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Old 2012-03-17, 17:46   Link #28141
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I recently read my first classic detective novel... the "Benson Murder Case" (by Willard Huntington Wright aka S. S. Van Dine). The detective has an interesting way to approch the case. Instead of looking for evidence he is using the "pychological anlysis".

So I try applying it to "Yasu" now:

In the forgeries the murderer kills people, sometimes fills their insides with candy, and creates close rooms. The murderer does not leave any traces of him-/herself and plans everything very well. So the murderer must be someone who is cold and calculating and really enjoys playing with the corpses in a "game".

So is Yasu able to fulfil these criteria? I think not.

While her "Beatrice" persona likes to make others acknowledge her existence by pulling pranks and so on and murdering people in a way that is impossible for a human being would make her existence undeniable, she just doesn't have a personality to match the criteria...

In EP5 Virgillia said about Battler's and Beato's relationship that it is like 2 shy children that both are too afraid of admitting their love to the other (this is also making me believe that Battler actually never forgot his promise to Beato before he became Tohya).

She is a shy and passive person and always hopes for miracles to happen by themselves. She doesn't even have enough confidence to get into contact with Battler.

That's why even from what we saw in the forgeries, Yasuda just does not seem like a person, who is able to murder. And even if she "became insane because of her love-triangle", that would make her unable to plan everything perfectly. If she was completly cold blodded from the beginning, then it would be possible of course, but such a behavior is never stated to have happened anywhere.

Or in short: Yasuda is a "tsundere" and NOT a "yandere".
There's to say that EP 7 proves that Shannon can make jokes that require advance planning, carry them out flawlessly, using accomplices if needed and purposely scaring people for her goals.

We start with the 'disappearing key' trick, then there's the prank played on Jessica and a TIP mentioned pranks played on Gohda as well.

Note that said pranks were aimed at making people believe in Beato but had a somewhat sinister light.
Beato isn't someone who helps people with her magic, like in Maria's case but someone who punishes who doesn't believe her.

I don't know if she's also the culprit behind the fall of one of the servants. I like to think that one was a mere incident and that the servants blamed Beatrice for no good reason at all.

Of course this is on another plan entirely compared to cutting people's stomach and stuffing them with candies... though it all depend on the key difference that we might be talking about pieceShannon and PrimeShannon.

Maria could picture killing her mother more than once and in horrible ways but this doesn't mean she killed her.
PrimeShannon might have pictured a game in which people looked as if they were killed but were actually alive, a thing that on the gameboard became true but that is completely false for Prime.

We always end up on this crossroad. While it's too heavvily implied to be false that Yasu killed people on the gameboard was she capable to do the same on Prime? Somehow this doesn't seem to be possible...
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Old 2012-03-17, 18:20   Link #28142
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
PrimeShannon might have pictured a game in which people looked as if they were killed but were actually alive, a thing that on the gameboard became true but that is completely false for Prime.

We always end up on this crossroad. While it's too heavvily implied to be false that Yasu killed people on the gameboard was she capable to do the same on Prime? Somehow this doesn't seem to be possible...
Yes i agree with this. This is probably what we are intended to think. However even on the gameboard we don't have anything to back up that Yasuda was capable to murder. Somehow the why-dunnit from Will was unsatisfying.

Maybe the "without love it cannot be seen" has multiple meanings. Aside from the multiple personality meaning, it could also mean the "love for fiction". It was stated in EP5 that the game is only solvable if the communication between reader and author works well, or to put it in Virgilia's words: That the author and the reader must love each other.

I think the correct answer for the gameboards is not "Yasuda is the culprit" but instead "Yasuda is the culprit but it's not like her, it's out of character" I guess it is the reason why Will only "won" the battle in EP7, but Battler even "understood everything about this world" in EP5. Only people that know Yasuda well can see through the facade of the Yasuda-culprit theory. Because hey, it is an anti-mystery.

This raises another problem: While Yasuda-culprit theory seems to be most the probable solution on the gameboard, isn't it the same as admitting that the witch exists? Or in other words: "To lose the game by giving up"? After all it's Yasu=Beato. I am starting to doubt Will's solution to be the perfect answer. Maybe we can really find the prime culprit (if one even exists), by going through the gameboard again.

One important part that i have realized: Will used EP1-4 to achieve the truth, while Battler had EP1-5. Maybe even that is wrong. Maybe Will only had the pure mysteries... means: Legend, Turn, Banquet and Alliance...



But yes, it's still full of "crossroads". Just look how often i used "maybe"...
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Old 2012-03-17, 20:22   Link #28143
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Yes i agree with this. This is probably what we are intended to think. However even on the gameboard we don't have anything to back up that Yasuda was capable to murder. Somehow the why-dunnit from Will was unsatisfying.
I agree. It's my main complain with Umineko especially since we were supposed to reach this solution with EP 1-4.
Shannon isn't shown to have that strong hate toward everyone that would allow her to kill them all. Sure, Kanon shows a clear dislike for many people but not everyone.
While we get Kyrie was so jealous of Asumu she might have killed her (though in the end apparently she didn't) the story doesn't provide enough clues to let us say that Yasuda wanted everyone dead.
I've heard in Our Confession we're told she didn't have high opinion of the people on the island but still 'Our confession' is extra material. It shouldn't be necessary to find the solution.

In addition, if the whole purpose was to convey a message to Battler the whole thing seems out of proportion.

Let's assume Battler figured the message after the first 6 kills and had a perfectly reasonable explanation for why he apparently forgot/didn't keep his promise, one even Yasuda could accept. Things wouldn't end well anyway in that gameboard as Yasuda would still be a murder and 6 people would still be dead.
The best ending we can reach is she would be admitted in mental care and Battler would wait for her to be healed. Or that she committed suicide before the police came.

In short, even with her best option, she still wouldn't get a happy ending.

Plus there's the fact of carrying out such plan. It's not really difficult to think 'I'll kill him and tear out his guts' but, in order to do it, you need to have a certain coldness Yasuda doesn't seem to have.
So, even if I say, hey she might have planned it anyway in a moment in which she was an emotional mess and wasn't thinking straight, I've troubles believing she would carry it out.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I think the correct answer for the gameboards is not "Yasuda is the culprit" but instead "Yasuda is the culprit but it's not like her, it's out of character" I guess it is the reason why Will only "won" the battle in EP7, but Battler even "understood everything about this world" in EP5. Only people that know Yasuda well can see through the facade of the Yasuda-culprit theory. Because hey, it is an anti-mystery.
It's an interesting theory.
I like it. I wish Ryukishi would release more extra material to support it.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This raises another problem: While Yasuda-culprit theory seems to be most the probable solution on the gameboard, isn't it the same as admitting that the witch exists? Or in other words: "To lose the game by giving up"? After all it's Yasu=Beato.
Well, technically realizing it's Yasu the culprit means to see through Beatrice.
To go back to the trick with the candy under the cup you don't deny there was a candy under the cut merely that what placed the candy under there wasn't magic but a trick.
In the same way if you say the culprit is a real person and not a witch although said person likes to introduce herself as a witch you deny her 'witch nature'.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I am starting to doubt Will's solution to be the perfect answer. Maybe we can really find the prime culprit (if one even exists), by going through the gameboard again.
Well, I think the gameboards give us some clues... though they still didn't give us a clear answer.
We know too little about Prime to say for sure that it went like that.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
One important part that i have realized: Will used EP1-4 to achieve the truth, while Battler had EP1-5. Maybe even that is wrong. Maybe Will only had the pure mysteries... means: Legend, Turn, Banquet and Alliance...
I think Will saw EP 5 but since in EP 5 the gamemaster wasn't Beato he wasn't required to hand a solution for it. He solved solely the riddles Clair asked him about and they don't even include all the murders (not mentioning they're pretty unclear).

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
But yes, it's still full of "crossroads". Just look how often i used "maybe"...
Yes, it's Umineko's problem/charm.
While it's interesting to theorize we can't find the right theorem to apply to find a single solution.
The biggest problem might be that the characters just don't fit as serial murders.
In Agatha Christie's 'Ten little indians' among the suspects you've more than one person that can fit the requirements to murder people, from a low moral sense to a certain coldness and a certain madness.

In Umineko the characters, as they're presented, just don't fit the idea of people who would make a mass murder. Whoever you pick the answer to the why dunnit is always weak... unless you go for mass hysteria due to a mystery game believed to be a true mass murder case.
It's still weak but, as far as I'm involved, a bit more believable than the solutions we were presented with.
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Old 2012-03-17, 21:45   Link #28144
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In Umineko the characters, as they're presented, just don't fit the idea of people who would make a mass murder.
Honestly, this is the reason I disregarded "Pony Theory" to begin with. EP2 first twilight. I hated thinking about it, because I could not stand the thought that someone would have done something like that.

I wonder though, since Yasu did in fact do something to Berune's key which involved lots of planning ahead of time. I remember in Higurashi, Ryukishi writing that "the impetus for tragedy is often appallingly tiny. Also appallingly, it happens in an instant, is over in an instant, and can never be wiped away."

It may seem cheap, but Yasu's mind is as stable as a Hinamizawa Syndrome victim. She just wants to have a battle of deduction with Battler, but doesn't understand that people can't come back when they are killed.
Didn't Battler ask that once somewhere in the first four chapters? The answer then would be "No, the person truly didn't think about it that way." The Beatrice we see in EP2 who gloats about her ability to bring them back to life, is an aspect of Yasu, who read so many mystery novels, and was so eager to play with Battler again. To her, it was a game between her and Battler. Wow, looking at Beatrice again in EP2, we can truly see what a sad creature Yasu is.

If Yasu is in fact the culprit on Prime...
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Old 2012-03-17, 21:57   Link #28145
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Yeah, it's hard to find a single clear solution in Umineko. Then again, some things do seem pretty solid. For example, this unsupported statement is surprisingly hard to disprove:

After EP2's First Twilight, the letter found in Beatrice's VIP room could not possibly have been written by "Beatrice". Therefore, "Beatrice" could not have been responsible for the First Twilight. "Beatrice" refers to the person who gave Rosa and Maria their envelopes, the person or people who wrote the letter found in the chapel, and the person or people who have been dropping envelopes in the rest of the games.
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Old 2012-03-17, 22:24   Link #28146
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It may seem cheap, but Yasu's mind is as stable as a Hinamizawa Syndrome victim. She just wants to have a battle of deduction with Battler, but doesn't understand that people can't come back when they are killed.
The problem is that Shannon and Kanon (I'll refer to them both as if they were two people because that's how we were lead to see them on the gameboard) in the gameboard are somewhat aware of the fact that all is a game.

Now, this can mean:

- 'They' aren't just pieces. 'They' are sort of 'self inserted' characters representing the author/gamemaster so 'they' can 'break the 4th wall' and have the knowledge that, even if 'they' kill, 'they' are basically in a story/game. While the piece in that story will be killed... well, the piece himself isn't a real person and can be 'resurrected' in the next game. This cause 'them' a lack of real motive and a lack of need of having a certain coldness to carry out the murders. It's all fiction to 'them'.

- 'They' are mad. Incidentally 'their' madness matches with the meta level.

- 'They' aren't really aware of the meta level and all the scenes in which 'they' seem to be aware of it are fantasy and never really happened in the gameboard (and I think that's very likely as all the scenes I can remember in which they showed meta awareness WERE fantasy). 'They' actually have a real motive for murdering but either it's poorly explained or it's deemed unsatisfing by readers, plus they hid a considerable coldness that was never hinted through the game.
If that's the case they know people won't come back when killed... they just don't care and hope that in the next life/paradise 'they' will be happier.
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Old 2012-03-17, 23:24   Link #28147
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I simply refuse to believe Yasu is insane. She acts far, far too rationally for a person who would need to have a loose enough grip on reality to blow things so far out of proportion.
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Yeah, it's hard to find a single clear solution in Umineko. Then again, some things do seem pretty solid. For example, this unsupported statement is surprisingly hard to disprove:

After EP2's First Twilight, the letter found in Beatrice's VIP room could not possibly have been written by "Beatrice". Therefore, "Beatrice" could not have been responsible for the First Twilight. "Beatrice" refers to the person who gave Rosa and Maria their envelopes, the person or people who wrote the letter found in the chapel, and the person or people who have been dropping envelopes in the rest of the games.
It certainly creates the impression that Will gave the answers Clair wanted to hear, not necessarily the right ones.

As Battler pointed out, there's nothing even remotely difficult about any of the First Twilights - except possibly ep3, but that one's potentially an example of a very different scenario in the first place - and there's no reason to believe they're all that special.
  • Anyone could have locked people in the shed and killed them in ep1; they had all night, and there's nothing that proves it was impossible for anybody to get together whatever was necessary.
  • If Will's even remotely correct in his assessment of ep2's First Twilight, absolutely anybody could've done that one too. Even without that, it's possible with a bit of wrangling. The killer may not have set up the whole candy feast, but he or she could easily exploit it.
  • Battler doesn't find anything at all that would make the First Twilight of ep4 look like anything but a massacre with a gun. There's nothing special or tricky about that.
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Old 2012-03-17, 23:41   Link #28148
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Originally Posted by jjblue1
The problem is that Shannon and Kanon in the gameboard are somewhat aware of the fact that all is a game.
But Shannon and Kanon are Yasu's furniture. Kanon is aware of it too.

Your reasoning is very similar to mine actually.

My three reasons:

1) Author Theory. Development especially of Shkanon's characters happen throughout the games.

2) Shkanon 4th wall breaking scenes are fantasy. A lot of people use the "Battler test" which says that Battler's experiences (In 1-4) are accurate until 0:00 Oct. 6th. Did they ever break 4th wall in front of Battler? We can say that it's fantasy (It represents something specific, but still fantasy nonetheless) In fact Battler never sees Kanon and Shannon together in the first four. In the scenes where they break fourth wall, either they are talking to each other or with Beatrice, which therefore must make it fantasy.

3) Yasu's madness that keeps Yasu from really understanding there are consequences: the thing I had mentioned in my previous post. If it's nothing but a game to play with Battler, Shkanon may also realize that they are just pieces in Yasu's game because... well... obvious reasons.

A bit of a rant going off of the third thing.
Kanon keeps repeating "We are just furniture." It seems Shannon may be the only aspect of Yasu that refuses the accept the truth. Kanon was adamant about the whole "furniture" bit, and Beatrice's weakness of the mirror shows that she too did not want to see her pitiful form. Yes, it's fantasy, but it was written for someone to understand the truth behind Yasu. Just as the scenes of wall breaking Shkanon are fantasy, they still show an important clue.

To sum this all up:
-This was just a game to play with Battler.

-Yasu didn't care, as long as she got to be with Battler.

-Kanon and Shannon are aware of what they are in terms of Yasu. (Kanon more so than Shannon)

-EP2!Meta!Beatrice shows the fact that Yasu's madness includes disregard for human life.

The whole Meta-Chess thing going on is a representation of how Yasu sees what she's doing. Even though they are real people that won't come back no matter what, she uses them as chess pieces and "captures" them without thought.

Because the way Umineko is layered and still open ended, make what you want of them, but Yasu's madness is seen in Beatrice in the early parts of the story, and this is how I make a "weak motive" become the force behind the tragedy.

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Originally Posted by Renall
I simply refuse to believe Yasu is insane.
It does seem like a cheap trick, doesn't it? But for me, applying Yasu Crazy Theory, we can see why Beato acts the way she does in MetaWorld.

However, I do agree with the first twilights. The problem is then not the howdunnit, but the who and why: "Who went crazy with a gun? Why did someone pull out the guts of the adults and stuffed them with candy?"
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Old 2012-03-18, 00:47   Link #28149
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But for me, applying Yasu Crazy Theory, we can see why Beato acts the way she does in MetaWorld.
Except that's not true. If she's crazy, it's not possible to understand her behavior because she's NUTS. A Crazy Yasu could conclude "I need to kill everyone because I have no penis" with no middle step.
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Old 2012-03-18, 01:31   Link #28150
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
After EP2's First Twilight, the letter found in Beatrice's VIP room could not possibly have been written by "Beatrice". Therefore, "Beatrice" could not have been responsible for the First Twilight. "Beatrice" refers to the person who gave Rosa and Maria their envelopes, the person or people who wrote the letter found in the chapel, and the person or people who have been dropping envelopes in the rest of the games.
Letter? What letter?

Now that I look it over again, yeah, it doesn't look like something Beatrice would write at all. But besides the language being all wrong, did you notice that it talks about an "intellectual night" even though they found it in the morning? If the letter actually existed (which I doubt), I'm not sure what that could mean.

While we're on the subject of letter discrepancies, the letter found at the first twilight of EP3 was signed "The Golden Witch Beatrice", even though every single other signature was "Beatrice the Golden".
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Old 2012-03-18, 04:20   Link #28151
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I've always thought that letter was a little weird too, but there is another thing to consider:



Even though it doesn't actually say it in the text, the image used there seems to imply that the letter was sealed with the Head's Ring, doesn't it? I don't know why that particular image would have been used for the background otherwise. (Does anyone know if the PS3 version also used the image of the One Wing envelope for this?)

Anyway, regarding Yasu's motive and whether she would be capable of killing, I kind of feel like a lot of people miss a big point about this. The key is in the development of Mariage Sorciere. After Sakutaro's death and Ange's leaving the alliance, Maria wanted Beatrice to come up with magic to get revenge on Rosa, and from that point, Mariage Sorciere became more and more sinister. The imaginary friends based on the servants who worked at the mansion in the past became demons who could turn into stakes and impale people. The friendly rabbit band became highly skilled snipers capable of killing from a distance. And so on. Beatrice was obviously perfectly able to come up with these ideas and it would appear Maria only further contributed to it. As Beatrice became more and more of a 'black witch', and created more and more 'negative magic', she must have grown a desire to USE that negative magic for something. And when Maria suggested to her the idea of carrying out the epitaph ceremony to regain her full power, is it so difficult to think that the 'black witch' Beatrice would be capable of it? I don't think it is, personally.

Here is an excerpt from E4. I really recommend reading it fully. I think people forget about this when considering Yasu's motive, only considering the information in E7, and I don't believe that this is right.

Ange: "...I've finally noticed something. I noticed it just now. ...I did something horrible to Maria onee-chan. ...And to you all and Sakutarou as well, on that day."
Mammon: "..."
Ange: "Whether magic exists, or not. ...That's up to other people to decide. It's up to you yourself. Whether magic exists for Maria onee-chan is a problem for Maria onee-chan to decide, and not for me. ...And yet, when I was young, on that day, I said it. ...By saying that there was no way magic exists...I hurt her. Mariage Sorciere is the witches' alliance Maria onee-chan created. I was invited into that, and told to become a witch with them. Thinking it a new, interesting game, I went along with that for a while. ...But, because of the cruelty of youth, I got tired of it half way through. And...I tore her pure heart apart with sharp words. ...At that time, we must have gotten into a huge fight. I forgot about it right away, but she couldn't forget about it. ...After all, to her, magic was a natural power that certainly existed, and she had believed that she would be able to share that with me. ...To Maria onee-chan, magic is a power that can interpret the world as blessed, ...no, which truly can make everything blessed. She just wanted to share that with me too. The young me tore that feeling apart. ...So when no one would understand magic together with her, she closed herself up in a shell. Onee-chan was young. She still hadn't reached a philosophical viewpoint like Amakusa. ...Yeah, now I understand...why the witches' alliance called Mariage Sorciere was necessary."

-An alliance where each acknowledges that the other is a witch.

"...That's right, I'm pretty sure that was the first article in the agreement of Mariage Sorciere. Witches of the alliance would acknowledge each other and respect each other. That is the deepest and only meaning of the witches' alliance..."

Maria onee-chan wanted to share with me the secret laws to make the world happy, called magic. But I was young. And she was too. ...I hurt her with innocent cruelty.

"On that day, I said it...reckless words. To you all and Sakutarou. I said there was no way you exist."

Even after being slammed by all those words, ...Maria onee-chan's magic, ...made her believe in her mother's love.

Sakutarou, her magic friend, always encouraged her.

...He kept saying that her mother loved her, that she was coming home late because of her work, and that she would definitely bring back a present...Even after Maria learned the fact that it really wasn't because of work, her magic kept her believing that.

So by believing that her mother loved her, by acknowledging herself, she filled her world with love and peace and serenity...and established it perfectly.

Ange: "What happened 12 years ago...what happened to my family...This was not...a journey to search for that."
Mammon: "...Then what is this journey?"
Ange: "It was a journey...to apologize to Maria onee-chan for what happened that day."
Mammon: "..."

Ange: "I don't know why, but that's what I think. ...If I hadn't hurt her, ...the incident 12 years ago might not have occurred. ...That's what I think."

I have no basis for it.

I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later.

But for some reason, I can't imagine that there is no connection.

A witch caused that incident.

And the culprit is the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And Beatrice was part of the Mariage Sorciere Alliance of Witches.

I had horribly hurt the other witch of that alliance.

I had hurt her with the thought of magic not existing.

So several years later, a crime due to a witch occurred, and that two day period that can't be explained with anything but magic was thrust in my face, thanks to that message bottle.

Ange: "I'm sure that I'm not unrelated. ...I don't get it. It could be chance, it could be fate. ...For some reason, I've started thinking that way on this journey."


If Ange hadn't left Mariage Sorciere, the incident would not have occurred. ...Simply by the existence of the above passages, this level of reasoning is possible for Drifloon. What do you think, everyone?

Now, some passages from a little further on.

The shock of having her beloved stuffed animal torn apart...had left a wound in her heart serious enough to prevent her from summoning her irreplaceable close friend.

In Maria onee-chan's eyes, Sakutarou died.

So even if Sakutarou can exist like this before me, he cannot exist before her.

Sakutarou: "I was always together with Maria...when Maria cried, I was always right beside her, telling her not to cry...But my form, my voice...nothing of me will reach Maria..."

Sakutarou hung his head, looking sad.

Ange: "...After that incident, the nature of Mariage Sorciere rapidly began to change. Before then, the alliance was a peaceful thing. But after the incident, it grew full of shadier things, focusing on how to curse people you hate. ...Onee-chan's diary began to show a clear change."

A diary is a mirror that reflects one's heart as it is.

It probably showed the personality called Maria die, and be reborn as the evil witch personality MARIA.

When she buried her diary in hatred and sadness...her heart was surely not satisfied.

Because it wasn't satisfied, she had to bury it in hatred and sadness.

And while still unsatisfied, she met with death.

If Rosa had not destroyed Sakutarou, the incident would not have occurred. ...Simply by the existence of the above passages, this level of reasoning is possible for Drifloon. What do you think, everyone?

Even if you don't believe that these incidents represent the core cause of the incident, as I do, I hope that I have at least caused you to realise that there is a lot more to this incident than only the conflict of Yasu's three souls, or simply Yasu's insanity.

Ange flat-out says that the incident wouldn't have happened if she didn't leave Mariage Sorciere. These passages are definitely important. Ryukishi didn't write them for no reason. They definitely deserve consideration whenever anyone is discussing the motive for this crime.
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Old 2012-03-18, 04:25   Link #28152
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It does seem like a cheap trick, doesn't it? But for me, applying Yasu Crazy Theory, we can see why Beato acts the way she does in MetaWorld.
Yasu/Beato is a "Tsundere". It's just an act to motivate Battler to play.



Oh and @ Drifloon:

If this would make her "not do the murder mystery game" then by paranoia-theory the murders wouldn't happen too... So it doesn't have to be necessarily real murders that caused it (well in prime at least, but we don't know if that future scene is supposed to be part of the gameboards, or just an imagination of Prime)

Also it is not Beatrice's style to kill people. IF she has an evil side, then it is watching people in agony by bringing them in embarrassing or uncomfortable situations, but that is all. I doubt it is enough to make her murder people.
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Old 2012-03-18, 09:33   Link #28153
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@Drifloon:
Yeah, the PS3 version uses the same background as the original game.
However, the text makes it very clear that the letter wasn't sealed or next to an envelope, at least at the time they found it:
Quote:
Near a water jug on the side table, there was a single sheet of writing paper.
It was accompanied by a short message and a fountain pen which had probably been used to write it...
As for why we see the sealed envelope in the background, that can easily stand for the impression given to Battler when Gohda later tells him this story. After all, the letter uses the words "intellectual night", which are never used outside the Beatrice letters in Umineko.

...Except, the fact that it uses a phrase like "intellectual night" in a letter that sounds like it was written by a schoolyard bully doesn't seem to make sense. The author's idea of "intellectual" is apparently "Now, their bellies are full in the land of sweets!", which makes no sense, unless it's a subtle jab that's far too subtle for me to understand.

In other words, the culprit is either insane beyond the point of rational thought, or they intentionally included the words "intellectual night" for some other reason.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2012-03-18 at 09:52.
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Old 2012-03-18, 11:58   Link #28154
Drifloon
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Hm, I see.

I always wonder why details like this are even included, you know? Why was this scene even in the game? Nothing about the story would be changed if that letter never existed. It does seem really suspicious. How strange.
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Old 2012-03-18, 12:42   Link #28155
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;“私がぬくぬくとここで、貴方が飛び込んでくるのを待ち呆けるとでも?@ 知的な夜に、粗暴なる貴方は似 合わない。@
`'Do you think I'd be that senile, to wait comfortably in this place for you to barge in here?`@` You're too wild to be suitable for this intellectual night.`@
; こんな間抜けに育てた親はどんな顔?@
; うん、見たよ、本当にそっくりな間抜け面。@
`What kind of faces did your parents, who raised you to be so stupid, make?`@
`Yeah, I saw them, they had a truly stupid look just like you.`@
; 今はお菓子の国でお腹いっぱい!”\
`Now, their bellies are full in the land of sweets!'`\

Is the original phrasing odd like that?
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Old 2012-03-18, 12:57   Link #28156
LyricalAura
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Another thing about the letter is that it's clearly targeted at Jessica, but there was no way for Yasu to predict ahead of time that Jessica, or anyone else for that matter, would be the one to run off and find it. Unless Jessica was an accomplice right from the start and they planned it that way, of course.
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:03   Link #28157
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
3) Yasu's madness that keeps Yasu from really understanding there are consequences: the thing I had mentioned in my previous post. If it's nothing but a game to play with Battler, Shkanon may also realize that they are just pieces in Yasu's game because... well... obvious reasons.
I wonder if she really doesn't understand this.

Let's assume Yasu is simply suicidal. As she aims to kill herself regardless of what's going to happen she might not care about the consequences.
Maybe the miracle she was hoping in was for someone to understand her, stop her and change her mind. The challenge to solve the epitaph is her request for help. The murders are the stone tied to her neck as she tries to drown herself.
Once the murders start there's no turning back unless a miracle happens, someone will understand her, forgive her, persuade her to live.

To me it looks like she's setting up a bet she plans to lose as this miracle has astronomically low chances to happen and even in EP 7, when someone solves the epitaph, we see no one cared about her.

(The interesting part of Ep 7 however would be the Lion's part. He too was about to let himself die when actually Will came back and gave him the will to live. Note that Lion hadn't killed anyone. Maybe that's what happened in Prime.)

After all we're told that a tragedy would have happened even if Battler hadn't come back... only that it would have been a smaller one. Possibly Yasu would have just killed herself (and maybe Jessica and George to complete her lovers suicide) and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
EP2!Meta!Beatrice shows the fact that Yasu's madness includes disregard for human life.

The whole Meta-Chess thing going on is a representation of how Yasu sees what she's doing. Even though they are real people that won't come back no matter what, she uses them as chess pieces and "captures" them without thought.

Because the way Umineko is layered and still open ended, make what you want of them, but Yasu's madness is seen in Beatrice in the early parts of the story, and this is how I make a "weak motive" become the force behind the tragedy.
Well, there are scenes that hint that Yasu might have a darker than it looks personality. Still, her drama was a little too veiled for my taste. Personally I prefer Higurashi where the drama of each culprit is explained so you can at least find reasons for what they did... which remains horrible but in many cases more logic than what we see here.

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I simply refuse to believe Yasu is insane. She acts far, far too rationally for a person who would need to have a loose enough grip on reality to blow things so far out of proportion.It certainly creates the impression that Will gave the answers Clair wanted to hear, not necessarily the right ones.
I don't like the idea of insane!Yasu either... though generally many form of insanity have their own logic and insane guys can be very rational on certain levels especially in books.
"10 little indians" killer is insane... though he/she plans everything carefully and lived a perfectly normal life up till the point he decided to kill 9 people and himself/herself.
The problem is I can buy how his/her motive pushed him/her to do what he/she did... but the same doesn't work so well for Yasu. Yes, it's possible she did it for this or that but in any case it seems I'm forcing an answer in the same way I could say that Battler killed everyone to avenge Asumu's death.
Let's say Rudolf's betrayal caused her to kill herself and the pain for her dead caused first his grandmother and then his grandfather to die and the Ushiromiya just covered up for Rudolf and now that he's back no one is ever mentioning Asumu or expressing regret for her death... and he takes this the wrong way.

Yes, this can be a motive for him to kill... but we know that's not what had happened.
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:05   Link #28158
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Another thing about the letter is that it's clearly targeted at Jessica, but there was no way for Yasu to predict ahead of time that Jessica, or anyone else for that matter, would be the one to run off and find it. Unless Jessica was an accomplice right from the start and they planned it that way, of course.
Clearly targeted at Jessica? It could be read as targeted at George or Battler as well.
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:06   Link #28159
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Clearly targeted at Jessica? It could be read as targeted at George or Battler as well.
Can you picture either of them being referred to as "too rude/wild/violent"?
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:17   Link #28160
jjblue1
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Quote:
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Can you picture either of them being referred to as "too rude/wild/violent"?
Well, not George but actually it's unlikely George would barge in a lady's room like Jessica did. Battler might though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
If Ange hadn't left Mariage Sorciere, the incident would not have occurred. ...Simply by the existence of the above passages, this level of reasoning is possible for Drifloon. What do you think, everyone?
I've another theory. Since Ange KNEW of Marriage sorciere she couldn't be on the island while the epitaph murder would take place because Yasu suspected she could end up revealing stuffs she didn't want the others to know.
Also the fact she was banned from Marriage Sorcierer could be viewed also as banning her to reach the golden land.
Ergo Yasu bribed Rudolf into leaving her home and that was why she sent to Rudolf an envelope.

Now... Ange probably doesn't know much but if she were to suggest Beatrice wrote in Maria's diary the cousins could find the diary a lot more interesting and Jessica might recognize Shannon's writing/draws.

Also, surely the bad things that happened to Maria reflected negatively on Marriage sorciere, adding to yasu's problems and inspiring her in the worst way.
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