRS, then why are you trying to complain that Saya's character does not make sense or is not consistent. Saya has no control over what happens with Yuu (Mato's realization was completely unpredictable). Saya also has to target Yomi because she is one of the few people who have a developed otherworld persona. Thus, the way that Saya dealt with the various stresses on Mato all make sense and are internally consistent. In particular, because Saya was hoping/expecting for DM/Yomi to defeat BRS/Mato, there was no reason for Saya to assume that her own actions would lead to the awakening of IBRS (which they didn't). Instead, the trigger for IBRS appearing was clearly a result of the extreme and unpredictable actions of STR/real-world Yuu.

If you have any further problems, (try to) figure them out yourself. This is a more than reasonable basis to eventually reach the conclusion of "I have made sense of this story". If you have no interest in ever coming to the conclusion that "BRS makes sense" in the first place, drop the fucking show.
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Old 2012-03-12, 04:08   Link #1003
Gohan78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
- Saya wants to kill BRS
There is one glaring plot hole that nobody addressed yet. Why the heck didn't BGS join DM in the fight against BRS??? She could have tried to backstab her, instead she only observed the battle from a distance.

I really wanted to like this show but the storytelling is just bad.
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Old 2012-03-12, 04:29   Link #1004
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
There is one glaring plot hole that nobody addressed yet. Why the heck didn't BGS join DM in the fight against BRS??? She could have tried to backstab her, instead she only observed the battle from a distance.

I really wanted to like this show but the storytelling is just bad.
cant believe I forgot that one *facepalm*
yeah, if at that point saya/BGS wanted to get rid of BRS, why didnt she intervene just like in the scene with chariot?
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Old 2012-03-12, 05:30   Link #1005
Elestia
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm sorry, I thought what you were actually doing was trying to understand the story. Y'know, in order to make sense of the plot and actually enjoy the anime, like you asked. Seems like you're more interested in "proving" how ridiculous the anime is and gaining license to just mindlessly bash it. If that is really your intention, then yeah, no thanks, that's the end of this conversation.
Bashing the show? I praised how wonderful the action scenes were in the other world. I liked the innovative use of CG was for the otherworld. The only thing I am unsatisfied with is the story and the real life characters. How do you come to the conclusion that I am "bashing the show", when the entire premise of BRS is *gasp* about Black Rock Shooter? When I said we should "agree to disagree" about the character's behavior in the very beginning you still decided to explain it to me. You posted a lengthy reply to a point that should have well left alone, because it was simply up to our own perspectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You apparently forgot: you requested "someone explain the story to me", and that is why I began posting. I did not post to try to debate with you. I posted to give an explanation of the plot/characters which would allow you to follow the rest of the story (at least as much as the rest of us) if you wanted to. For example, I explained the fact that STR and Yuu switched places, an established idea which you were not previously aware of.
And I left that point alone after you cleared it up to me. I also pointed to you about Yuu's quote which you were not aware of either. So like it or not I am also enlightening you about some things from the show as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you're not willing to even accept the possibility that the plot is coherent and not ridiculous, and would rather get into a stupid debate trying to "prove" that it doesn't make sense, you might as well just drop the fucking show. If there are viewers who are having a hard time following the story, there are multiple posters here who do feel like they have figured things out and are willing to pass on their interpretations. Nobody, however, has the time to get in a pointless pissing match over "this story sucks, it is completely ridiculous".
Really? Cause you seem to have the time to humor this so called "pissing match" even when you stated we had nothing else to discuss.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is not about a fucking straw man. This is about logical conclusions:
- Saya wants to kill BRS
- Otherworld personas grow stronger when their human counterparts experience pain
- Therefore, Saya wants to maximize the pain of various people around her while avoiding causing pain to Mato, who's the counterpart of BRS.
Are you sure Mato is not in pain? I think she was feeling some pain when Yomi was making some hair bracelets and painting really lovely self-portraits of Mato. Or how bewildered Mato was when Saya placed her hands around her neck, as if about to choke her, and said "you should die for Yomi's sake". There was some slight tightening noises going on in that scene. Some gasps of surprise from Mato as well. Oh, and both Mato and Saya's entire body were shaking too. Then we have Saya release her grip and smile at her like nothing out of the ordinary happened. If it were in my case and not surprisingly what Mato did as well, she got the hell out of there as soon as she could. How do these actions give you the impression that Saya's goal is not at odds with her actions because it seems pretty apparent that Mato herself didn't think Saya was just "thinking about it".

Do you not see the contradictions in your logic with these events?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
According to this obvious logical structure (if you don't want to accept it, just drop the fucking show):
- the reason Saya targeted Kohata was not to give Mato pain, it was just convenient
- BRS killing Kohata's persona before Saya could make it strong enough to fight BRS would be completely pointless for Saya's goals, therefore Saya did not send Kohata against her.
I'm sorry, but that does not follow. Saya has the same knowledge about the other world as Yuu, so she would know how the alter-egos would react to their host's grief. Saya would know that Kohata's problem would eventually spill over to Mato, (again keeping tabs on her through those "counseling sessions"). Once Mato became concerned, it wouldn't take long before BRS would start appearing soon after. In this case, their relationship is that they were in the same basketball club. Pretty hard to miss for someone you are keeping an eye out on. Saying that Saya did not know about it means Kohata's alter ego was raised to be cut down almost immediately by BRS, which as you said does not make sense. Yet, that is exactly what Saya did, hence why her actions do not make sense. Why would Saya go through all the trouble of raising Kohata if she should very well know that BRS would come after her in the very near future due to Mato's close relationship with Kohata?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I've been ignoring the aforementioned picture because that picture is retarded. I and other posters have already stated numerous times that Saya was not "pretend-killing" Mato, she was (thinking about) [I]actually killing Mato[/I]. You can argue that it was a dumb/thoughtless move from Saya because it freaked Mato out and ruined their relationship (however, still not anywhere near enough to cause the awakening of IBRS). However, the reason why Saya did it has been blatantly revealed to be because killing Mato would have achieved Saya's primary objective, i.e. getting rid of BRS. Thus, it makes sense for Saya's character, and the show is internally consistent. If you don't want to accept this explanation, drop the fucking show.
I'm starting to wonder if that scene has gotten you so far into denial you can't tell difference between a hostile threat and simply "thinking about it".

But do tell me something, at what point does putting your hands on your students in a fashion to strangle someone does it constitute simply "thinking about it"? If I take a knife and bring it dangerously close to someone's jugular does that still count as simply "thinking about it". If I said "you really should die" to the person does it not give intent? If make some horizontal motions around his neck, does it not make the man sweat in terror? Would the person think it was just simply harmless fun and nothing to worry about? How about when the knife is simply only a few centimeters from piercing their own throat? Would the person in question take that action as a threat or attempt on his life, giving that he is not a psychic?

Mato is a middle school girl who is taking on personal problems way beyond her age. When you look at a person's mental health you look at it holistically. Meaning, everything bad things that happens to a person builds up stress if not released, else it just builds up. If you build enough pressure anyone will snap eventually. So when I see Mato having problems with Kagari, Yomi, Yuu, and to some degree Kohata they all add up. Considering these are not your ordinary problems the magnitude is likely to be much larger than any mundane problems we face everyday. However, none have those issues have been truly resolved and continue to be a problem weighing on Mato's mind. She stated herself that simply ignoring the problem or forgetting it will come to bite you back in the ass sooner or later. I really do applaud Mato for handling these circumstances so well, but there is a limit. A limit Saya does not want to push. Again, my own view. Probably won't agree with me. Fine. I won't say anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you're not naive enough to think that a single choke scene is enough to awaken IBRS, then why are you trying to complain that Saya's character does not make sense or is not consistent. Saya has no control over what happens with Yuu (Mato's realization was completely unpredictable). Saya also has to target Yomi because she is one of the few people who have a developed otherworld persona. Thus, the way that Saya dealt with the various stresses on Mato all make sense and are internally consistent. In particular, because Saya was hoping/expecting for DM/Yomi to defeat BRS/Mato, there was no reason for Saya to assume that her own actions would lead to the awakening of IBRS (which they didn't). Instead, the trigger for IBRS appearing was clearly a result of the extreme and unpredictable actions of STR/real-world Yuu.
Because Saya is keeping tabs on Mato's progression throughout the entire series? She would need to gauge Mato's overall mental health from various stress points she is currently enduring. When I said I am not naive enough to think one event would cause Mato to degrade seriously I meant it. However, I also continued on the point that it is not just "one" event that is causing Mato harm, but several high stress areas in her life. You just stated that Saya intentions are not to give Mato pain or else IBRS would wake. Would Saya, the school counselor, really be so silly not take into account all the stress Mato has been building up and not just her own? But again, you believe that there is zero chance this will cause Mato enough pain to awaken BRS so it makes sense to you and I say there is a cumulative risk that make Saya's actions seem reckless and stupid.

I felt that the scene where Mato was trying to remember Yuu would have dealt an large mental blow if she wasn't there. Since this happened at the episode five, the toll on Mato's mind must have been rather significant. Nothing like having one's hope turn into despair. Again, my take on the scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you have any further problems, (try to) figure them out yourself. This is a more than reasonable basis to eventually reach the conclusion of "I have made sense of this story". If you have no interest in ever coming to the conclusion that "BRS makes sense" in the first place, drop the fucking show.
Yeah, I've started to give up hopes of trying to make sense of the story. Really, there is too many unstable girls, melodrama, and hard to swallow developments in the past six episodes. But that doesn't mean its enough to offset the awesome action scenes in the other world. So I'll continue to keep watching it just for that then.
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Old 2012-03-12, 05:38   Link #1006
SilverSyko
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Okay guys, I think it's time to end this. It's starting to get quite ridiculous.

BRS is not a perfect series alright? The fact of the matter is that nothing is perfect, but sometimes we need to give it some leeway despite its problems and focus on what we actually enjoy about it.

For example, I'm sure everyone can agree the animation and action scenes for this show are impressive right?

Let's not turn this topic into one huge argument. That just makes it unpleasant for everybody.
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Old 2012-03-12, 09:04   Link #1007
dan-heron
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guys please, listen to Syko. This has already gone for long enough and it just seem it's working to stress you both.
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Old 2012-03-12, 09:35   Link #1008
Solace
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I have to agree. It's for the best if you both simply agree to disagree and walk away for a bit. The show will end....bad feelings, those tend to linger.
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Old 2012-03-12, 12:58   Link #1009
Lukeman1884
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Has anyone considered the possibility that Saya herself has some sort of mental disorder? Maybe some sort of split-personality which would explain the jarring difference between how she acts in the first few eps compared to how she is in ep 6?

Also, is it confirmed that the people who've had their other selves killed actually "lose" their memories? Perhaps they just get them repressed? It makes more sense in the psychological aspect of things, and makes it alot easier to get a "happy" resolution in this anime.
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Old 2012-03-12, 13:08   Link #1010
dan-heron
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not really. What happened in the sixth episode is that she just had her world destroyed around her and she realized there's nothing she can do about it other than pray for a miracle. Mato and Insane effectively broke her spirit.

Imagine it as Mato coming up to her, slapping her and then telling her everything that she's been working for half of her life has been for nothing and there's nothing she can do to change that.

As for the memories, hmm it's a bit iffy to tell. Kohata forgot completely about Takkun, but Kagari still had hints of memory that told her that Yomi had been somehow important for her. Kagari however can't really recall anything good that Yomi could have done to make her so important, so Kagari simply opted to break ties to the girl who was too clingy for Kagari's tastes
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Old 2012-03-12, 13:19   Link #1011
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Lukeman1884 View Post
Has anyone considered the possibility that Saya herself has some sort of mental disorder? Maybe some sort of split-personality which would explain the jarring difference between how she acts in the first few eps compared to how she is in ep 6?
But did she really change that much? I personally don't think so. For instance, when BRS killed Kohata's other-self, Saya was clearly upset about it. That's consistent with her decision not to kill Mato in episode 6.

What I mean is, it's obvious she's willing to do a lot for the purpose of protecting Yuu (the one trapped in the other world) but she still has enough of a moral compass to be upset when someone got hurt as a result of what she's doing. I think her character has been depicted that way from the start.
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Old 2012-03-12, 14:04   Link #1012
dan-heron
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hmm, there's been an update over the official site. The "awesome" translator I used couldn't make heads or tails out of it. I take it is about the release of the bluray?

http://6109.jp/brs-news/?blog=254401

EDIT:

actually, I think they are saying the last episode will be the 22 instead of friday, but can't really tell
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Old 2012-03-12, 15:07   Link #1013
xizro345
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AFAIK it's talking about a Nico NIco special of episodes 1-7 but I just skimmed through it so I may be wrong.
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Old 2012-03-12, 15:38   Link #1014
Spinell
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In Ep5 Saya might have not wanted Mato dead but wanted to get the idea to BRS that she should sacrifice herself to DM.
But that didn't work. I think that unlike the others that BRS was largely independent from Mato (aside from a few dreams). None of Mato's worries or feelings seem to carry over to BRS unlike with the other alter egos.
Saya thought that BRS killing spree was mostly Mato's influence but it was not. If just the otherworld scenes are watched it was a logical course of action that BRS took.
I think that was the mistake she was referring to, she herself made BRS shooting everything that was moving and why she now considers Mato innocent.
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Old 2012-03-12, 16:13   Link #1015
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Ok - caught up to ep 5 at the moment, and will watch ep 6 later on today.

Hafta agree with some of the comments in particular how the series is too melodramatic at times (although to be fair I remember what I was like when I was a teen and also had my moments of emo too), but overall is enjoyable. For me I would like it if a few more eps were allocated to it and the pace could be less "rushed" - personal taste, of course.

In any event I liked what I saw up through ep 5 and am looking forward to the "final showdown".
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Old 2012-03-12, 16:45   Link #1016
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Not to get involved with all the arguments happening here but can someone tell me if I'm right? I'm trying to piece together the basic plot of the show, and to me it seems like the counselor is just trying to protect the other world (for some reason that I might have missed?).
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Old 2012-03-12, 17:27   Link #1017
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Dunno, first time that the fantasy world got decent screen-time... and it didn't look that good

The storytelling is also a bloody mess, no focus at all, it's like Guilty Gear, Horizon, Death Note, etc. Nice ideas/setting/art, terrible execution

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I have to agree. It's for the best if you both simply agree to disagree and walk away for a bit. The show will end....bad feelings, those tend to linger.
I whole-heartily disagree, their dialogue is rather interesting to read.
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Old 2012-03-12, 17:42   Link #1018
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Horizon and Death Note have good execution. Well death note half-good and horizon from like episode 6 onwards it starts making sense.
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Old 2012-03-12, 22:14   Link #1019
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@felix: To be on the same page, count the first half of Horizon, and the second for Death Note as my references above... I disagree for the both other halves, but this is not the thread to discuss it
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Old 2012-03-13, 00:20   Link #1020
Asuras
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So, can someone clearly explain what is going on for me?

From what I'm getting, the Otherworld individuals take on the pains of the real-world girls, but become "awakened" when they receive a huge amount of grief. Saya tries to induce this change so that they can defeat Mato/BRS to protect the Otherworld?

So why is BRS even a danger? Why did BRS try to save DM when held back by Chariot, only to kill her in the awakened state?

What is this deal with Yuu/Strength?
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