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Old 2012-03-17, 14:13   Link #61
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post

Chiibi, I think that you need to look out more, curiosity and broadening your tastes is not going to kill you. Try to do like some of us does, look at everything and take the best out of everything. Because otherwise, you turn out no better than some of the oldef@gs who thinks that turning back the clock and stop it at their decade of choice is being for the best.


Excuse me, but I have a VERY broad taste in anime and manga. I'll basically watch anything from any genre from any time period. Just because I said I don't really like 80s anime character designs compared to modern ones doesn't mean I don't watch those anime. I've seen Project A-Ko, Akira, Mermaid's Scar, Firetripper, and kiddy anime from even the 70s like Chirin No Suzu. I think I've seen a lot of stuff new fans haven't even heard of. If the story and direction is strong, the design is barely noticeable after a while. CNS was such a powerful 30 minutes of film that I was still thinking about it for three days afterwards, even after watching Arashi No Yoru Ni for a pick-me-up. XD

I even sat through Robotech, (rather against my own will) because my high school buddy was a HUGE fan of it...

Quote:
no I still prefer that 80s guy over this. He's definitely more sexy than kamina lol...
EWWWWWWWWWWW, nooooo he's not!! He's not even sexy! His eyebrows are thicker than a hairy caterpillar and his neck looks as thick as a tree!! THAT'S NOT SEXY!! XD
Kenshiro was not designed to be "sexy". He was designed to be "badass" so male viewers would root for him. And there's nothing wrong with that...but don't try to convince me he has sex appeal...because.......ew, no. XD

Quote:
I personally don't like that toppa guerren anime anyway (it's so boring).

Two dudes tossing whole galaxies around while fighting is boring to you?
Pray tell, what do you find EXCITING then!?
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Old 2012-03-17, 14:15   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Maybe it’s not exactly the era’s style but the style of the authors/animators. For example, here's some comparison:
I like Athena-Saori from the 80s

[snip image]

better than Athena-Sasha from the 2000s (different chara design)

[snip image]

But it’s not due to the era but from the character design alone.

So,when the chara designs are the same, the era doesn’t matter anymore, for example:
Athena-Saori 80s

[snip image]

Athena-Saori 2000s (same chara design)

[snip image]

I like both of them. Yes, the newer one has ‘cleaner’ picture but they’re still the same style-wise.
A very interesting comparison. Thank you. Interestingly, my reaction is the opposite. I like both of the designs in your first comparison (and I might like the 2000's version a tad better, though there's not too much of a difference). In your second comparison, though, I much prefer the eighties version. It's like smoothing out the wrinkles ruins the design.

I've been watching anime since the seventies (when I was a child), and there have always been shows I liked visually more than others, so I have a hard time to choose.

Another complication: very often, looking at pictures doesn't tell me whether I'll like a show or not. For example, the character designs of Clannad or Cross Game are not my cup of tea, to the point that when I see pictures I wonder what I ever saw in the shows - but that disappears as soon as actually watch. It's like I need the show-context to appreciate the design. They start to look different. It's hard to explain, and I wonder if anyone else experiences this.
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Old 2012-03-17, 14:27   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
Another complication: very often, looking at pictures doesn't tell me whether I'll like a show or not. For example, the character designs of Clannad or Cross Game are not my cup of tea, to the point that when I see pictures I wonder what I ever saw in the shows - but that disappears as soon as actually watch. It's like I need the show-context to appreciate the design. They start to look different. It's hard to explain, and I wonder if anyone else experiences this.
Absolutely, like I just explained with Chirin No Suzu; the art is primitive but as soon as you watch it, you forget all about that. There are so many anime where I went "ugh, I don't like how they look"--->watched it anyway--->"this anime is great!"
So many.

Save Reign The Conqueror. I can't get through two minutes of that...because everyone looks so disgusting to me. XD
But I hear it sucks anyway so no big loss there.
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Old 2012-03-17, 14:37   Link #64
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The old designs are great. It's the animation that didn't do them justice. Look at Gundam Unicorn and the new Zeta movies.

Now, what will the kids in 20 years think about the series of today? Will they have a thread like this too? Mind boggling.
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Old 2012-03-17, 15:40   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Excuse me, but I have a VERY broad taste in anime and manga.
I think the context of Sheba's post is not just about anime, but international style. You may have a broad taste in anime, but all you have is a broad taste of Japanese style.

What TheFluff and Sheba as well as myself has been saying is that anime and manga styles are very narrow and limited compared to not just western comic styles, but also chinese manhwa styles.

In my previous post I attribute the narrow design range of anime/manga to targeting a niche audience and production time and cost constrains. The anime and manga styles are often drawn very simplistically, with little anatomical accuracy. For manga, this allows fast drawing of panels, for anime it allows more frames to be done faster, no need to animate muscles, no need for complex facial expression animations.

Female characters suffer the most from lack of detail and variety. Their jaws do not move when they talk, they hardly have a nose and more recently in moe styles, their big eyes are just either tapered inwards or outwards. And when was the last time there was a female character without a sharp chin? At least some bulkier male characters have a square jaw and some guys have tiny eyes.

Body proportions are even worse, if all characters were to wear the same clothes, except for height , males can only be distinguished by being fat or skinny and all females can only be distinguished by bust size. This is especially true when comparing within a single style.

The Madhouse adaptation of Wolverine is a prime bad example of anime design, he was given a bishie sharp chin and skinny look, completely taking away his rugged and wild original Marvel design, destroying his personality. Anime tend to go for such form first, function later designs. If you were to look at 10 different characters all in a static neutral standing pose, you won't be able to tell what kind of personality they have because their designs don't reflect their function much. If you were to put Wolverine, Clark Kent, Joker, Homer, side by side, you'd be able to tell who's wild, who's a good guy, who's insane or lazy even without them doing anything.

Of course there are still great character designers such as Hirohiko Araki, who could create designs that are badass all the way to downright insane and bizarre. Eiichiro Oda's designs for One Piece started out pretty generic but went exponentially creative by the years, characters literally come in all shapes and sizes.
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Old 2012-03-17, 16:03   Link #66
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I don't know if I have a preference between styles of today and styles of the past but I do wish there was more variety. There are just way too many shows with the typical bishoujo design and it gets boring.

Someone said they didn't like how Cross Game looked animated, but I frankly thought it looked great. I am also really impressed with the character designs of Ozuma.

Going back in time I am watching LOGH now and I love the character designs.

But it doesn't have to be a retro design. I also really enjoyed the character designs in series like Mononoke & House of Five Leaves; just because they are different from the norm.

I also agree with the above post the Oda's designs on One Piece are really unique & fun. Although I do think he has one too many hourglass female characters.

Sure bishounen & bishoujo are great but all characters shouldn't look like this.
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Old 2012-03-17, 16:18   Link #67
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Ozuma is of course a Matsumoto anime. That style comes from the very late 60s to early 70s. It has adapted itself over the years, but is still easy to spot. And while the new Space Battleshp Yamato 2199 is not done by Matsumoto, his influence from the original can still be felt...especially in the Captain and the Doctor.

However his signiature woman design seems to be lessened in the new Yamato. Mori Yuki, Sasha, and Starsha don't quite look like his traditional willowy blonde goddess women (Maetel and some versions of Emeraldas for example). Though they still have some of that appeal. They have bigger (normal looking?) thighs than they use to have (even dead, Sasha in the trailer's thighs looked pretty good).
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Old 2012-03-17, 16:22   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I also agree with the above post the Oda's designs on One Piece are really unique & fun. Although I do think he has one too many hourglass female characters.

Sure bishounen & bishoujo are great but all characters shouldn't look like this.
Indeed, female characters are suffering in design variation everywhere in anime and manga even Oda's designs. There's no adult female in One Piece that is flat.

The issue of prettifying everything in anime and manga really makes creativity in female design a rarity. I don't even know if there's a female main character who's not cute or sexy.
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Old 2012-03-17, 17:14   Link #69
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I don't even know if there's a female main character who's not cute or sexy.
Kino from Kino's Journey is neither particularly cute nor sexy.

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Old 2012-03-17, 17:22   Link #70
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You were not suppose to be able to figure out if she was a man or a woman either.
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Old 2012-03-17, 17:41   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I don't even know if there's a female main character who's not cute or sexy.
But cute and sexy are both subjective to the person viewing it, for example I wouldn't consider Kagari from BRS(especially given her personality) cute or sexy, but someone else might:
Spoiler for Kagari:

So I find that is a ridiculous statement to make since, it isn't a clear definition to define a character as one of those especially not on a whole.
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:03   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
But cute and sexy are both subjective to the person viewing it, for example I wouldn't consider Kagari from BRS(especially given her personality) cute or sexy, but someone else might:
Spoiler for Kagari:

So I find that is a ridiculous statement to make since, it isn't a clear definition to define a character as one of those especially not on a whole.
It's not ridiculous, it's pretty much entirely correct. With very few exceptions, females in anime are designed to be attractive. There's not really any such thing as an anime female designed to be ugly; at least not playing a major role in a series. Kino may be deliberately androgynous, but she's not unattractive.

Ugly males are plentiful in shounen stuff, but in the kind of anime Chiibi watches it's all prettyboys all over.

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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
...........seriously, why are you on this forum?
To remind you that there is more to the world than anime.

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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post

Two dudes tossing whole galaxies around while fighting is boring to you?
Pray tell, what do you find EXCITING then!?
A story need not involve violence and fighting to be exciting, nor is fighting necessarily exciting in and of itself. Some people want more out of their stories than just big explosions.
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:15   Link #73
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Quote:
It's not ridiculous, it's pretty much entirely correct. With very few exceptions, females in anime are designed to be attractive.
Anime characters in general tend to be pleasing to the eye. (And thank god for that.)

Though yes, indeed, there is much less variation in female character designs than there is in male character designs.
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:32   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
It's not ridiculous, it's pretty much entirely correct. With very few exceptions, females in anime are designed to be attractive. There's not really any such thing as an anime female designed to be ugly; at least not playing a major role in a series. Kino may be deliberately androgynous, but she's not unattractive.
Thinking of a better example, Shouko Sano of Colorful is designed to at least be somewhat unattractive and she's pretty important to the story.

Also I'd argue in our culture almost any media would pick attractive over unattractive for main female characters, not just anime(plenty of Video Games sure do it).
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:33   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am also really impressed with the character designs of Ozuma.

.

.
Then watch every works by Matsumoto, like Captain Harlock, and also The Cockpit OAVs. Also Interstella 555. That's my main qualm about Ozuma, no Daft Punk for the OST.
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:37   Link #76
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Having a computer with you when you are in front of a fireplace in a leather chair petting a white cat must be really annoying. The cat takes up the lap space. The chair doesn't have room for one to sit next to you, and a table would block the fireplace (for the cat's enjoyment). And having to turn to use the computer off one's flank is terribly inconvinient. Even if it is being held by a servant.

I've tried it, best to use a coach, or the floor near the fireplace. Maybe a handheld device, though their keyboards are really small. The cat would likely try to get between you and the monitor otherwise. And I prefer Siamese cats, though a white shorthair is good for lap as well. Those long haired Persians just get too much hair everywhere. Besides, the Siamese has far more personality.





Having watched Ozuma, the character designs are very much Matsumoto with more of a late 90s feels to them (sort of like Gun Frontier). The mecha didn't quite seem entirely his style, but the thread is about the characters and not the mecha. The only one that seemed radically different from his usual style was the doctor. While she was still the usually sake drinking, cat loving doctor, her art style was not like Matsumoto's usual women. For one her chest was full. Her eyelashes were not as long. Definately not the normal willow woman. The other three looked like his usual styling. The Younger girl with short hair was familiar looking. The Captain was very Emeraldas, though with a slightly wider face. And Maya was a blue haired version of his usual willow woman with long hair and long eyelashes.
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Old 2012-03-17, 19:46   Link #77
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I think I'd have to say I like both old and new anime designs but I lean towards the new more.
Guess my view is the same as Triple_R's, I like modren female designs over the older ones but the old gar males are much better than most of todays' males.
Not to say there won't be exceptions of course.
Like for instance one of my favorite designs from inbetween the 80s and now is Gunsmith Cats' Rally Vincent.

I think it will probably always be a more prefer the "present" than that of a era thing for me cause I'd guess in another 20 years I'll probably say I'll prefer the art of then than I do of art now.
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Old 2012-03-17, 20:07   Link #78
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Quote:
I think the context of Sheba's post is not just about anime, but international style. You may have a broad taste in anime, but all you have is a broad taste of Japanese style.
I don't recall EVER saying "I only have a broad taste of Japanese style animation". I'm not one of those weeaboo teens who go "AMERICA SUCKS! WORSHIP JAPAN!!" Don Bluth is my favorite animator from America; I think he's amazing. I am fond of Harry Potter, Dr. Who, Star Wars etc. I'm not really into reading American superhero comics (I'm more of a Calvin and Hobbes type) but I have watched superhero movies and enjoyed them. I enjoy a good chunk of Disney films and cartoons from the 90s, you know, back when people put effort into kids' programming...

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If you were to look at 10 different characters all in a static neutral standing pose, you won't be able to tell what kind of personality they have because their designs don't reflect their function much. If you were to put Wolverine, Clark Kent, Joker, Homer, side by side, you'd be able to tell who's wild, who's a good guy, who's insane or lazy even without them doing anything.
Yes, and like I said before, that is boring. I like being surprised by characters. It's dumb if you can see their personality and motive written all over their appearance! It's more fun to try to guess what the personality is like and then turn out to be totally wrong. Because that's how the REAL world works sometimes!

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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Ugly males are plentiful in shounen stuff, but in the kind of anime Chiibi watches it's all prettyboys all over.
I do believe I just got done saying I watch ALL types of anime, dammit. The last time I counted the DVDs in my collection, I had more shounen than shoujo. >=p I love how you make automatic assumptions without even holding a conversation with me, Fluff.

Quote:
To remind you that there is more to the world than anime.
Nooooo, really? OMG FLUFF, I SO DID NOT KNOW THAT. I only have about ten other different hobbies that don't have to do with anime!!
And if you hate it so much, why do you have an avatar of Asa from Shuffle? o_O

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Like for instance one of my favorite designs from inbetween the 80s and now is Gunsmith Cats' Rally Vincent.
Minnie May
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Old 2012-03-17, 20:14   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Then watch every works by Matsumoto, like Captain Harlock, and also The Cockpit OAVs. Also Interstella 555. That's my main qualm about Ozuma, no Daft Punk for the OST.
I haven't seen the Matsumoto shows (except as I said in the Ozuma thread some Harlock episodes) but I mentioned it because I know the designs were "old school" & I liked that.

However yes they are something I eventually want to watch as I want to see more classic series. Finishing LOGH comes first though.



Anyways speaking of another series that used old school designs I also loved the character designs in Fantastic Children.

Anyways it's not that I think older designs are better than newer designs. I just find it refreshing when they are used because it's something different.
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Old 2012-03-17, 23:52   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
What TheFluff and Sheba as well as myself has been saying is that anime and manga styles are very narrow and limited compared to not just western comic styles, but also chinese manhwa styles.

In my previous post I attribute the narrow design range of anime/manga to targeting a niche audience and production time and cost constrains. The anime and manga styles are often drawn very simplistically, with little anatomical accuracy. For manga, this allows fast drawing of panels, for anime it allows more frames to be done faster, no need to animate muscles, no need for complex facial expression animations.
Are these flaws really limited to anime and manga or are they widespread problem that exist in every visual or animation genre out there? If exist something that doesn't have any of these flaws you mention, are they the norm or the exception in their respective genres? As in, do they make the bulk of the creations in that particular genre?

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Female characters suffer the most from lack of detail and variety. Their jaws do not move when they talk, they hardly have a nose and more recently in moe styles, their big eyes are just either tapered inwards or outwards. And when was the last time there was a female character without a sharp chin? At least some bulkier male characters have a square jaw and some guys have tiny eyes.
But, a lot of people can tell the difference between different artists' artwork. Shouldn't that be impossible if they suffer a lack of detail and variety?

Also, I think anime design is alright for what it is. I think there is no need to force an established style to go into different direction. There is no need to bring realist art virtues into caricatures or vice versa. Comparing between styles can work if we're weighing pros and cons of its application, but there is no inherently "superior" styles.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Body proportions are even worse, if all characters were to wear the same clothes, except for height , males can only be distinguished by being fat or skinny and all females can only be distinguished by bust size. This is especially true when comparing within a single style.
Does the lack of distinction really mean bad body proportion? If anything, I think it shows that it is what is generally viewed as the perfect body proportion so it gets overused.

Btw, I'm curious. In the above proposed scenario of yours, would there be any other way you can distinguish the body proportions of real people in real life, aside from what you already mentioned?
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