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Old 2012-03-12, 14:49   Link #28121
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
When was it said that Jessica only harbored a crush at most in Rprime?
The same place we were told that Rudolf never cheated on Kyrie after marrying her.

... really, though, that's just where most of the story has pitched their relationship. "Almost explicitly told."
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Old 2012-03-12, 15:45   Link #28122
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Some thoughts on EP1 only

Part 2 of 3

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2012-03-12, 19:10   Link #28123
Joachim13
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Can someone please tell me where in the Question Arcs(preferably) they discuss the First Game's First Twilight? I'm confused on wether or not Shannon's death is ever confirmed since Kanon pops up later.
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Old 2012-03-12, 20:18   Link #28124
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Honestly, I'm skeptical of JessicaXKanon in prime. It always felt like their relationship developed through the successive fictions.

Who knows how serisouly the real Jessica thought of Kanon...
Well the JessicaKanon couple is the one that ALWAYS loses even though technically with Jessica being in Rokkenjima way more often than Geoge, she should have more chances than him to win her love.

If there was something between the two (Yasu wanted to reward all the loves so maybe there was something) either Jessica noticed Kanon rather late or Kanon/Yasu took an auful lot of time in growing interested to her.

As their love seems to grow during the stories I think in Prime if it existed it was a very vague thing that later got a lot of development.
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Old 2012-03-12, 21:28   Link #28125
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chronotrig, could you please post a link to part 1 of 3? I can't find it.

BTW, is there any evidence that the final letter in Episode 1 existed at all?

All I've found is that Maria said so (and she's an established liar), and that third-person POV text said so (which is allowed to lie).

Add in the fact that she wouldn't have been in a good position to see it (Battler was standing between Maria and Natsuhi, and she probably would have looked straight at him when he grabbed her), Battler, George, and Jessica walked right past the letter without noticing it, and that the letter disappeared in a short period of time.

Also consider the problem of the phantom knock from Episode 5. The common explanation is that there never was a knock, and everyone who said they heard it lied. I think the knock corresponds to the last letter.

Last edited by rogerpepitone; 2012-03-12 at 21:42.
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Old 2012-03-12, 23:22   Link #28126
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Joachim13 View Post
Can someone please tell me where in the Question Arcs(preferably) they discuss the First Game's First Twilight? I'm confused on wether or not Shannon's death is ever confirmed since Kanon pops up later.
First Game, First Twilight is only discussed, IIRC, in the final showdown of Alliance. First, Battler plays the "18th person X" card, which Beatrice denies in red. Then, he says, to paraphrase There's nothing strange about those murders. Literally ANYONE could have done that one., which Beatrice accepts. I don't think any of the deaths in the shed were confirmed in red, but most people take Battler being able to see the insides of everyone's (sans Shannon) faces / heads as pretty solid.
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
BTW, is there any evidence that the final letter in Episode 1 existed at all?
No evidence at all. However, unlike the phantom knock in EP5, which seemed to serve some actual purpose to the people involved in the deception, I actually think that letter existed. It seems like a really random thing for Maria to lie about, or for Beatrice to instruct her to lie about at that point in the game.
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Old 2012-03-13, 00:54   Link #28127
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
BTW, is there any evidence that the final letter in Episode 1 existed at all?
Then why did Natsuhi leave, though? It doesn't seem in her character to leave Jessica and the others unprotected without a reason.

Though it's true we're never told what was in that (supposed) letter. Hm.

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Originally Posted by Joachim13 View Post
Can someone please tell me where in the Question Arcs(preferably) they discuss the First Game's First Twilight? I'm confused on wether or not Shannon's death is ever confirmed since Kanon pops up later.
Like Kealym says it's not really ever confirmed in the question arcs. In EP7 Will implies that Shannon wasn't dead in the EP1 First Twilight.

And, of course, Nanjo and Hideyoshi are the only ones to ever "see" Shannon's "corpse", unlike the 5 other corpses who were seen by everyone but Maria.
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Old 2012-03-13, 07:18   Link #28128
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Wait, did Maria see the letter?
If the calls Natsuhi received in EP5 were real, could she also have received them in EP1? Instructions that at a certain time she must leave into the entrance hall, and barricade herself in? A mysterious letter could just be made up.
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Old 2012-03-13, 09:56   Link #28129
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Interesting points, Chronotrig, but I think you're actually underselling George's knowledge of the occult. On the beach in ep1, when Maria and Battler are discussing the charm, Shannon and George start talking about what it is and what it does rather casually. It's understandable and fairly obvious why Maria would know about it, and certainly plausible why Shannon would... but why George? He acts as though he's already familiar with the charm. Surely he can't have picked that up on the spot just from Maria playing around, even if he was reading her journal over her shoulder or something.

Given that, does he even need to go thumbing through her diary? I mean, he certainly can, especially if he wants to use the symbols as a reference. But if so, then I think he already knows what they mean, which means he's seen them before and possibly even had them explained to him before. He couldn't know what the Hebrew or Latin or whatever mean unless he's had them translated in the past, or had time to look them up... or he can read them, which if true is certainly something he's not letting on!

Actually ep2 sort of makes a degree of sense if you assume George is the killer as well: Murders as many of the parents as possible, kills Jessica (who would otherwise inherit), kills the servants after they fake their deaths, tries to kill Gohda and Shannon but is killed before he can kill her, and she stages an "impossible" crime scene to cover it up. George presumably would've tried to kill Rosa under this scenario, but for whatever reason couldn't (no opportunity/Rosa is armed and too paranoid to successfully ambush), so Rosa was left alive by the end. Genji was aware of what was going on but with Shannon dead he couldn't go against her wishes and reveal the truth of the crime. So everybody just kinda... hangs out until the end.

George culprit would also be an interesting alternate explanation as to why Battler and Maria are never explicitly targeted in ep1 and ep2: They are not a threat to George because they're younger than him, Battler trusts him, and Maria is too suspicious for anyone to actually believe (and probably ignorant of a lot of what's really going on). Beatrice wouldn't kill them either, of course, so nobody has any motive to go after either of them and therefore they don't.
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Old 2012-03-13, 11:31   Link #28130
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Originally Posted by Joachim13 View Post
Can someone please tell me where in the Question Arcs(preferably) they discuss the First Game's First Twilight? I'm confused on wether or not Shannon's death is ever confirmed since Kanon pops up later.

From the EP1 script:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP1
`I could tell them by their clothes.`@ `......That old bastard and Kyrie-san.`@` ...Krauss oji-san and Rosa oba-san.`@` ......Beyond that, ...Gohda-san and, `/

@`...there's still more of them?`@` How many people died...`@`......You're fucking kidding me!`@` I can't even count them on one hand! Damn iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!`/
So he never identifies the 6th person as Shanon, but he can see at least 6 corpses, so it is unlikely, that "Shanon" was just not present. Instead they used a replacement, for example the doll from Jessica's memories (EP7).

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-13 at 11:44.
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Old 2012-03-14, 02:54   Link #28131
Kealym
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Wait, did Maria see the letter?
If the calls Natsuhi received in EP5 were real, could she also have received them in EP1? Instructions that at a certain time she must leave into the entrance hall, and barricade herself in? A mysterious letter could just be made up.
Well, just ... choose the scenario you like. There's no confirmation of the letter, and no overt proof that Natsuhi had been harassed by phone, but they're possible. I myself think Maria saw a letter, but it doesn't make that much of a difference, also.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
So he never identifies the 6th person as Shanon, but he can see at least 6 corpses, so it is unlikely, that "Shanon" was just not present. Instead they used a replacement, for example the doll from Jessica's memories (EP7).
Wasn't that doll ... like, really small? Anyways, you point out an interesting piece of script. I can only think that Battler had assumed there was another body because Hideyoshi and Kanon were standing over a spot that wasn't one of the 5 people he named, which we're told is in a blind spot from the entrance.

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Interesting points, Chronotrig, but I think you're actually underselling George's knowledge of the occult.
Well... it is possible George is just a huge trivia geek who spends too much time in library's. George gets to deliver several random expository dumps because his character is put forth as someone who "knows stuff", like how to calculate the exact worth of an X-pound gold ingot, or early childhood development theory.
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Old 2012-03-14, 03:14   Link #28132
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All I've found is that Maria said so (and she's an established liar)
Wait, really? The game makes a really big deal out of Maria's honest nature, I can't see her as a liar. I don't recall any point in the game where she says something she obviously doesn't believe, so where are you getting that she's an established liar from?
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Old 2012-03-14, 07:19   Link #28133
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Maria just believes in magic. But since she does not understand that the magic shows are just tricks that are "covered in the witches' darkness", she cannot get further than "apprentice witch".

But she really admires Beatrice and believes in her and the golden land. No she is not a liar, but instead just a poor naive child that has to deal with her overworked mother and someone who claims to be a witch... oh... and with her exaggerated fantasy.
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Old 2012-03-14, 09:05   Link #28134
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Well... it is possible George is just a huge trivia geek who spends too much time in library's. George gets to deliver several random expository dumps because his character is put forth as someone who "knows stuff", like how to calculate the exact worth of an X-pound gold ingot, or early childhood development theory.
Well, in a mystery (which if nothing else, Legend's storyline was intended to be) you should always be suspicious of the guy who seems to know a little too much about everything.
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Wait, really? The game makes a really big deal out of Maria's honest nature, I can't see her as a liar. I don't recall any point in the game where she says something she obviously doesn't believe, so where are you getting that she's an established liar from?
It is possible to "lie" - to deliberately say something that is not true - through ignorance. Maria is honest, but ignorant. Maria says things which are lies, despite a lack of intent to lie in most cases. Morally, it's generally a transitive lie, i.e. Beatrice has lied to Maria and Maria repeats this lie believing it to be true.

She also seems willing to lie as part of a story or game. Again, no intent to deceive for any particular end, but she will do so intentionally in that case.

Ange's thoughts on Maria in ep4 and Erika's fight with her in ep6 also suggest that Maria knows she's lying more often than not, but doesn't want to admit to it.
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Old 2012-03-14, 20:12   Link #28135
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About the letter:

It's possible of course that Maria had been instructed by Beatrice to lie. Maria didn't see Natsuhi reading the letter but she had been told by Beatrice that Natsuhi would leave reading a letter and she saw Natsuhi leave. She had no reason to think Beatrice would lie to her so she reported what she was told.

It's also possible that Natsuhi had a letter, dropped it before challenging Beatrice and that, after shooting her, Beatrice picked up that letter then hid it and herself to show up short later.

As for how Natsuhi got the letter it's possible she saw it while the others were focused on the corpses and questioning Maria or that she was really blackmailed like in Ep 5, had the letter previously and had been instructed to read the letter only after a certain fact... or that she decided to break the rules she'd been given and acted on her own.

Though as no red or explanations are given on that letter everything is possible.

My best guess though is that the letter didn't exist and Maria was instructed to lie/tricked into lying because it would match the mysterious letter of EP 5.

About George...
Yes, in some mysteries knowing too much is the sign you're the culprit... in others is merely a red herring.
Though I wonder if George get that extra knowledge through Shannon.
She might have purposely dropped info on him and since he's a show off he might have ended up repeating them without even realizing it, ending up being suspicious for second hand knowledge.
After all Shannon liked to talk with him about magic...
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Old 2012-03-15, 03:40   Link #28136
Kealym
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She also seems willing to lie as part of a story or game. Again, no intent to deceive for any particular end, but she will do so intentionally in that case.
This is also a good point. For example, in both End and Dawn, Maria was explicitly lying (well, in that passive way of pretending to be dead and all), and Dawn was supposed to be Battler's game about how well he understood stuff, so it must be a legit move to have her go for the trollols occasionally. Innocent, prankster trollols.

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Yes, in some mysteries knowing too much is the sign you're the culprit... in others is merely a red herring.
Though I wonder if George get that extra knowledge through Shannon.
She might have purposely dropped info on him and since he's a show off he might have ended up repeating them without even realizing it, ending up being suspicious for second hand knowledge.
After all Shannon liked to talk with him about magic...
Very possible, all things considered. I lean more towards him just having too much random ass knowledge because Shannon never seemed to talk about magic much at all, at least, not anymore than the same old Beatrice-bogeyman stories all the other servants tell, as well. Yeah, she does think magic brought her and George together, but then, Eva thinks magic helped her solve a bunch of puns, and Krauss is totally cised about this whole moon tourism thing...
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Old 2012-03-15, 08:42   Link #28137
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Bear in mind that George isn't stupid. If his occult knowledge just happened to come through Shannon, and Maria mirrored that knowledge, and Maria associated with a person she called "Beatrice," then George should easily be able to put two and two (and two) together that Shannon = "Beatrice."

He never actually says this, but if his knowledge did derive from Shannon it should be the first conclusion he reaches. That could change how he views events significantly if he already knows or suspects Beatrice's identity. That he's not revealing it to anyone else is also highly suspect if he knows or should know.
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Old 2012-03-15, 11:42   Link #28138
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Now that you say it...
I do remember Shannon talking about magic on her date with George. Maybe George even realized it before October 4th 1986 and thinks that Shannon is "clearing the way for their love" or something like that (in the forgeries at least)

So this may be an element that should be considered for prime dicussions too...
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Old 2012-03-15, 13:25   Link #28139
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Bear in mind that George isn't stupid. If his occult knowledge just happened to come through Shannon, and Maria mirrored that knowledge, and Maria associated with a person she called "Beatrice," then George should easily be able to put two and two (and two) together that Shannon = "Beatrice."

He never actually says this, but if his knowledge did derive from Shannon it should be the first conclusion he reaches. That could change how he views events significantly if he already knows or suspects Beatrice's identity. That he's not revealing it to anyone else is also highly suspect if he knows or should know.
He's not stupid but he loves Shannon and this could make hard for him to be objective about Shannon knowing more than she should. Likely he would dismiss it as a coincidence, even when an external observer would be prone to realize that's hard it'll be a coincidence.

Think at Battler... for a good while he refused to think one of his relatives or the servants could be the culprit because 'hey, he loves and trust them'.

The same would apply to George toward Shannon. At best he could think she too was passed that knowledge by someone else, that said someone else might be the culprit who might also be trying to 'shut Shannon up'.

Also in 2 games Shannon dies at the start and in one she's kidnapped in the beginning with everyone else agreeing to this version while in EP 2 in the end he refused to leave Shannon alone.

In 3 of 4 games he has no reason to think Shannon is the culprit, though he could have thought she knew more than she should.

Maybe he might have suspected Kanon to feed her with that knowledge. Kanon is unsociable, joined the Ushiromiya only by 3 years and is pretty close to Shannon, considering himself her sibling even though they aren't related.
George is prone to be jealous and can be suspicious of their 'siblings bond' or simply dislike it.

In EP 2 Kanon is also rather suspicious so why not to think he's the one that had been passing magic knowledge to Shannon, that abused of her trust and now is murdering everyone for only God knows which reason instead of his beloved Shannon who SURELY wouldn't hurt a soul and that SURELY loves everyone in the Ushiromiya family?
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Old 2012-03-17, 17:08   Link #28140
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Oh great another "multiple-choice-barrier".

We have so many theories and they all are backed up by evidence, that is why proving theories is impossible unless we can eliminate the others... It is exacly as the EP5???TP with Natsuhi/Battler culprit theories...




I recently read my first classic detective novel... the "Benson Murder Case" (by Willard Huntington Wright aka S. S. Van Dine). The detective has an interesting way to approch the case. Instead of looking for evidence he is using the "pychological anlysis".

So I try applying it to "Yasu" now:

In the forgeries the murderer kills people, sometimes fills their insides with candy, and creates close rooms. The murderer does not leave any traces of him-/herself and plans everything very well. So the murderer must be someone who is cold and calculating and really enjoys playing with the corpses in a "game".

So is Yasu able to fulfil these criteria? I think not.

While her "Beatrice" persona likes to make others acknowledge her existence by pulling pranks and so on and murdering people in a way that is impossible for a human being would make her existence undeniable, she just doesn't have a personality to match the criteria...

In EP5 Virgillia said about Battler's and Beato's relationship that it is like 2 shy children that both are too afraid of admitting their love to the other (this is also making me believe that Battler actually never forgot his promise to Beato before he became Tohya).

She is a shy and passive person and always hopes for miracles to happen by themselves. She doesn't even have enough confidence to get into contact with Battler.

That's why even from what we saw in the forgeries, Yasuda just does not seem like a person, who is able to murder. And even if she "became insane because of her love-triangle", that would make her unable to plan everything perfectly. If she was completly cold blodded from the beginning, then it would be possible of course, but such a behavior is never stated to have happened anywhere.

Or in short: Yasuda is a "tsundere" and NOT a "yandere".
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