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View Poll Results: Charater(s) that impresses you the most
Shou 27 38.57%
Gai 14 20.00%
Inori 15 21.43%
Mana 10 14.29%
Ayase 36 51.43%
Tsugumi 23 32.86%
Hare 29 41.43%
Yahiro 7 10.00%
Haruka 6 8.57%
Segai 20 28.57%
Other 14 20.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-17, 23:25   Link #21
Arabesque
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Before I get into the the discussion regarding the main cast, I'd like to address something about a certain member of the secondary one
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
While we're talking about characters, I'd like to bring up Kuhouin Arisa, who had some development that was painful to me:
Spoiler for Arisa's development:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, I agree with you on Airsa. In fact, I have a question here...

Spoiler for Arisa question, very spoilerrifc:
Spoiler for answer:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Shu seems to get hated on a lot, but I like him a lot as a character. He's very human throughout the entire series, and seeing his growth and reactions was pretty inspirational. I get the impression that people stopped watching this series at two major segments: in the very beginning, when Shu seems to express a lot of back-and-forth thinking about joining the Undertakers, and shortly after the halfway point of the series,
Spoiler for Shu personality shift:


I also found it very well-done how the series handled the situations that Shu was placed into. In the beginning, Shu accuses Gai of using people as tools; midway through the beginning, Gai basically reveals how he feels about being the leader. In the second half of the series, Shu is accused of using people as tools, and expresses somewhat similar sentiments as Gai about being a leader. Seeing it go full-circle like that was really nicely done.
Again, like I said about Ayase, on paper all of Shu's actions and attitude in those situations was perfectly justifiable and understandable. Even at the start I remember that some had mentioned that Shu character could indeed become inspirational by his decision to not run away for a second time when Inori was in danger. And you know, there is some of that in the show now in the end with him forgiving everyone for the betrayal. Even the entire point about Shu criticism of Gai as leader and his usage of people as tools was also a nice development about the difficulties of leadership.

However, we get to how it actually played out in the show, and things start to not look as good as they should've been. Episode 10, where Shu goes into his withdrawal, was honestly painful to watch since at that point there was very little reason for me to like Shu as a character, and seeing him actively trying to get people to feel sorry for him made me throw up a little in my mouth. It didn't help when he was trying to take advantage of Hare's feelings either ...

The whole bit about him becoming Führer wasn't that good either, since it came right after the heels of the premise of the need to divide the students into categories according to a device that ranked them according to arbitrary numbers (instead of how useful their voids is, or even their value as a person in labour or something more substantial) that might I add they had not a clue where it came from nor was it a good idea to choose a system that encourages the students to divide against each other (effectively putting an en to the unity you mentioned in the student body and delving the entire thing deeper down the road into further chaos).

As for the Gai/Shu leadership comparison, it might look good in theory but when the actual thing is compared, it falls flat since Shu had went from his wimp stage to his nice leader stage to his Führer stage to his current Jesus one in a very, very short time to the point where I felt it had gotten lost in the middle of all the fast transitioning. Hell, the recape episode underlines the very point you brought across about Shu's hesitation about using his friends as tools better than the show did! That's how badly that sup-plot got muddled up.

So even if I do agree with you that it was a good idea, I'm afraid I don't agree on that it was well done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Going into it a bit...
Spoiler for Motivations:
All what you said was fine, and I agree with you completely that the course of action Shu had taken afterwards, and the F-ranks treatment was understandable. However, this all goes back into how the F-ranks were pushed into this direction after Shu had taken on a system that made the F-ranks feel effectively useless, so again, while the actual development might be sound, the way it started wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
As for what happened after...
Spoiler for Betrayal:
Well, there was the ''MY ARM! MY POWER OF THE KING'' bit, but I do agree with you that the way the betrayal played out was good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler for MAJOR Guilty Crown Spoilers:
Too bad that made him think she wasn't ''there for him'' and only Inori was the one who stood by his side. Guess she should have let him cop a feel after all
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Old 2012-03-17, 23:41   Link #22
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@Ledgem I didn't hate Shu because he was a wimp. Unlike most people I don't hate characters because they're whiny little bitches (I like Yukiteru, I like Shinji, and I like Luke from ToA before he became nice). I hate him because he was a wimp that couldn't get out of the writer's control and become his own character. Unlike you, I didn't find it real, but more like they try to be real, but they don't go all the way. Every single action of his happens because the writers say so. I even said I would have liked him if he was in a different anime that actually took advantage of his character.

I also think you missed the point I was making with my statement when I said Gai becoming human was actually done well. My point was that Inori's change into a more emotional being wasn't convincing. Gai's change was convincing, mostly because he interacted with Shu and Mana a lot, plus the animation did a lot of the talking during those scenes. And I wasn't referring to him gaining emotions as he grew into a 17-year old, as we never saw him grow up into a teenager. I was referring to the entire flashback scene, starting from when he was discovered by Shu and Mana, and ending when Mana went crazy on him. You know, the point when he was still a kid? In other words, he gained emotions more convincingly than Inori did in the same time frame.

Also, the Haruka thing is a nitpick. I believe I mentioned that Shingen from Durarara is the same when it comes to being different at work and at home. The problem is, Shingen was funny and sort of unique. Haruka wasn't.

P.S. Yes, I liked Luke when he became nice as well.

Edit: Also, I should make it clear that I don't hate this anime. It's characters are awful, sure, but I like what they're trying to do with them.
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Old 2012-03-17, 23:47   Link #23
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Every single action of his happens because the writers say so. I even said I would have liked him if he was in a different anime that actually took advantage of his character.
I saw you mention this before, and I'm afraid that I don't really understand what you mean. The characters are works of fiction - how can they have freedom, or get away from the writers? Can you give me some examples of characters that are the opposite? (Ideally from series that aren't from within the past two years - I haven't watched anime heavily in quite a while!)
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Old 2012-03-18, 00:00   Link #24
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The closest thing I can think off is when a VA might ad lip during his performance, or that he is playing the character to the point where he becomes so convinced he is said character (like some theater/film actors think during their work) to the point where the script writers have no choice but listen to what they have to say. I suppose that's one way where a fictional character might voice their complain.



(I think what Flawnalyst meant was that he might have found the cast better had they been in a different show and utilized in a different manner)
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Old 2012-03-18, 00:36   Link #25
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I saw you mention this before, and I'm afraid that I don't really understand what you mean. The characters are works of fiction - how can they have freedom, or get away from the writers? Can you give me some examples of characters that are the opposite? (Ideally from series that aren't from within the past two years - I haven't watched anime heavily in quite a while!)
It's a little hard to describe, but basically, a good character has to be someone I'm interested in seeing an entire movie or book about. They either have to be someone who feels like they can exist, or if they're unrealistic, they have to be really comfortable with that fact. They should NEVER exist just to represent something. They should be characters first and symbols second, similar to how female characters should be characters first and females second. Let's look at some examples:

This isn't anime, but one show that had great characters was the 90s Batman cartoon, particularly the villains. They felt like real people with complex motivations. They felt alive because you could tell why they were doing bad things, plus the show felt like they controlled the plot rather than the writers. Okay yes, a bunch of them sort of turned generic in future episodes, but I loved how when Poison Ivy wasn't ruling the world with plants, she was hanging out with Harley Quinn to go shopping or prance around the house in just a shirt and panties.

For a character that's unrealistic, but still great (and not the Joker), I would say Ed from Cowboy Bebop. She's so batshit insane, but she's comfortable with who she is, because that's how she gets by. I think that's what a lot of kooky characters lack these days. Being comfortable with being a kook. Take away that comfortableness, and you get someone who obviously exists because the writers says he/she exists.

A wimp I really like is Yuki from Future Diary because he's meant to be a sycophantic jackass, plus his cowardly nature makes his relationship with the female lead more interesting. It's fun to see him digging himself deeper into a grave, plus you can actually see why he's such a wimp and the show actually uses his wimpy nature to its advantage. GC doesn't really take advantage of Shu's wimpiness other than for something comedic (that I don't find funny) and usually uses it to slow the plot down. But that's just me, as I don't think many people would consider that as a good reason to like a character.

One character I really hate (even more than the GC characters) is Nathan Drake from the Uncharted video game series. Talk about Hollywood-constructed. I hated how every time a bad guy threatened him, he just made a smug face and went "Oh no, he's threatening me" to the point that I just wanted to smash his face in. And that's just one of his many MANY problems. He had no flaws that he had to overcome, he had no problem killing shitloads of people (even pulling an innocent security guard to his death in Uncharted 2), and he's always motivated initially by greed. The only time he showed depth was in Uncharted 3, but even then, that was squandered because they didn't go in-depth about it. Oh, and he never faces consequences because the game was specifically made to make him invincible.

There's also a character from a movie called Airborne that I really hate. The main was a pacifist, but his pacifism wasn't the least bit convincing because he quoted Gandhi all the time, but he still talked tough to people, and then he pulled a guy's pants down at the end. And he never faces the consequences of his actions. It's like he's a pacifist because it's a fad.

I think Shu shares the same problem with the kid from Airborne in that he seems to be a coward because it's a fad. I wouldn't go so far as to say as he didn't face the consequences of his actions, but it's obvious he was created just to be the character you were supposed to project yourselves onto. He also shares Nathan Drake's problem in that the only reason he's so great is because the anime treats him like he's the only character who matters while the others get bit parts that's disguised as help. I'm glad he's not Gai, because I hate the 1-D confident types more than the 1-D wimpy types, but I still can't get into him.
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Old 2012-03-18, 00:53   Link #26
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Before I forget (and I forgot it earlier) - Arabesque, your insights into Arisa were much appreciated! I didn't connect the ending episodes with the beginning episodes in the way that you did, but I largely agree with your interpretation. It doesn't make the idea of that scene any easier on my mind, but I appreciate her as a character (even in the second half) a bit more now.

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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
I think Shu shares the same problem with the kid from Airborne in that he seems to be a coward because it's a fad. I wouldn't go so far as to say as he didn't face the consequences of his actions, but it's obvious he was created just to be the character you were supposed to project yourselves onto. He also shares Nathan Drake's problem in that the only reason he's so great is because the anime treats him like he's the only character who matters while the others get bit parts that's disguised as help. I'm glad he's not Gai, because I hate the 1-D confident types more than the 1-D wimpy types, but I still can't get into him.
Thanks for expanding a bit on that. I don't agree with your take on it, but I found it really interesting to get that viewpoint. It really goes to show how our perceptions of things can vary quite dramatically.
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Old 2012-03-18, 02:35   Link #27
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Thanks for expanding a bit on that. I don't agree with your take on it, but I found it really interesting to get that viewpoint. It really goes to show how our perceptions of things can vary quite dramatically.
Well, I admit that Guilty Crown is a fun anime to talk about when it comes to differing opinions.

Quote:
I think what Flawnalyst meant was that he might have found the cast better had they been in a different show and utilized in a different manner
And yes, that's pretty much what I meant in a nutshell.
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Old 2012-03-18, 03:46   Link #28
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Before I forget (and I forgot it earlier) - Arabesque, your insights into Arisa were much appreciated! I didn't connect the ending episodes with the beginning episodes in the way that you did, but I largely agree with your interpretation. It doesn't make the idea of that scene any easier on my mind, but I appreciate her as a character (even in the second half) a bit more now.
Honestly, I would've rather'd the show go a different direction with her character than this (preferably one where she proves that she can succeed her family with the need of ''intimate deal making'' via being a good leader, but that had to go since she had to fail in order to let Shu become the student bodies defacto King, which is a development I had problems with how it came about even if the result was interesting to watch (this seems to be a trend with Guilty Crown story)) and I still feel sick at how she's painted as a villain for what she had done.

The thing is, I feel that there were a lot of interesting plotlines regarding the secondary cast in this show, and while I don't imagine that it's possible to flesh them all out, it would've been better to address them more appropriately over the course of the show, rather than have them enter and exit the stage when ever they are needed like plot devices rather than player characters.
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Old 2012-03-23, 23:03   Link #29
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Now that the series has ended, I think I can safely that the character I hated the most was Inori. Thinking back on Guilty Crown, I could attribute most of the plotholes to the series being a mediocre teen thing, but anything to do with Inori just hurts me. There was no reason for her to be in this series at all. Fails as a badass, fails as a love interest, fails as a human being (I know she technically isn't one), fails as a character, fails at singing (this one is debatable), fails at plot relevance...just fails.
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Old 2012-03-24, 01:25   Link #30
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Now that the series has ended, I think I can safely that the character I hated the most was Inori. Thinking back on Guilty Crown, I could attribute most of the plotholes to the series being a mediocre teen thing, but anything to do with Inori just hurts me. There was no reason for her to be in this series at all. Fails as a badass, fails as a love interest, fails as a human being (I know she technically isn't one), fails as a character, fails at singing (this one is debatable), fails at plot relevance...just fails.
She drew me into the series. Her character designs were intriguing, and over the first few episodes she played a really good role.

What they did with her was rather interesting, in that I can't recall ever seeing a series pull something like this before. A few days ago you gave a critique that she seemed like a total robot in the series. I think that she had a subdued but strong personality in the first few episodes - but it's true that later in the series she became pretty robotic. I don't know exactly when it started; it was definitely in the second half of the series, and maybe also in the second half of the first half of the series. (So the second quarter... yes, yes...)

In my mind, Inori's screen time was cut back around that time, as well. She was featured prominently in the first few episodes, and then it's like she disappeared. When I think of the female characters for this series, I think of Inori in the beginning, and then Ayase and Tsugumi for the rest (with a little blip for Hare at the mid-point). Considering that Inori was set up to be the female lead for the series, that was a very unusual choice. I'm curious as to why they did that. Problems with Inori's voice actress, perhaps?

The lack of screen time for Inori also hurt the series ending. It was a very touching ending, I thought, but I didn't feel moved by it (and I think I'm pretty easy to move when it comes to the endings of series). The reason why is because, as touching and bittersweet as the scenario was, we as the audience were never really given the opportunity to make that connection with Inori. By comparison, I might have found my eyes watering up if Ayase had somehow taken Inori's place; I'm pretty sure I teared up over Hare's last moments, as well. But Inori, hmm...
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Old 2012-03-24, 09:30   Link #31
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She drew me into the series. Her character designs were intriguing, and over the first few episodes she played a really good role.

What they did with her was rather interesting, in that I can't recall ever seeing a series pull something like this before. A few days ago you gave a critique that she seemed like a total robot in the series. I think that she had a subdued but strong personality in the first few episodes - but it's true that later in the series she became pretty robotic. I don't know exactly when it started; it was definitely in the second half of the series, and maybe also in the second half of the first half of the series. (So the second quarter... yes, yes...)
Yeah, I didn't like her in the six episodes that she was important in, but when her screen time grew less and her interactions with Shu became nonexistent, that's when I started hating her AND thinking she was useless.

Ignoring the fact that I've seen this girl done better in other anime, I guess what bothered me the most was that people kept on saying Shu was a relatable character, yet I couldn't find a single relatable thing where Inori was concerned. This technically extends to the other characters as well, who mostly exist to make him look good, but her in particular really bothered me.

Edit: Also, while they're not in my worst anime cliches list, I have a bit of a bias for girls who act like they come from space.

Further Edit: Also, of all the plotholes in the anime, the ones concerning her were the ones that I actually think hurt the series. Why can she jump super high through heavy fire, only to never do it again for the rest of the series, despite having many opportunities to do so? And how did she even get in trouble in Episode 1 if she could do all that?
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Old 2012-03-24, 10:21   Link #32
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Ignoring the fact that I've seen this girl done better in other anime, I guess what bothered me the most was that people kept on saying Shu was a relatable character, yet I couldn't find a single relatable thing where Inori was concerned. This technically extends to the other characters as well, who mostly exist to make him look good, but her in particular really bothered me.
If you didn't like Inori from the start, I suppose it makes sense that you wouldn't find Shu's behavior toward her to be relatable. The way I saw it, Inori was an attractive and somewhat famous singer who was different from everyone else. Her socially subdued nature made her non-threatening to Shu, who had some socialization issues. While there was a slightly weird sequence around episode 3 or 4 (when Inori told Shu that she had just been acting the way that Gai had told her to, and that she didn't want him to get close to her), it was otherwise clear that Inori had an interest in Shu, even if she didn't know why. She was there with him at the moment that he inherited the void genome, and she was "his first" (for void removal). Together, they triumphed over a bunch of hostile forces.

I liked Inori, but as I said, it's understandable that disliking her would result in confusion over Shu's actions.

Quote:
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Edit: Also, while they're in my worst anime cliches list, I have a bit of a bias for girls who act like they come from space.
There are all sorts of cliches, both in anime and in life. I'm not particularly for or against this particular character type, but at least Inori's background gave her a valid reason to behave that way. It's just unfortunate that around the time that she seemed to become "fully human," she was practically removed from the series.

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Further Edit: Also, of all the plotholes in the anime, the ones concerning her were the ones that I actually think hurt the series. Why can she jump super high through heavy fire, only to never do it again for the rest of the series, despite having many opportunities to do so? And how did she even get in trouble in Episode 1 if she could do all that?
Why didn't they use Hare's void to heal Ayase's legs? During the school quarantine period, why didn't Shu use Souta's void to put a huge dent in the barricade for everyone to escape? If Argo could take down a bunch of endlaves with a hand-held weapon at the end, why weren't they doing all of that from the start?

One of my relatives used to say something often to me when I was a young boy: "never question a fairy tale." It was what it was.
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Old 2012-03-24, 10:40   Link #33
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Why didn't they use Hare's void to heal Ayase's legs? During the school quarantine period, why didn't Shu use Souta's void to put a huge dent in the barricade for everyone to escape? If Argo could take down a bunch of endlaves with a hand-held weapon at the end, why weren't they doing all of that from the start?

One of my relatives used to say something often to me when I was a young boy: "never question a fairy tale." It was what it was.
What I mean is that I could accept the above plotholes (although I don't think Hare's void can heal legs because they were injured for too long or something) as GC being a mediocre teen story. I know I complained about them, but looking back, I can roll with it given the quality of the story. However, the inconsistencies with the voids and Inori are the ones I have a huge problem with to this day.

Oh, and I meant to say that they're "not" among my worst anime cliches list. After all, I do like the girls from "Key" series.
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Old 2012-03-24, 12:44   Link #34
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What I mean is that I could accept the above plotholes (although I don't think Hare's void can heal legs because they were injured for too long or something) as GC being a mediocre teen story. I know I complained about them, but looking back, I can roll with it given the quality of the story. However, the inconsistencies with the voids and Inori are the ones I have a huge problem with to this day.
The problem is that Guilty Crown started off as a science fiction-based setting that quickly became pure fantasy. Science fiction usually has fairly tight world rules that it adheres to, whereas fantasy pushes things around. Guilty Crown may have had some rules in place, but it built up the fantasy to extraordinary proportions very quickly to the point that rules were either unstated or would have become too complicated to track. The series went and did its own thing.

It certainly makes speculation and explanations from within the series more difficult and less fun, because there aren't any "world rules" to explain by. To really enjoy the series, I think you just have to let those slide. I thoroughly enjoyed the cast of characters in Guilty Crown, and think that the series is ripe for speculations and explanations about character relationships and development. While the settings and powers within the series seemingly went all over the place, the characters were a bit more concrete (although there were still some confusing points). The settings and premise of the series were fantastic and I'll admit that they drew me to the series, but the major emphasis seemed to be on the characters, instead.

I heard a lot of people equating Guilty Crown with Code Geass, and I think that set a lot of people up for disappointment. The two series were only really similar up to the first half of Guilty Crown. Whereas Code Geass thoroughly explained Lelouch's power and then went on to continue the political story, Guilty Crown was seemingly willing to forego thoroughly detailing Shu's power and left the power struggles and world setting behind, instead turned inward in its second half and examining personal philosophy and personal relationships. I think most people would agree that Code Geass had better execution overall, but contrary to their similar settings and premises I get a very different feel from each series. With Code Geass I think of the story and a few key characters; with Guilty Crown I think of Shu, a lot more characters, and how their relationships shifted throughout the series.

Someone (maybe in this thread or a different one) criticized the series for throwing in too many characters and not having an adequate length to flesh them all out. Much as I enjoyed the series, I can't find a reason to disagree with that.
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Old 2012-03-25, 14:35   Link #35
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Someone (maybe in this thread or a different one) criticized the series for throwing in too many characters and not having an adequate length to flesh them all out. Much as I enjoyed the series, I can't find a reason to disagree with that.
I also feel this might really be the case. Going by the ending they were aiming for (where the viewer needs to at least care for and connect with Inori more than anyone else from the cast), it certainly would've been much wiser for the staff to have focused their efforts on more of the key characters as opposed to trying to spread the focus on different plot lines and heroines.

Now that the show is over, I'm left wondering if it was warranted giving that much focus to Darly. At first I imagined that they were aiming for the typical defector storyline, where an enemy would defect from the opposing side due to some event or incident causing them to see the error of their way and join (or at least support) the protagonist side, usually finding a morality pet (normally a little kid, love interest or if the writers are feeling lazy or cheeky, a puppy) and finally being revealed to not be that bad.

The way the show portrayed him, I got the impression that Darly was a trigger happy psychopath who murdered his father for having a lover (not exactly the most inhumane and heinous crime I could imagine ...) and then developing some form of crush on Tsugumi (a one sided, almost childish crush that came from him being given an apple ...) and then we are left being told that he's a good person. Is that ... really it?
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Old 2012-04-13, 08:59   Link #36
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I liked Guilty Crown's cast for the most part, though I did feel some of their relations to be lacking--this is especially true for Daryl and Tsugumi, I never quite got what it was supposed to be about and the ending didn't give any closure to it. Somehow I also find Shu and Inori's interactions a bit...well I just don't think it was all that great.

My favorite characters would have to be Hare and Segai.
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Old 2012-06-19, 22:04   Link #37
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Don't know if anyone reads this thread anymore, but I compiled a list of the top ten GC characters that I hate. I'd like to know what people think of it. Sorry for advertising my blog on this forum, and if it's not allowed, then I apologize (although I think it is).

With that said, months after watching this show, I've seen people say that at least Shu grew and doesn't suck like Shinji Ikari. I would have preferred if he had been Shinji. Because for all the talk about how Shinji-clones are appearing in anime more and more, very few of those clones fail to represent what made Shinji a good character.
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Old 2012-07-07, 09:28   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
Don't know if anyone reads this thread anymore, but I compiled a list of the top ten GC characters that I hate. I'd like to know what people think of it. Sorry for advertising my blog on this forum, and if it's not allowed, then I apologize (although I think it is).
I was tempted to stop reading after the first sentence, which referred to the series as a "piece of crap," but I went ahead anyway. I thought that your first two listings (Ayase and Haruka) were interesting, because they talked about the characters for their characteristics. That revealed some interesting differences in how we interpreted their actions and personalities. After that, you basically ragged on characters because of how the series utilized them, instead of analyzing the character for the traits/personality. The way I see it, your entry turned into a series commentary, instead of a character commentary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
With that said, months after watching this show, I've seen people say that at least Shu grew and doesn't suck like Shinji Ikari. I would have preferred if he had been Shinji. Because for all the talk about how Shinji-clones are appearing in anime more and more, very few of those clones fail to represent what made Shinji a good character.
What would you say made Shinji a good character? I didn't dislike him and thought that he fit well with the series, but then the themes presented by Evangelion were pretty different. Seeing Shu's personal transformations throughout the series was one of the stronger points of the series, in my opinion.
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