[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Toku]

To be honest, I think that there was not a single time in EP5 where someone cheated. It was always within the bounds of the rules. As long as you understand how things work you should be able to see that.

On the other hand,

Spoiler for EP6:

Dlanor's seal on blue truths in EP6 was cheating. But it's pretty much the only instance of actual cheating that I can think of.

Mind you, it was perfectly legal for Beato to get around that seal by creating a new puzzle. After all, she wasn't using the blue truth. It's the actual seal itself, that shouldn't have been allowed.

[AuraTwilight]

To be honest, I think that there was not a single time in EP5 where someone cheated. It was always within the bounds of the rules. As long as you understand how things work you should be able to see that.

Well yea, everything is in the bounds of the rules if the Gamemaster is one of the people who's facilitating the people at fault.

[Drifloon]

I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.

No she never solved EP1-4... i still remember Bern ordering her to solve EP1-4 after the "executions" in the EP5TP.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I always assumed Erika solved the knock riddle some time after the Court of Illusions since she was said to have also solved E1-4 with Natsuhi as culprit (I'd like to have seen that for E2...). It wasn't necessary to solve it for the trial itself since that was specifically regarding the culprit of the murders and the knocking/placing of the letter wasn't really a crime.

Well, the requisite for the game was to solve ALL the riddles presented by the witch side, not just the ones connected to the murder because the point is to deny the witch and if there's a riddle that can't be solved with a human explanation you won't manage to deny the witch fully.
However the game master isn't really caring about this so that riddle went somehow forgotten...

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, the requisite for the game was to solve ALL the riddles presented by the witch side, not just the ones connected to the murder because the point is to deny the witch and if there's a riddle that can't be solved with a human explanation you won't manage to deny the witch fully.
However the game master isn't really caring about this so that riddle went somehow forgotten...

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

She never was present, when this happened. She never could "investigate" this case. Maybe even no one ever told her about this on the gameboard.

Also denying the witch is not her role. That was Battler's Anti-fantasy stance. Erika has a mystery stance and her goal is to solve the murder case. She only has to deny the witch, if she is in her way.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

She never was present, when this happened. She never could "investigate" this case. Maybe even no one ever told her about this on the gameboard.

Also denying the witch is not her role. That was Battler's Anti-fantasy stance. Erika has a mystery stance and her goal is to solve the murder case. She only has to deny the witch, if she is in her way.

PieceErika didn't need to investigate it but Meta Erika should. Battler too was asked to offer solutions for things he didn't witness/couldn't investigate on like why Kirye went to search for food in Ep 3.

The original game was about denying the witch, solving all her riddles. It's said in Ep 6 also.

"The human side must crush all of the witch's riddles, whereas the witch side need only crush the human's theories once. ......Don't you find that unfair? So, I decided to have it be even."

In Ep 5 however they conveniently overlooked this and one of the riddles the witch side proposed went conveniently overlooked plus Lambda accepted a solution she could have denied in red as it wasn't the right one.

Basically Erika was handed the victory even through she didn't fully gained it.

It's not forbidden by the game as Beato too wanted to hand the victory to Battler in EP 4 even though his theories were wrong... but it surely feels like cheating.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?

[Toku]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?

She seems to be swayed when she witnesses the 'certain determination' of others. It's possible that, simply because Battler finally got his shit together and started pursuing Beatrice's truth so seriously, she decided to grant him her favor for a bit.

Spoiler for Lambda's Memoirs & EP8:

After all, that's why she started supporting Beatrice in the first place, and why she stopped supporting Beatrice as well. It's also why she supported Ange in EP8.

This is the most logical conclusion to reach, I think, but for that very reason it doesn't satisfy me...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Yeah, and plus as long as Lambda was being entertained, she didn't really care one way or the other. Why did she decide to allow Battler to continue after the ??? if she wasn't being entertained?

Lambda also likely wanted to reward Battler's hard efforts to understand Beato and solve her game. She's the sort of witch who likes to reward hard work.

[RandomAvatarFan]

True. In the end though, allowing Battler to continue the game at the end of this Ep was merely a whim on her part, which was the point I tried to make.

[DoubtGin]

Can you guys tell me which "answers" we got in this chapter. I've finished EP5 two weeks ago and I've already forgotten parts of it. I know the Chiru arcs aren't solely "answer arcs" but we still got some crucial information, didn't we?

- Natsuhi and Krauss adopted a child, but along with the maid looking for it, they both fell down a cliff and apparently died. But it looks like the child survived?! and is now seeking revenge. To be honest, I thought that child was Battler for a second, but I guess that wouldnt make any sense.
- Not sure about this one, but I think this is the first time it's confirmed that Kinzo is actually dead and Natsuhi and friends are covering it up?
- Natsuhi is not the culprit.

I haven't read anything beyond EP5 (besides the beginning of EP6).

Spoiler:

Speaking of that, I was quite confused about the marriage scene because it somehow didn't fit the ending of EP5 for me.

Thanks in advance.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, you seem to have gotten the important parts so far. Don't worry about that marriage scene, it's kind of like Erika's "Natsuhi, you are the culprit" announcement. It's sort of a "flash forward" to the end of the episode.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by DoubtGin

Can you guys tell me which "answers" we got in this chapter. I've finished EP5 two weeks ago and I've already forgotten parts of it. I know the Chiru arcs aren't solely "answer arcs" but we still got some crucial information, didn't we?

I think in terms of plot mechanics, you should've picked up on the fact that the corpses of the first twilight never moved after they died. Which means that they died after their 'bodies' disappeared. That's a pretty big clue and is basically an answer. Or was for us at that time...

There's a lot of hidden clues in the red, that you can't get just by reading them or thinking of them alone, but it's feels so spoilerish to go back and read them now... 8)