AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Aquarion Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-03-20, 09:05   Link #3001
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Re: Kagura, I think he's another victim of the shaky writing. So far he's entertaining but pretty much one-dimensional, and while I'm sure he'll get some more development sooner or later there's a good chance that by then it will be too late. His personality does hinge on his obsession with Mikono but I agree with miketyson about that: maybe they're trying to play it as romantic in a Beauty & Demonwolf Beast way, but to me it just comes off as uncomfortably violent. FYI, not just because of the "I want to kill her" thing - it's the whole "I'll have you whether you want it or not, bitch" thing that he's been doing since episode 1. He may not be actually malicious (then again, we don't know how much of that "I want to kill her" was Mykage and how much was Kagura's actual desire) but his attitude is creepy. I'm not saying others can't find it hot or intriguing, but I'm really not into this sort of relationship dynamics. :/ And so far Mikono is genuinely afraid of him so I'm sure they'll do something about his attitude sooner or later, but whether it will be believable or not...

Eh, as much as I enjoyed the fooling around so far they really should've fleshed out the the characters and relationships some more.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-03-20 at 09:19.
kuromitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 09:18   Link #3002
Ypocaramel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
It's funny it ended up like this because based on the original trailer Kagura was memorable thanks to his veiled snark-smile and it gave off more of an magnificant bastard vibe, especially since we knew we was on the bad guys' side. Instead a uncontrollable beast who asks "can I kill you?" Wierd.
Ypocaramel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 09:20   Link #3003
Arya
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
So far it is really difficult to foresee an outcome for any character, but Kagura and Zessica right now are those with less development and background in respect of the others, but more hints leading/misleading to a reincarnation, am I wrong? I have the feeling those two will end up together**.
For one reason (being reincarnations) or another, (not being). Because one thing I guess writer will not break, the rule of the fate, 12,000 year bla bla. Breaking that rule will be the next Aquarion, Aquarion REVOL=lover
Anyways I'm expecting that Amata x Mikono love moments will stop soon, in any good romance a big impediment is required.

And if I guess that Kagura will have his time I'm worried about Zessica, because if things are going toward Amata/Mikono/Kagura triangle she will be relegated in a corner. And I hope it will be not the case. But if she will have a bigger role the only outcome I can see as is that** I mentioned few lines above.

I just rewatched the beginning of episode six, when Kagura arrived on that tower. Amata saw the doom marriage, why did he? I don't remember, Ceyenne told him about it?
__________________

The meaning of things lies not in the things themselves, but in our attitude towards them.
Arya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 09:25   Link #3004
Vena
Carpe Diem
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ||At the edge of finality.||
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Eh, as much as I enjoyed the fooling around so far they really should've fleshed out the the characters and relationships some more.
I really don't think there was enough time for it, and given the cast (size, for the most part) and the overall handling it is so far not at all that bad. Kagura was the only one to really get the shaft but that can be eased as criticism if, as things progress, that proves to be his only necessary development from which he will grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Re: Kagura, I think he's another victim of the shaky writing. So far he's entertaining but pretty much one-dimensional, and while I'm sure he'll get some more development sooner or later there's a good chance that by then it will be too late. His personality does hinge on his obsession with Mikono but I agree with myketyson about that: maybe they're trying to play it as romantic in a Beauty & Demonwolf Beast way, but to me it just comes off as uncomfortably violent. FYI, not just because of the "I want to kill her" thing - it's the whole "I'll have you whether you want it or not" thing that he's been doing since episode 1. He may not be actually malicious (then again, we don't know how much of that "I want to kill her" was Mykage and how much was Kagura's actual desire) but his attitude is creepy. I'm not saying others can't find it hot or intriguing, but I'm really not into this sort of relationship dynamics. :/ And so far Mikono is genuinely afraid of him so I'm sure they'll do something about his attitude sooner or later, but whether it will be believable or not...
Reversely, to be fair to Kagura's character, in universe feelings about him from our characters are multi-faceted: Mikono's fear of him has been played up as much as her regularly thinking of him in either pitying light or the episode seven of the complete opposite in that she didn't feel in danger (though I don't remember her exact line to Shu-shu). In this way, and taking into account that her *fear* only really kicked in after Mykage raped Kagura's mind into *kill kill kill*, it is fairly straight forward to conclude that the real threat to Mikono wasn't Kagura but Mykage.

There's plenty of the little details thrown about from word of mouth and the sparse actions from Kagura concerning Mikono, to show that he has a genuine heart somewhere under his doggy-dog exterior. The stalker tendencies are a character flaw, no doubt, and yes he's gruff and simple minded, but his murderous and dangerous auras have only just recently come about.

Irregardless of our exact opinions, though, we do all seem to agree that Kagura's character, integrity et al, converge on his focus on Mikono.
__________________
Transcend Eternity
Vena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:02   Link #3005
pingva
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya View Post
So far it is really difficult to foresee an outcome for any character, but Kagura and Zessica right now are those with less development and background in respect of the others, but more hints leading/misleading to a reincarnation, am I wrong? I have the feeling those two will end up together**.
For one reason (being reincarnations) or another, (not being). Because one thing I guess writer will not break, the rule of the fate, 12,000 year bla bla. Breaking that rule will be the next Aquarion, Aquarion REVOL=lover
Anyways I'm expecting that Amata x Mikono love moments will stop soon, in any good romance a big impediment is required.

And if I guess that Kagura will have his time I'm worried about Zessica, because if things are going toward Amata/Mikono/Kagura triangle she will be relegated in a corner. And I hope it will be not the case. But if she will have a bigger role the only outcome I can see as is that** I mentioned few lines above.

I just rewatched the beginning of episode six, when Kagura arrived on that tower. Amata saw the doom marriage, why did he? I don't remember, Ceyenne told him about it?
They all saw Cayenne's vision in the 1-2 episodes.
Since Zessica seems is the strongest female, her role most likely is being the True Eve of Altair.

Kagura's character so far is about Mikono. I find it funny when everyone is against them to meet, because that's the best solution to stop this mess, it's pretty obvious he doesn't want to kill her, he just curious to find out who is the owner of this smelly scent that Kagura doesn't find it so disgusting, on the contrary it attracts him, makes him want her. Just let them to talk and everything would be solved in piece.

Last edited by pingva; 2012-03-20 at 10:12.
pingva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:11   Link #3006
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Reversely, to be fair to Kagura's character, in universe feelings about him from our characters are multi-faceted: Mikono's fear of him has been played up as much as her regularly thinking of him in either pitying light or the episode seven of the complete opposite in that she didn't feel in danger (though I don't remember her exact line to Shu-shu).
? I can't check atm but both every time saw her thinking about him she mentioned how scared she was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
There's plenty of the little details thrown about from word of mouth and the sparse actions from Kagura concerning Mikono, to show that he has a genuine heart somewhere under his doggy-dog exterior. The stalker tendencies are a character flaw, no doubt, and yes he's gruff and simple minded, but his murderous and dangerous auras have only just recently come about.
I don't remember any such little details, though? ^^;; In the very first (or second, depending...) episode he was ready to smash Aquarion's cockpit to get her, without even thinking about the fact that he may injure her (I mean, huge mecha hand breaking into another mecha's cockpit, yeah... "I'LL GET YOU STINKY BITCH *CRASH* crap, why she broken? " ). Later he didn't really seem concerned when she got electrocuted, his only reaction was standing there scratching his head. He grabbed her and prepared to take off without even checking if she was okay. And there's the part where he doesn't care about her opinion at all. And all this time it seems it didn't even occur to him that she may not survive the trip to Altair. (I mean of course she will if she's ever taken away, but Kagura doesn't know that.) So yeah, I think he's pretty dangerous even without Mykage messing with his mind. ^^;, Maybe not downright murderous but dangerous in his thoughtlessness and selfishness. (And again - we don't know whether Mykage planted that in his mind or just brought forward his deepest desires. IIRC Angels can't do actual mind control, so there's that.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Irregardless of our exact opinions, though, we do all seem to agree that Kagura's character, integrity et al, converge on his focus on Mikono.
Which is not necessarily a good thing, especially as far as characterization is concerned. As of now Kagura simply doesn't stand on his own as a character. His focus episode did nothing to change that, and the more they postpone his development the less natural and believable it will be.
kuromitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:19   Link #3007
miketyson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Yeah, I got on this train of thought thinking I'd prefer Kagura be less of a beast-man and more of a "Tux-Evil Mask" or "Mykage's protege in villainy" -- the sophisticated, sneering outsider to Amata's straight-arrow, aw-shucks, farm-boy vibe -- but with that type of personality he'd either have to drop his Mikono obsession or he'd just be uncomfortable and disturbing...and a lot harder to root for.

From whence came my conclusion that "he can only get away with this Mikono-obsession if he remains a beast"; as-is the obsession just isn't compatible with self-awareness on his part unless he goes all-out evil (which might actually be kinda cool, but doesn't seem likely to happen). So the only believable options I can see for his development "mellows out => radical reduction in Mikono obsession" or "goes 2000% evil => carries his obsession with him to his grave". Since I'm starting to go in circles I'll just cut it off here, there's still room for lots of surprises as we're not even half done.

Vena: ep7 is the one where she's watching Amata and Zessica run out? If so IIRC she says she was scared, but not *just* scared, or something similar to that.
miketyson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:19   Link #3008
pingva
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
I remember Mikono mentioned that she was scared of Kagura, but at the same time she felt that he was worried about her(6 episode). In 11 episode she pities him, calls him stray dog and says that she felt loneliness from him(In the same episode she gets scared of him again.).
Kagura is too much simple minded to make him a believable bad guy(even Jin is more effective on this front), he can only be a pawn(that's what so far we see from him).
pingva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:29   Link #3009
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingva View Post
I remember Mikono mentioned that she was scared of Kagura, but at the same time she felt that he was worried about her(6 episode).
Ah, I remember that part - that's where I heard "ikizukai" (breathing) and no matter how many times I listen to it I hear "ikizukai" and not "kizukai." I wonder what native speakers heard there - maybe it would do well to do a search on 2ch or something (I'm at work atm so I can't do it).
kuromitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:30   Link #3010
Vena
Carpe Diem
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ||At the edge of finality.||
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
? I can't check atm but both every time saw her thinking about him she mentioned how scared she was.
I checked, you're right. She said that she felt scared but couldn't stop thinking about him and his worrying for her. Episode 11 has more of her dwelling on his *loneliness* or some such. That said, pure terror doesn't really come about until the most recent couple of episode.

pingva answered before I did. Ninja!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I don't remember any such little details, though? ^^;; In the very first (or second, depending...) episode he was ready to smash Aquarion's cockpit to get her, without even thinking about the fact that he may injure her (I mean, huge mecha hand breaking into another mecha's cockpit, yeah... "I'LL GET YOU STINKY BITCH *CRASH* crap, why she broken? " ). Later he didn't really seem concerned when she got electrocuted, his only reaction was standing there scratching his head. He grabbed her and prepared to take off without even checking if she was okay. And there's the part where he doesn't care about her opinion at all. And all this time it seems it didn't even occur to him that she may not survive the trip to Altair. (I mean of course she will if she's ever taken away, but Kagura doesn't know that.) So yeah, I think he's pretty dangerous even without Mykage messing with his mind. ^^;, Maybe not downright murderous but dangerous in his thoughtlessness and selfishness. (And again - we don't know whether Mykage planted that in his mind or just brought forward his deepest desires. IIRC Angels can't do actual mind control, so there's that.)
I'd call those details the fact that Mikono keeps thinking back to him either in a not overly negative way, or the whole lunch scene in episode eleven. The latter are hardly thoughts you'd have for someone who you felt was going to rip off your head and drink your blood.

I'll agree that he's dangerous but I don't think he was intentionally dangerous until after Mykage when Mikono suddenly gets the shivers from his appearance in Amata's reflection. He could have, after all, just killed Amata and taken Mikono without any one to stop him but he didn't... which he'd likely do now. (The electrocution is a bit of a wtf but its a wtf from everyone's point of view, even our own.) Suffice, he never meant ill to her before Mykage got his hands on warping his emotions. He may well have been (and is) a brute about it but that's just his basics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Which is not necessarily a good thing, especially as far as characterization is concerned. As of now Kagura simply doesn't stand on his own as a character. His focus episode did nothing to change that, and the more they postpone his development the less natural and believable it will be.
Good or bad, it doesn't change that that is his character.
__________________
Transcend Eternity
Vena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:32   Link #3011
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Moon that Wizard came from
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingva View Post
I remember Mikono mentioned that she was scared of Kagura, but at the same time she felt that he was worried about her(6 episode). In 11 episode she pities him, calls him stray dog and says that she felt loneliness from him(In the same episode she gets scared of him again.).
Hence my 'King Kong' analogy... Or just insert your wild animal of choice.

Sure you'll feel bad about the beautiful tiger being an endangered creature, but that doesn't mean you won't be terrified when coming face-to-face with one.
Chaos2Frozen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 10:48   Link #3012
pingva
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Ah, I remember that part - that's where I heard "ikizukai" (breathing) and no matter how many times I listen to it I hear "ikizukai" and not "kizukai." I wonder what native speakers heard there - maybe it would do well to do a search on 2ch or something (I'm at work atm so I can't do it).
I'm not a native speaker nor I know Japanese well.
I don't know if it helps, but I hear in this part amaitsui kizukai.
pingva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 11:06   Link #3013
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingva View Post
I'm not a native speaker nor I know Japanese well.
I don't know if it helps, but I hear in this part amaitsui kizukai.
It was "ano atsui ikizukai" - apparently the subbers heard it as "ano atsui kizukai". I'm curious as to what native speakers heard...
kuromitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 11:21   Link #3014
Vena
Carpe Diem
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ||At the edge of finality.||
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
It was "ano atsui ikizukai" - apparently the subbers heard it as "ano atsui kizukai". I'm curious as to what native speakers heard...
It may well be a case of what would sound best in English rather than a direct (and rather odd?) translation from Japanese to English. koda has been (seemingly) taking this show seriously when translating and so I wouldn't so much suspect a misunderstanding as I would that she's doing similar to what she did in the hole puns episode: change the literal pun (which loses its meaning when directly flipped to English) and go with what would be the closest English equivalent.

Suffice, I cannot say one way or the other. I have to depend on the subs when at work because I cannot exactly plop on some headphones to listen to the audio. My original interpretation wasn't exactly along the lines of koda's but I can certainly see the angle from which it may have come up.
__________________
Transcend Eternity
Vena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 11:26   Link #3015
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
It may well be a case of what would sound best in English rather than a direct (and rather odd?) translation from Japanese to English.
Well, I'm no native speaker of English either, but to me the two mean completely different things? ^^;; Hot breath and deep concern, respectively. (Btw Mykage also mentioned Sylphie's breath in ep 11.) However, the two phrases sound very similar so I'm pretty sure it's a case of mishearing - either on my part or the translator's part. Again, someone could do a search for the two variations in Japanese and see if either popped up in an episode commentary or something.
kuromitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 11:51   Link #3016
miketyson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Well, I'm no native speaker of English either, but to me the two mean completely different things? ^^;; Hot breath and deep concern, respectively. (Btw Mykage also mentioned Sylphie's breath in ep 11.) However, the two phrases sound very similar so I'm pretty sure it's a case of mishearing - either on my part or the translator's part. Again, someone could do a search for the two variations in Japanese and see if either popped up in an episode commentary or something.
Just going by basic google results it seems the natives went with 熱い息遣い (the hot breaths...). I can find plenty discussion of that episode with them using that phrase, but I can't find anything the other way around...if you want to try this yourself it helps a lot that EVOL is a term pretty much exclusive to this show.
miketyson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 12:23   Link #3017
Lord of Pandemonium
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: I'm Dancing & Yelling GANBATTE KAGURA! YOU GO GET YOUR WOMAN BACK!!!!! SHIPPING THEM HARD
In my opinion Kagura is fine as he is. He's like Apollo only more savage, and I believe he will get the development some of you feel he lacks in upcoming episodes. His past will obviously have a lot of reveals so he can't get it just yet

For me, he's had a lot of development by way of the OS, OVA, and Theme Song. Apollonious was a an Angel of Masscre and scourge of humans, until he fell in love and that's when he changed and sided with the humans.

Knowing this, Kagura's characterization makes perfect sense. He's ignorant and he's a beast, but despite that, he still follows his "instincts" and those instincts and Mikono's smell leads him to her. He doesn't know why, nor does he care. All he knows is that, Mikono is "HIS" and that's all that matters
That's why I'm squeeing, I am sucker for romances like this. I don't need to see a bunch of floating and blushes. it's cute too but ...I dunno. I like those brutal-and-passionate-amnesiac-I'm-hiding- a- monster- inside,- i- need- you- to- tame- the -beast- i- will- always- love- you- and follow -you -and -never forget -you- or- you-r smell-I was- reborn- to- meet- you-and-i-will-destroy-everything-without-you-here-to-keep-the-darkness-at-bay-i-don't-know-you-and-I-don't-know-why-but-I-Love-You" types of romances and they appeal to me in ways Mikono and Amata don't

BUT I don't see how come Kagura's entire existence hinging on Mikono is a strike for him but a plus for Amata. Double standard much? Because Amata's entire existence is "Mikono...Mikono....Mikono...Mikono" and now it's "Mikono and I want to know about that man" What is the difference?...I don't see any


Both are likable imo but only Kagura is memorable ...at least he is to me
Especially in episode 11 ...gaah....that was the most romantic thing in the series so far.

@Vena I remember you saying the same thing about Jin, and then got his development right after and now he's a Woobie ..ala Zentraadification.

Kagura's development will give him more depth. Hopefully Amata gets some too because he's also a shallow character, he's just had more screen time but it's usually during the development of characters, other than him.


My new theories...and some older ones with an added twist
  • Amata IS Aquarion and Kagura is the reincarnation and that's why they're both drawn to Mikono
  • Kagura will call out to Aquarion and Amata and Shu-Shu will combine and become the vector that forms the legendary beast
  • Kagura will call out to Aquarion and Shu-Shu will become a vector and then Kagura and Shu-Shui will do a "Sousei Gattai" and force a union with Amata and Mikono and become Aquarion
  • Amata's memories of Alisia are false, and he's Mikage's plant (no pun intended) and Kagura is her son
  • Amata is still a plant but he is Alicia's son, and is a descendant of Apollon and Silvie but HE'S NOT the reincarnation of Apollon--He's part of Sylvie


Here is the Shrade, based on the official colors in the sample images on website

click thumbnail


and Amata V1 (Gonna get one with feathers) from the CD Cover for SDTK


I just stopped by for a few minutes while I charge my cell phone and Kindle
Lord of Pandemonium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 12:30   Link #3018
miketyson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Small lightbulb went off. It might be the case that Zessica's so afraid of the dark because she's been seeing "visions" when no one's around for awhile now. Just tossing that possibility out there.
miketyson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 12:54   Link #3019
Zuul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
I think Kagura is the most interesting and loveable character of the show.

He lives in a crapsack world, his mama is dead, he doesn't even know what TLC is, he's probably been abused by Sadist Mikage since his childhood. He thinks his friend has NTRed him. He has a giant deathflag floating over him.But yet he doesn't mope about it.

Kagura is fantastic. And he's going to be important.
Zuul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-03-20, 13:09   Link #3020
LoveMeKags
#1 Ranka Fan!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: USA
Age: 22
I'll use beautiful colors for you too.

@LoP:
Regarding the fact that Kagura is more feral and dangerous; realize that when you say that and also mention about Apollonius' feelings for Celienne that you make the split reincarnation for Apollonius make more sense? For if Kagura is Apollonius, his last reincarnation (Apollo) showed care for his comrades. However, Kagura shows no development that he ever once turned to the human side in his previous life. He holds no care for anyone. He doesn't worry about the people involved in his rampages unlike his previous life, whom was very upset by things he'd done.

Meanwhile, Amata shows that care for his comrades. He has feelings towards Mikono (and one cannot simply say love if it is a split reincarnation, because one's feelings would be divided just like Silvia and Sirius') but he does hold care for others. A good example is his concern over Shrade. Whilst Apollonius loved Celienne more than life itself and allowed it to destroy the world (or universe), his previous life as Apollo showed that he'd gained humanity and befriended those around him, even Reika. This shines out in Amata. He slowly but surely makes friends with those around him. He cares about them.

Thus, I am left to theorize that Kagura is the reincarnation of his angel side, the beast of massacre, and Amata is the reincarnation of his human emotions, the caring and loving side. In essence, they are both Apollonius, just split into two beings.

If we are to base who is the reincarnation based on emotions, realize that your words just help my theory more...
__________________
LoveMeKags is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, science fiction

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.