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Old 2012-03-09, 21:08   Link #3361
Toku
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To be honest, I think that there was not a single time in EP5 where someone cheated. It was always within the bounds of the rules. As long as you understand how things work you should be able to see that.

On the other hand,
Spoiler for EP6:
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Old 2012-03-09, 22:19   Link #3362
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Quote:
To be honest, I think that there was not a single time in EP5 where someone cheated. It was always within the bounds of the rules. As long as you understand how things work you should be able to see that.
Well yea, everything is in the bounds of the rules if the Gamemaster is one of the people who's facilitating the people at fault.
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Old 2012-03-10, 15:09   Link #3363
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I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.
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Old 2012-03-10, 15:53   Link #3364
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.
No she never solved EP1-4... i still remember Bern ordering her to solve EP1-4 after the "executions" in the EP5TP.
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Old 2012-03-10, 20:38   Link #3365
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.
Well, the requisite for the game was to solve ALL the riddles presented by the witch side, not just the ones connected to the murder because the point is to deny the witch and if there's a riddle that can't be solved with a human explanation you won't manage to deny the witch fully.
However the game master isn't really caring about this so that riddle went somehow forgotten...
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Old 2012-03-11, 04:13   Link #3366
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the requisite for the game was to solve ALL the riddles presented by the witch side, not just the ones connected to the murder because the point is to deny the witch and if there's a riddle that can't be solved with a human explanation you won't manage to deny the witch fully.
However the game master isn't really caring about this so that riddle went somehow forgotten...
Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

She never was present, when this happened. She never could "investigate" this case. Maybe even no one ever told her about this on the gameboard.

Also denying the witch is not her role. That was Battler's Anti-fantasy stance. Erika has a mystery stance and her goal is to solve the murder case. She only has to deny the witch, if she is in her way.
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Old 2012-03-11, 10:27   Link #3367
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

She never was present, when this happened. She never could "investigate" this case. Maybe even no one ever told her about this on the gameboard.

Also denying the witch is not her role. That was Battler's Anti-fantasy stance. Erika has a mystery stance and her goal is to solve the murder case. She only has to deny the witch, if she is in her way.
PieceErika didn't need to investigate it but Meta Erika should. Battler too was asked to offer solutions for things he didn't witness/couldn't investigate on like why Kirye went to search for food in Ep 3.

The original game was about denying the witch, solving all her riddles. It's said in Ep 6 also.

Quote:
"The human side must crush all of the witch's riddles, whereas the witch side need only crush the human's theories once. ......Don't you find that unfair? So, I decided to have it be even."
In Ep 5 however they conveniently overlooked this and one of the riddles the witch side proposed went conveniently overlooked plus Lambda accepted a solution she could have denied in red as it wasn't the right one.

Basically Erika was handed the victory even through she didn't fully gained it.

It's not forbidden by the game as Beato too wanted to hand the victory to Battler in EP 4 even though his theories were wrong... but it surely feels like cheating.
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Old 2012-03-12, 15:16   Link #3368
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Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?
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Old 2012-03-12, 18:45   Link #3369
Toku
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?
She seems to be swayed when she witnesses the 'certain determination' of others. It's possible that, simply because Battler finally got his shit together and started pursuing Beatrice's truth so seriously, she decided to grant him her favor for a bit.

Spoiler for Lambda's Memoirs & EP8:


This is the most logical conclusion to reach, I think, but for that very reason it doesn't satisfy me...
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Old 2012-03-12, 19:00   Link #3370
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?
Lambda also likely wanted to reward Battler's hard efforts to understand Beato and solve her game. She's the sort of witch who likes to reward hard work.
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Old 2012-03-12, 20:59   Link #3371
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True. In the end though, allowing Battler to continue the game at the end of this Ep was merely a whim on her part, which was the point I tried to make.
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Old 2012-11-01, 10:07   Link #3372
DoubtGin
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Can you guys tell me which "answers" we got in this chapter. I've finished EP5 two weeks ago and I've already forgotten parts of it. I know the Chiru arcs aren't solely "answer arcs" but we still got some crucial information, didn't we?

- Natsuhi and Krauss adopted a child, but along with the maid looking for it, they both fell down a cliff and apparently died. But it looks like the child survived?! and is now seeking revenge. To be honest, I thought that child was Battler for a second, but I guess that wouldnt make any sense.
- Not sure about this one, but I think this is the first time it's confirmed that Kinzo is actually dead and Natsuhi and friends are covering it up?
- Natsuhi is not the culprit.

I haven't read anything beyond EP5 (besides the beginning of EP6).

Spoiler:


Thanks in advance.
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Old 2012-11-01, 11:48   Link #3373
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Yea, you seem to have gotten the important parts so far. Don't worry about that marriage scene, it's kind of like Erika's "Natsuhi, you are the culprit" announcement. It's sort of a "flash forward" to the end of the episode.
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Old 2012-11-07, 23:31   Link #3374
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Originally Posted by DoubtGin View Post
Can you guys tell me which "answers" we got in this chapter. I've finished EP5 two weeks ago and I've already forgotten parts of it. I know the Chiru arcs aren't solely "answer arcs" but we still got some crucial information, didn't we?
I think in terms of plot mechanics, you should've picked up on the fact that the corpses of the first twilight never moved after they died. Which means that they died after their 'bodies' disappeared. That's a pretty big clue and is basically an answer. Or was for us at that time...

There's a lot of hidden clues in the red, that you can't get just by reading them or thinking of them alone, but it's feels so spoilerish to go back and read them now... 8)
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Old 2013-07-18, 09:36   Link #3375
The Butcher
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Finished Episode 5 in the manga. I'll tell ya man, lots of mixed feels I was having in the end. Out of all the fiction I've read/watched/played Beatrice's death....good God man was it touching. Seeing Erika get served was cool to. Battler probably made the biggest comeback I've ever seen.


Spoiler for Knox was cool to in the Court of Illusions:


Natsuhi is now my favorite Ushiromiya by miles. Battler coming in first & Ange in second. I'll start Episode 6's manga some time later.

Though so far Episode 4 is still my favorite episode of Umineko. 5 is second though.
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Old 2013-07-18, 10:28   Link #3376
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Have you read the VN as well, or are you experiencing it primarily through the manga? I ask because I'm curious if there was any interesting extra information in the manga (as there apparently has been for some of the other episodes), but it'd sort of require you have knowledge of both to be able to say whether anything was added/altered.
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Old 2013-07-18, 11:17   Link #3377
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Have you read the VN as well, or are you experiencing it primarily through the manga? I ask because I'm curious if there was any interesting extra information in the manga (as there apparently has been for some of the other episodes), but it'd sort of require you have knowledge of both to be able to say whether anything was added/altered.
Having bought the whole bunch up till now a few weeks ago, I can finally say something to this too (felt like everybody else already read them).

EP5 has not that much extra content, actually none at all, it's just a lot of visual clarification (if it really was all run by Ryukishi as he always claims...but having afterwords by him in the manga kinda makes it seem legit).

Spoiler for Episode 5 Complete:
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Old 2013-07-18, 11:25   Link #3378
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Have you read the VN as well, or are you experiencing it primarily through the manga? I ask because I'm curious if there was any interesting extra information in the manga (as there apparently has been for some of the other episodes), but it'd sort of require you have knowledge of both to be able to say whether anything was added/altered.
Well, the EP 5 manga has some slight spoilers the visual novel didn't have but they're more visual than written and I wouldn't really consider them as new hints. For example there's a hint to Erika's boyfriend and also, when Battler said he reached the truth we can see young Battler making a promise with someone (they're holding pinkies). We can't see who that someone is but in the following panel Battler isn't a child anymore and he's holding the pinkie with Beato. Also when he said his first love started to date someone else there's the silouette of George and Shannon.
When he claims he can show a corpse that's Kinzo, Kinzo's body is burned, which can be viewed as an implication that's really what had happened to Kinzo's body.
Oh and Dlanor deducted that when Battler claimed to have seen Kinzo he was lying on purpose which I don't seem to remember was clearly stated in the novel.

Honestly I found easier to follow Ep 5 manga version than the visual novel as the jump between the various layers of meta was clearer in more or less all the stages of EP 5.

It's a while I don't read EP 5 novel version though so I might have missed something.

Ah, no idea if it's a hint to Ep 8 future developments but when Battler, after the trial tries reasoning things again his hair are coloured differently, making them completely black as if he was a different person.
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Old 2013-07-18, 11:35   Link #3379
The Butcher
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I plan on experiencing Umineko primarily through the manga.

I plan on playing the PS3 VN soon after finishing the manga. My brother showed me a couple scenes of the VN . For example, I played Natsuhi's monologue in the VN becuase apparently they cut out the first half in the manga. Also showed me where Battler got dem manly balls back in the Tea Party of Episode 2

Then he showed me where Ange in Episode 3 talked the Eva after the Rokkenjima incident in the hospital. Ange's death in 4 all the way to Battler challenging Beatrice the final time(read the rest of the fight in the manga), Knox's crazy scenes from Episode 5, and the finale of Episode 5. I still read the manga version, which I considered just as good believe it or not. AT LEAST FROM WHAT I'VE PLAYED OF THE VN!

Though Ange's scene in Episode 3 owned the scene in the manga. Also Battler getting dem balls back in Episode 2 was better in the VN. Natsuhi's monologue was better in the VN to.

Last edited by The Butcher; 2013-07-18 at 11:45.
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:44   Link #3380
Sauzer
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Finished ep 5

For almost the entire ep5 it seemed kinda mediocre. Then it was good at the trial. Then it became epic at the "????"
Seiroulsy the best "????" yet!

Soo awsome infact that instead of trying to solve it I actually just want to read and find out what happens next

And who knew - Krauss turns out to be a chump with nothing going for him than a good poker face

But one thing I want to get out is the goddamn broken Cuckoo clock:


"Repeatitmymaster!" "Repeatitmymaster!" "Repeatitmymaster!" DIE!!!

Seriously so goodamn annoying.
To start off Erika warps the entire air around her and all Ushiroiyas start to act so unnaturaly around her.
She solved the epitaph, good for her. Except she wasn't the one who solved it - Bern did.
And the whole ep5 murder case was made so patheticly easy. A child could blame Natsuhi. Try solving ep2!
The whole case got handed to Erika on a silver platter and she acts like she's the new Einstein.
Best yet - the one truly challenging mystery she loses her sanity over, she just ignores like it never happened.
I also liked how Dlanor used Knox's rules to crush Battler, while Erika ***** all over those exact rules
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