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Old 2011-07-16, 14:45   Link #161
Shikijin
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I agree with Buddy Waters. When I started reading manga (manga that I regularly bought, not scans) more than 10 years ago all translators skipped honorifics, and I was still able to follow the story. The translator was "invisible". A professional translation was supposed to translate Japanese into your language, not into a hybrid of the two. Now the general attitude about it may be different, even the two translated Zaregoto books use honorifics, but I still think the same. Translation was meant to bring a piece of work to the masses, not to make the geeks feel geekier. Still, when in Rome do as the Romans do, they say.
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Old 2011-07-16, 17:14   Link #162
karice67
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I generally agree as well, but with some caveats. E.g. Although "Shizzy" in Durarara! kind of worked, I generally wouldn't try to give a Japanese name an English-sounding nickname. And I would prefer not to reverse name order because Japanese (and Korean and Chinese) names sound weird that way...

But the two broad guidelines I try to keep are that it depends on (1) the work being translated and (2) on the target audience.

That said, the argument that 'If I leave honourifics in, I'd have to leave Japanese pronouns like "anata" in as well' is pretty ridiculous to me. Translation isn't something scientific - it's never either/or.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-07-16 at 20:45.
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Old 2011-07-16, 21:11   Link #163
Used Can
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Uhh... I really don't see the problem, either way. This is not limited to Japanese, translators (even professional ones) sometimes leave in words that could easily be translated into the language they're working in, but yet you see words like "Señor," "Monsieur," "Fräulein," amongst others. In the case of Japanese honorifics, more often than not, you cannot translate them, but there are times in which their usage can indicate the type of relationship two people (or a group) has, and so leaving them in tends to work - although, this is perhaps meaningless, since the different levels of politeness in Japanese speech is almost impossible to fully translate in context without sounding unnatural.

Anyway, strictly speaking, you don't really need to leave honorifics, but depending on your target audience, it may enhance the experience.
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Old 2011-08-27, 12:52   Link #164
omimon
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Okay, so I've been re-reading the chapters that I did for Kizu (chapters 3-7) and it has been pretty painful. There are so many places that are clearly mistranslations that it's just embarrassing. I'll probably spend the next little while trying to fix everything. Shikijin if you don't mind could you look over them too?
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Old 2011-08-28, 02:20   Link #165
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Okay, so I've been re-reading the chapters that I did for Kizu (chapters 3-7) and it has been pretty painful. There are so many places that are clearly mistranslations that it's just embarrassing. I'll probably spend the next little while trying to fix everything. Shikijin if you don't mind could you look over them too?
I suspected that eventually the time for this would have come, I was just lazy and kept postponing All right, I'll start from the very first chapter on baka-tsuki and I'll try to check everything. It will take some time though.

By the way, I am currently tackling Zaregoto, I guess there's no real surprise if I say it but it feels a bit harder Japanesewise than Bake.
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Old 2011-08-28, 02:50   Link #166
Masuzu
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ZAREGOTO!!?? My God, where may I ask is this?
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Old 2011-08-28, 03:57   Link #167
Shikijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
ZAREGOTO!!?? My God, where may I ask is this?
EDITed because I realized what the true sense of your words could be. By "tackling" I meant simply reading, not translating.

Anyway, someone is translating the third novel at this link, though he appears to be on hiatus at the moment.

A trivia: "crow with wet feathers" in Japanese denotes a glossy black color. Possibly it's this kind of black that in Russian means "despair".

Last edited by Shikijin; 2011-08-28 at 12:47.
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Old 2011-08-28, 09:31   Link #168
omimon
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Otori Chapter 1
Spoiler:


BTW don't take this as a sign for me doing new translations. This chapter is just definitely the easiest of all the chapters to translate in the whole series.

Last edited by omimon; 2011-09-13 at 01:01.
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Old 2011-08-28, 21:44   Link #169
Masuzu
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Quote:
BTW don't take this as a sign for me doing new translations. This chapter is just definitely the easiest of all the chapters to translate in the whole series.
omimon: D-don't get me wrong, i-i-it's not like I'm translatiing for you, it was
just easy, that's all!! Baka.
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Old 2011-10-01, 07:39   Link #170
omimon
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I created a timeline of chronological events over at Baka-Tsuki so if anyone is interested you guys can go over there and read it. Of course it contains the usual spoilers. It is especially true for the people who wants to hold off and wait for the Nise anime to come out.
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Old 2011-10-01, 09:44   Link #171
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Do you have a link? I couldn't find it.
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Old 2011-10-01, 11:20   Link #172
omimon
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Originally Posted by Romanticide View Post
Do you have a link? I couldn't find it.
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in...eries:Timeline
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Old 2012-02-14, 21:03   Link #173
oncelot
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I dunno if it has been posted anywhere, but are any of the bakemonogatari (you know, snail, snake, monkey, and cat) translated? b-t only has up to snail 004.
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Old 2012-02-15, 03:15   Link #174
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Waters View Post
If you knew more Japanese, you'd know the importance is grossly exaggerated by most anime fans. I don't mean this as an insult at all; I thought exactly the same thing as you until I actually moved to Japan and learned the language properly. There are cases where honorifics are necessary and should be kept, and Nisio is occasionally a writer who does require them. But the majority of cases where honorifics are used as simple habit, the usual way of speaking for a Japanese native; and an accurate translation of ordinary everyday Japanese speech is ordinary everyday English speech, not some honorific laden hybrid. Even in cases where there is some significance to the honorifics, if the translator can work out a way to convey that same relationship by writing it well, they should do so -- just slapping in honorifics instead of proper character writing is so lazy I wouldn't even call it a translation.
It is important mainly because many Japanese sentences do not specify the speaker.

The speaking style can differentiate between one person and another in the text. Or what faction he belongs to and other such details.

Same with someone who uses omae and another person who uses kei for example.

And I speak as someone who does my LN translations solely from Japanese.

That's the main key role it serves in an English format though...mostly everything else is preference
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Old 2012-02-15, 23:48   Link #175
ID555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
Otori Chapter 1
Spoiler:


BTW don't take this as a sign for me doing new translations. This chapter is just definitely the easiest of all the chapters to translate in the whole series.
Awesome. I'm seeing Nadeko in new light. About her allowance, are u sure it's not 12000 yen? 1200 is barely enough for a day.
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:56   Link #176
monir
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Updated opening post, finally. Couple of questions: should these be linked to as far as the accuracy of the translation is concerned? I guess what I'm asking is how accurate is the translation? Second question is where Otori (the bit Omimon translated) fall under in respect to Monogatari series?

P.S.: Let me know if any link is broken.
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Old 2012-03-18, 14:29   Link #177
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Updated opening post, finally. Couple of questions: should these be linked to as far as the accuracy of the translation is concerned? I guess what I'm asking is how accurate is the translation? Second question is where Otori (the bit Omimon translated) fall under in respect to Monogatari series?

P.S.: Let me know if any link is broken.
I don't really understand your question in regards to the Otori chapter. It's the first chapter of Otori/Nadeko Medusa. Also as I have mention I have no plans on continuing translating the book. Even if I do it, it's going to be after the rest of the books that came before it gets translated.

Also seeing as how Baka-Tsuki now actually has a regular translator doing the translation I think a good old link to the main page of the series over there would be a lot more convenient. (They also edited all the grammar and mistranslations I did on my Kizu chapters so I can say they have a better version than the ones on this forum.)

In terms of the accuracy on the Nadeko Swim and NekoShiro chapters I have only skim through them but they seem accurate enough.
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Old 2012-03-18, 14:34   Link #178
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As someone mentioned in the light novel discussion thread, someone is translating Nekomonogatari (White).
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Old 2012-03-18, 14:44   Link #179
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I don't really understand your question in regards to the Otori chapter. It's the first chapter of Otori/Nadeko Medusa.
Not to highlight my own limitation, but I was asking about what novel this was from? Obviously, it was Otorimonogatari. *cough*

Quote:
Also as I have mention I have no plans on continuing translating the book. Even if I do it, it's going to be after the rest of the books that came before it gets translated.
You misunderstood. This is nothing more than an effort at archiving. No pressure intended.

Quote:
Also seeing as how Baka-Tsuki now actually has a regular translator doing the translation I think a good old link to the main page of the series over there would be a lot more convenient. (They also edited all the grammar and mistranslations I did on my Kizu chapters so I can say they have a better version than the ones on this forum.)
I'll add the link. I would still like to continue whenever anyone post a translation in this part of the forum

Quote:
In terms of the accuracy on the Nadeko Swim and NekoShiro chapters I have only skim through them but they seem accurate enough.
Gotcha.
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Old 2012-03-19, 18:10   Link #180
Shikijin
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It seems there are people who misunderstood the real meaning behind the postscript of Nise, so here are the postscripts from the first books.

EDIT: I forgot to explain it better: in Japan you must be humble. In all the postscripts Nisio says that he wrote these books for hobby and he never meant to publish them. This is just an act. He wants to show his humility. His words are not to be taken literally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bake1
Sometimes I want to write normal postscripts, so let's write some commentary about the three stories compiled in this book. Because I will allude at the contents of the book, I am deeply sorry if there are people who are reading this postscript before the book itself, but I recommend to stop here and read the book first. Oh well, since I just wanted to write that standard line in the end I won't really comment anything, however if you think about it a commentary of the story by the author himself is not an easy job. It is impossible to express 100% of what a person is thinking, and it is impossible to understand 100% of what has been expressed. In reality the success is 60% for each, meaning that of what the author was thinking what the reader gets of what was put in the book is, as a realistic number, 36%. The other 64% is a misunderstanding, therefore a lot of times if you read a commentary from the author as a reader you can't agree to more than half of the things. Eh, did you write it with that intention? And the like. The so called communication troubles, however it is an unshakeable fact these misunderstandings add some spice. For example, the times I recommend to others a book I love, I try to convey a scene that moved me the most impressive way I can, but when I reread the book that scene doesn't exist anywhere. After all humans are half-baked creatures, so their feelings more than half of the times come from misunderstandings, however the author doesn't explain it in a negative way, or maybe one should just take it that a story has the power to make the reader misunderstand. Every good reader has tasted the experience of rereading a book that in the past was shocking and find that unexpectedly it was nothing oustanding, and everybody has had the experience of recommending a book that moved you when you was a teen while saying "this is really interesting" to the current teens, and receiving an answer that was not sweet, but this is what the misunderstanding of the reader is, to say it well it is the result of an impression, more than being dejected maybe one should feel thankful for having had the chance to see a dream. I also have to add that sometimes I discover that the scene I couldn't find was in another book, but this is simply a problem of my memory, not the responsibility of the author or the story.
This book has three stories that -- don't focus on supernatural monsters. Anyway, I wanted to write an enjoyable novel full of silly dialogues, and so I wrote these three stories. When they were collected in a book, I asked Vofan to realize the illustrations. If I have to explain just one thing, originally the story was born from this chain of thoughts: "Tsundere and gelaende (sky slope, from German) sound similar" -> "Now that I mentioned it, isn't a gelaende a bogen (bow in skiing, from German)?" -> "If one writes bogen in kanji it would be 'abusive language'". And like this "Hitagi Crab" "Mayoi Snail" "Suruga Monkey" became "Bakemonogatari 1". In the second volume there will be even sillier dialogues, so please look forward to it.
A 100% of gratitude to all the people besides me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bake2
I can't really guess how much the problem of where to draw a line between hobby and work has made people rack their brains until now, but I think this problem is made more difficult if one starts from the premise that in life the absolute values of hobby and work are equivalent. Hobby. And work. Certainly in life both are big problems. However, if one thinks carefully, treating hobby and work as two alternatives feels unnatural. Or rather, how can I say it, in this problem the ethical viewpoint that hobby and work must not coincide must exist before the premise. I say it's not good to turn a hobby into work, however one cannot live without working. And without hobbies life would be empty. If so, turning a hobby into work or work into hobby should be recommended from the point of view of efficiency. And yet I say that "it's not good to turn a hobby into work", the reason is because of the contradiction in that work is "something one does to live", so enjoying it would be sacrilegious, and hobby is "something one does to live better" so it must be enjoyed. However it's not like if one turned hobby into work the hobby stops being hobby, and it's not like by doing it as a hobby it's not work anymore. Hobby is not work, and work is not hobby. It's hobby, and it's also work. A life that allows to declare that may be the coolest.
Speaking without fearing misunderstandings, this "Bakemonogatari" is a novel I wrote 100% for hobby. There is not a particle of work in it. It is a novel I originally wrote as a diversion to fill a large hole in the schedule, so frankly I have my doubts on whether it could be published. Since I wrote it as a hobby I am utterly ashamed that it will become evident the author's personal character ranking, however no matter the character I really enjoyed writing the dialogues, I nostalgically remembered the first time I wrote a novel. Continuing from the first volume, Vofan added beauty with his illustrations. There are some traces left that it was hobby, anyway this is the curtain on these two volumes, five stories in all, they are all yours. The compilation "Bakemonogatari 1" with "Hitagi Crab" "Mayoi Snail" "Suruga Monkey" is followed by two stories, "Nadeko Snake" and "Tsubasa Cat", that comprises this "Bakemonogatari 2".
Truly thankful for keeping me company with my hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizu
According to blood types fortune-telling, 0s tend to be a leader while As are neurotic, Bs are freewheeling and ABs do things at their own pace, or something like that. However, in leaders there must be a certain amount of neuroticism, and freewheeling and doing things at one's own pace are just different expressions. If one were to read freewheeling as doing things without seeking agreement, there is not even a paper-thin difference with being a neurotic with strong fixations, and if one thinks a leader desires an unshakable strong will that would be doing things at one's own pace. If one were to spend time thinking about it, it's a fact that one could retort they are all the same thing. Well, one could say that of all fortune-telling, not just blood types fortune-telling, the zodiac signs are a prime example, however in blood types fortune-telling there are just four categories, and conversely that simpleness seems to have great persuasive power. I think everyone has had the experience of saying one's own blood type and thinking "Oh, that's really it", but that's the impressive trick, no matter what blood type one said, it is not hard to imagine that the reaction "Oh, that's really it" would come. Besides, I think the simplest way to guess another person's blood type, well at least in Japan, letting aside the personality of the other person, is to conclude "You are A". The reason is that in Japan most people have blood type A. In the future we might have even DNA fortune-telling, gene fortune-telling, but frankly speaking I don't think there would be a great difference with present-day blood types fortune-telling.
This book "Kizumonogatari", "Koyomi Vamp", is the story of Araragi Koyomi, the storyteller of the previous work "Bakemonogatari". Even though I said previous work, there wouldn't be any problem in starting reading from this story. Actually, since chronologically this becomes the earliest placed story, it should be recognized one could read "Kizumonogatari" first. This is the story of Araragi Koyomi and a vampire, Kissshot Acerolaorion Heartunderblade. It is also the story of the meeting between Araragi Koyomi and Hanekawa Tsubasa. If "Bakemonogatari" was a novel written 100% for hobby, then "Kizumonogatari" is a novel written 120% for hobby. Originally it was a bunch of stories the author, me, should have been satisfied the moment he finished writing them, and should have sealed them without letting them catching the eye of people, but in the light of the fact that because of some mistake it was decided they would become a book like this, splendidly adorned using the drawing power of the illustrator Vofan and officially published, more than saying thanks to everyone I feel like I have to do some serious reconsiderations as a professional, anyway sometimes things like this happen, so I'm lucky to receive your magnaminity.
Obviously, if the readers can enjoy this two-part story, where I wrote so much there is nothing left to write, it's a further blessing. Using this blessing as provisions, starting from tomorrow I'll try to work for real.

Last edited by Shikijin; 2012-03-20 at 13:42.
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