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Old 2012-03-18, 00:58   Link #81
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Please give me the opportunity to broaden my knowledge by asking you a few questions.

Are these flaws really limited to anime and manga or are they widespread problem that exist in every visual or animation genre out there? If exist something that doesn't have any of these flaws you mention, are they the norm or the exception in their respective genres? As in, do they make the bulk of the creations in that particular genre?
I'd say it has to exist in EVERY genre. If you look at the Disney heroines, ALL of them (human ones) have the same body type: regular/large bust size and tiny waist. Comic book women are the same too-they always have big breasts and big hips.


Quote:
But, a lot of people can tell the difference between different artists' artwork. Shouldn't that be impossible if they suffer a lack of detail and variety?
Exactly! While it's common for characters from the same genre to look similar (it's most noticeable in dating sim-based anime, there is no "set" style for any of the genres. Shounen manga artists draw pretty men AND women, shoujo ones can be plain and more shounen-esque-looking. If you flip through a manga magazine, each artist has their own style that differs at least a little bit from the others.


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Does the lack of distinction really mean bad body proportion? If anything, I think it shows that it is what is generally viewed as the perfect body proportion so it gets overused.
I agree. Sex sells (it ALWAYS does) so the artist draws sexy or moe-ish characters so people will buy their work. It's not just Japan but a great deal of the world's ideal image is "thin and beautiful". At least it's like that now. A very long time ago, this image was not valued as much; the evidence is shown through artwork from the era of Michelangelo and DaVinci. Paintings of women were actually a bit on the chubby side, yet very natural looking. And the people loved it. I'm not quite sure when the "thin with boobs" image became popular but since the corset was common during the Renaissance period, I'd imagine it must have been around then. Of course, corsets were actually made for men first...but that is still promoting a "I must look thinner!" image. They were made to correct your posture too but I should think there would be a way to do that without literally squeezing your body into an hourglass shape!
Maybe a history buff can provide some input on this? It's not really my area of expertise...^^;

By the way, everything you hear about corsets is true. You cannot breathe or eat in them with ease but damn will you look fantastic. Even a girl with Izumi Konata's bust-size will suddenly have the image of a B-cup if she puts on a corset!
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:24   Link #82
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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
It's not ridiculous, it's pretty much entirely correct. With very few exceptions, females in anime are designed to be attractive. There's not really any such thing as an anime female designed to be ugly; at least not playing a major role in a series. Kino may be deliberately androgynous, but she's not unattractive.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:32   Link #83
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Interesting topic.

I found C.A.'s posts to be rather insightful. They put into words something that I'd been noticing. It certainly seemed as if there were more variety in character designs up through the 90's. It wasn't just the character designs, but the art styles. Today, it seems as if things have become much more streamlined. For female characters in particular, you basically shift around height, hair length, hair style, hair color, eye color, and chest size. I've run across a surprising number of series where it looked as if characters had been re-used between series.

I actually have a gripe with how over-sexualized many character designs have become. Sex appeal was probably always a part of the genre, but female characters with impossible proportions are now the norm, whereas a series used to only have one for special purpose (and some would have none). I'll admit to deriving some guilty pleasure out of it, but I wish they'd tone it back at least a bit.

If I had to choose one today, I'd go with the modern style. I loved the styles from the 80's and 90's when I was first exposed to them, and followed along as we gradually transitioned to where we are today. Because this is now what I'm used to, going back to the some of the older designs is a bit of a shock. However, if you had shown me a modern character design back in the 90's, I'm not sure that I would have found it appealing.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:44   Link #84
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Some would liken it to using the same actors, just in a different role. And not just voice actors, but the body type and performance ranges as well. Very much like a 1930s Hollywood production were the studio pretty much owned the actors via contract.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:55   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some would liken it to using the same actors, just in a different role. And not just voice actors, but the body type and performance ranges as well. Very much like a 1930s Hollywood production were the studio pretty much owned the actors via contract.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:56   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some would liken it to using the same actors, just in a different role. And not just voice actors, but the body type and performance ranges as well. Very much like a 1930s Hollywood production were the studio pretty much owned the actors via contract.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I suppose the reason why it's acceptable with movies but unacceptable in anime (to me, at least) is because anime should theoretically allow for limitless unique character designs. Movies are limited to a pool of actors who aren't redesigned or undergoing plastic surgery each time. I expect each character in anime to be unique - the name and personality are associated with that character design, so to see it reused (whether intentionally or not) is a bit disruptive to the viewing experience. With a movie, I perceive the actor as the actor first and the character second. It isn't disruptive to see a well-known actor in a movie or television series because... well, maybe the brain is just wired to perceive it differently.

I don't mind when I recognize a character's voice actor between series, though. That probably relates to knowing that the VA pool is anchored to reality and can only be altered so much.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:56   Link #87
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Both old and new animes has its unique features that can be decribe as superior to each other but the more important is that it fits the taste of its current viewers.

If I were to choose between the two, I might better choose base on plot/story rather than just design....

Last edited by NoemiChan; 2012-03-18 at 02:11.
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Old 2012-03-18, 02:01   Link #88
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And how many Kugimiya Rie tsundere lolis have we had that are basically the same body type, voice, and personality. At least on the base level? (In detail they become different) If it was Hollywood, she just would have had a different wig in each production.
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Old 2012-03-18, 03:18   Link #89
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For me, each period only represents the technology, animation power, and cultural style of the time.

You'd be surprised how many singers and actor has that type of weird hair style back in 80s.

As for preferences, I don't have any. 80's anime got if own charm that zoos sexuality, current anime have theirs own moe factors. Back in 80s it's all 2-cour of more series, now it's 1-cour in majority but with much more choices of genres.

As a follower for over 20 years, I learn to adapt and enjoy what is being shown.
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Old 2012-03-18, 03:21   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Are these flaws really limited to anime and manga or are they widespread problem that exist in every visual or animation genre out there? If exist something that doesn't have any of these flaws you mention, are they the norm or the exception in their respective genres? As in, do they make the bulk of the creations in that particular genre?
Anime's popularity comes from carving a niche in the animation industry with its pretty art. How do we know an art style is Japanese? By the sparkly big eyes and slender frames, anime and manga sells because this particular narrow band of style appeals to their target audience. This target audience which has been further narrowed down today to mostly otakus, who are the ones buying most DVDs and merchandise, resulting in even more similar designs.

It is not common in other parts of the world to have art styles of different studios that are similar to each other. Disney, Looney Tunes, Simpsons, Southpark, Powerpuff Girls, Sponge Bob, Flintstones, immediately one can see how different all these are, they all have different proportions, different eyes, different facial structures and all the way down to different drawing and colouring style.
Quote:
But, a lot of people can tell the difference between different artists' artwork. Shouldn't that be impossible if they suffer a lack of detail and variety?
Mainly my gripe with the lack of detail and variety in anime and manga is a technical one, we definitely can tell the differences between different artists' styles. Our eyes are so sensitive, we can tell the difference between a line that is perfectly straight or curved, 90 degrees or 85 degrees. But most of the anime styles now have smoothed out alot of the detail lines on the face and body, especially on females, not just the lack of noses, but also other parts like the cheek, chin and forehead. A female face is literally a U with a sharp chin with 2 big eyes, 2 strokes for eyebrows, a dot for nose and a line for a mouth. It is that simple to draw an anime female.

There are alot of people out there who can draw anime or manga style art, but how many can actually draw the anatomically complex styles of Marvel, DC, Neil Gaiman's Sandman or Chinese manhua?

Of course there are simple art styles that are also not anatomically correct like Powerpuff Girls, Simpsons and many more, but at least they are completely unique and varied, compared to anime and manga.
Quote:
Also, I think anime design is alright for what it is. I think there is no need to force an established style to go into different direction. There is no need to bring realist art virtues into caricatures or vice versa. Comparing between styles can work if we're weighing pros and cons of its application, but there is no inherently "superior" styles.
Definitely there is nothing wrong for a style to be what it is or superior in a greater sense than technicalities, but if the entire industry were to draw a similar style, there is a lack of creativity and boldness to explore and experiment.

Are pretty looking or anatomically correct characters the only way to attract audience? Definitely not, otherwise Simpsons, Southpark and tons of other cartoons would have failed long ago and not have such a huge cult following that overshadows even anime.
Quote:
Does the lack of distinction really mean bad body proportion? If anything, I think it shows that it is what is generally viewed as the perfect body proportion so it gets overused.

Btw, I'm curious. In the above proposed scenario of yours, would there be any other way you can distinguish the body proportions of real people in real life, aside from what you already mentioned?
From what you've quoted me for this question, I don't mean that the body proportion is bad, I mean that the lack of variety of body proportion is bad. I'll use one of my favourite anime, Haruhi, to describe and to cast away biasness.

If you were to take away the heads of Haruhi, Yuki, Mikuru, Tsuruya, Ryoko, Kimidori and place them side by side all wearing the school uniform. The only things that are different between them is the height, by a tiny difference and only Mikuru and Yuki would have a obvious difference in bust size. Put headless Kyon, Itsuki and Taniguchi side by side, we can't tell anything different besides Itsuki being the taller one, there is no difference in shape at all.

In real life there are so many variations in body shape besides the 3 sizes and height. Broadness of chest, shoulders, muscular structures, body fat, thickness of limbs and neck. Angles of shoulders, nape, collar bone, waist, back etc. So many things to consider, to change, to exaggerate or experiment with to create infinite variations, which anime and manga really aren't trying to play around with.
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Old 2012-03-18, 04:10   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
It is not common in other parts of the world to have art styles of different studios that are similar to each other. Disney, Looney Tunes, Simpsons, Southpark, Powerpuff Girls, Sponge Bob, Flintstones, immediately one can see how different all these are, they all have different proportions, different eyes, different facial structures and all the way down to different drawing and colouring style.
Now you're just being selective and naming series of different generations for western animation (Some of them still airing because they've been airing for over a decade...). No seriously you'd need to compare to all of anime, not just modern for that be a fair comparison.

And some modern series do have more unique art styles(have you seen anything by Shaft? ), or Katanagatari had style that pretty varied from the normal anime style. Or maybe Hourou Musuko, Usagi Drop, Redline, or Colorful? All very recent series with styles that are pretty unique to them.
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Old 2012-03-18, 05:02   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
Now you're just being selective and naming series of different generations for western animation (Some of them still airing because they've been airing for over a decade...). No seriously you'd need to compare to all of anime, not just modern for that be a fair comparison.

And some modern series do have more unique art styles(have you seen anything by Shaft? ), or Katanagatari had style that pretty varied from the normal anime style. Or maybe Hourou Musuko, Usagi Drop, Redline, or Colorful? All very recent series with styles that are pretty unique to them.
Redline is a masterpiece in art and animation, I can definitely say that, but everything else you've mentioned still do not escape the large eyes and cutesy prettiness. And none of them have tried to experiment with unique body shapes and proportions.

Shaft is indeed very creative in design compared to most anime studios, but even they are not bold enough to risk losing target audience. Gainax is probably the other more experimental studio out there and they don't even care about the opinions of original authors and artists of their adapted material, they just do what is insane enough for their own standards. Panty and Stocking is probably the furthest experimentation that anime has gone to in recent years and that is still just a reference to Powerpuff Girls which was popular in Japan.

The fact is Japan has created a very unique style in the industry as a whole compared to the rest of the world, which limits its own creative boundaries. If we can plot a graph of design, the graph would have a giant peak at big eyes and cuteness for anime and manga. While the design of western comics and cartoons would be rather spread out.
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Old 2012-03-18, 06:32   Link #93
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I'm not a big advocate on watching a series based on character designs but I do have a lot of qualms in Chiibi's examples.

Looking all pretty and shiny does not make a character's design good. All artists should know this. Characters should have a unique trademark that separates them from other characters. And frankly each era has had its fair share of good and bad designs. I really cringed when you based designs based on the prettiness even though your topic has a point. It's like shoving an artist's work in the face saying "JUST MAKE THEM ALL LOOK PRETTY! DON'T PUT ANY EFFORT IN MAKING THEM LOOK UNIQUE AT ALL".

Also drawing pretty characters are relatively easy and don't require that much effort since every part of the design is standard (again all artists should know this). Drawing a character which readers will remember forever is a different thing altogether.

Also if you go for prettiness, would that mean that character designs from Kuragehime suck? Or do you prefer the 90132254534634th Ayanami Rei/Yuki Nagato clone?

*Disclaimer this is basing it on designs not the show itself.
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Old 2012-03-18, 08:07   Link #94
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Speaking of which I can't differentiate the characters on Clannad since they all look the same.

Spoiler:


and this guy on this blog says so toooooo and he's seen 48 eps lol
http://hamsapsukebe.blogspot.com/

Oh wait I read this
http://www.shamefulotakusecret.com/2...clannad-sucks/

Now it makes why I can't differentiate them because they're not meant to be differentiated... because the show is so bland and soft. This blog entry just explains why clannad sucks and it makes sense the animation sucks as well at least in this aspect
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Old 2012-03-18, 09:20   Link #95
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So what? I have said it in the thread, I watch, and we should, the series for their characters, the story it tries to tell and its universe. It mean fuckshit if you go "o noes!!! I cant tell them from each other!! o noes, they have mullets and big eyebrows its ugly and I cant sleep at night because of that.", there is nothing wrong to like one, or the other or the both, as long as you are sold on the three aforementioned elements. I sure remember someone going "I haet Ghost in the Shell SAC! I haet their designs, etc...", his loss, he is missing out a riveting paramilitary political thriller. And what about those who bitch about Takeuchi of Type-Moon? too bad for them, they are left out while the fans enjoy a rich universe.
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Old 2012-03-18, 09:48   Link #96
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I don't really differentiate between what era an anime was made in, and when the style comes from. I judge each anime's style individually.

Really, various studios and series have various styles. I have as many current-generation anime who's style I like as I have anime who's style I dislike. Vice versa for anime from the 80's.
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Old 2012-03-18, 09:54   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
So what? I have said it in the thread, I watch, and we should, the series for their characters, the story it tries to tell and its universe. It mean fuckshit if you go "o noes!!! I cant tell them from each other!! o noes, they have mullets and big eyebrows its ugly and I cant sleep at night because of that.", there is nothing wrong to like one, or the other or the both, as long as you are sold on the three aforementioned elements. I sure remember someone going "I haet Ghost in the Shell SAC! I haet their designs, etc...", his loss, he is missing out a riveting paramilitary political thriller. And what about those who bitch about Takeuchi of Type-Moon? too bad for them, they are left out while the fans enjoy a rich universe.
Well of course the story is the main priority and no one should watch anime based on the characters, but saying that character designs aren't important is like saying you can just replace an anime character with a stick figure or something. Character designs still play a role in perceiving an anime after all besides being entertainment, there are people who do treat anime as art.

If you can't tell apart one character from another then obviously there's something wrong with the designs. I'm not saying you shouldn't watch such series but character designs should still be taken into account.
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Old 2012-03-18, 10:52   Link #98
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The most important thing about character designs is that they have to be pleasing to look at. We're going to be looking at them for an entire series, thus we should like looking at them. I don't like very many 80's anime because I don't like looking at 80's character designs, its hard to enjoy the other elements series when you have to try to ignore how ugly characters look.
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Old 2012-03-18, 15:04   Link #99
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The most important thing about character designs is that they have to be pleasing to look at. We're going to be looking at them for an entire series, thus we should like looking at them. I don't like very many 80's anime because I don't like looking at 80's character designs, its hard to enjoy the other elements series when you have to try to ignore how ugly characters look.
I agree with you, but then again, I managed to watch all seasons of Initial D without clawing my eyes out.



(That's a show from late 90's/early 2000s.)
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Old 2012-03-18, 16:20   Link #100
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How do we know an art style is Japanese? By the sparkly big eyes and slender frames, anime and manga sells because this particular narrow band of style appeals to their target audience.
What about Big O and other realistic-looking anime? It's not just in the design. We can also tell if it's "from Japan" by facial expressions and certain ways the characters move too. You don't see American male characters put their arm behind their head when they get embarrassed much or the female ones hold a clenched fist to their lips when they're enchanted or scared. Then there's the sweatdrops, the tick marks, the angry fangs, etc. These are ALL of Japanese origin. (as far as I know)

Quote:
It is that simple to draw an anime female.
But it's kinda ironic that so many people who copy anime can't freaking do this. American people who attempt the manga style (mainly the ones Tokyopop published) still have western-looking characters with just a couple more highlights in their eyes to make them "look anime". The genius behind Megatokyo is the only one who did it right so far!

Quote:
Disney, Looney Tunes, Simpsons, Southpark, Powerpuff Girls, Sponge Bob, Flintstones, immediately one can see how different all these are, they all have different proportions, different eyes, different facial structures and all the way down to different drawing and colouring style.
*shrugs*
Studio Ghibli, Crayon Shin-chan, Lucky Star, Panty and Stocking, Air TV, Paradise Kiss, Dragon Ball, lol, how long do you want to keep playing this game, eh?

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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
I really cringed when you based designs based on the prettiness even though your topic has a point. It's like shoving an artist's work in the face saying "JUST MAKE THEM ALL LOOK PRETTY! DON'T PUT ANY EFFORT IN MAKING THEM LOOK UNIQUE AT ALL".

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said "don't put any effort in making them look unique"!
My argument is 80s verses today's designs, and if you compare the 80s designs in my examples with OTHER characters from the 80s, there isn't very much variety so I don't know why people are bitching about "all this change sucks because 80s anime is SO awesome!"
I mean, you just missed the point entirely.

Quote:
Also drawing pretty characters are relatively easy and don't require that much effort since every part of the design is standard (again all artists should know this).
Drawing ugly characters is just as easy-you do the opposite when you draw pretty ones. XD Giant nose, tiny eyes, fat face. lol

Quote:
Also if you go for prettiness, would that mean that character designs from Kuragehime suck?
Certainly not. Having just witnessed the first preview, I was like "Whoa, she's ugly! Not Sunako-ugly but really ugly! How unique! This anime looks good!"
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