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Old 2012-03-21, 14:08   Link #81
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
I think a valid argument would be that the author hasn't done a good job convincing you that Kabuto can pull this off. Otherwise, by stating Kabuto "shouldn't be able to do [x]" you're essentially stating that your interpretation of the manga is right, and Kishimoto's is wrong.
I was stating that it's not a good idea to do that, according to my opinion, not that it's my manga or something like that. Kishimoto does not interpret the manga, he writes it, we are interpreting it on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
I don't find it any more "nonsensical" than how powerful Naruto has been able to become over the last few arcs, and I honestly don't see fighting Itachi and Sasuke at the same time any more impractical than someone being able to fight 7 jinchurikis/bijuu simultaneously :/

Kabuto has also always been a pretty intelligent, and considering all the experiments/modifications and jutsu he must have learned over the years I really don't see this as implausible, given what we've been seeing during this arc.
Naruto becoming a sage in 2 weeks was kinda nonsense too, if you read back in the forum many of us complained about him becomeing a sage in 2 weeks whereas in 3 years with Jiraiya he didn't make much progress. But he is the main character so he can get away with such powerups in shonen manga. But Kabuto was never an evil boss before, the whole thing came out of nowhere, and it smells like Kishimoto had to make him so strong only because the plot lacking evil bosses. I wouldn't have complained if there were hints about this, but not one hint about Kabuto's potential of going from a Kakashi level ninja to a level where he fights 2 EMS guys, summons dozens of kages and fights against the ninja army of the enire world. It's clear that Kishimoto uses Orochimaru's name so frequently to try to justify many of Kabuto's achivments as being Orochimaru's, but it's still hard to make things beliveable. And it's not only me, just look at all the complaints in this chapter thread.

But overall i think that Kishimoto handled well this powerup, the explanations about Kabuto experimenting on all those advanced bloodlines and copying their powers, and also adding that it was all based on Orochimaru's research is cool, it fits in the "mad scientist" type of evil boss idea. The only exception is this snake sage mode thing, but i think later it might be explained that Kabuto's way of becoming a sage was broken, and he might then suffer some consequences. I mean Kabuto was never the natural type, he approaches problems as a scientist, he would find a way to become a sage without risking to turn into stone or something like that, but cheating the natural order of things in the end ususally costs the evil guys their life.
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Old 2012-03-21, 14:21   Link #82
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Naruto becoming a sage in 2 weeks was kinda nonsense too, if you read back in the forum many of us complained about him becomeing a sage in 2 weeks whereas in 3 years with Jiraiya he didn't make much progress. But he is the main character so he can get away with such powerups in shonen manga. But Kabuto was never an evil boss before, the whole thing came out of nowhere, and it smells like Kishimoto had to make him so strong only because the plot lacking evil bosses. I wouldn't have complained if there were hints about this, but not one hint about Kabuto's potential of going from a Kakashi level ninja to a level where he fights 2 EMS guys, summons dozens of kages and fights against the ninja army of the enire world. It's clear that Kishimoto uses Orochimaru's name so frequently to try to justify many of Kabuto's achivments as being Orochimaru's, but it's still hard to make things beliveable. And it's not only me, just look at all the complaints in this chapter thread.
I think we all agree that kabuto is a mad-scientist type character. therefore I don't think it's fair to say he pulled all of this out of ass in a short amount of time or that there were no hints as to him doing what he is presently. we know he was oro's protegé and that oro was experimenting with all sorts of forbidden jutsu including ET which we saw. we also know oro had the ability to graverob kage-level people and that kabuto was with him at that time so they could have collected a bunch of these dna samles a long time ago. kabuto was with him for many years (including the 3 during the time skip) so he didn't just do all this in a couple days or even just in 1 year or something. he was researching these jutsu almost his whole life. since he's not the physical training type and more the thinking scientist type, then research and experimentation are his training and what we are seeing now is the culmination of his life's ambition and hard work. it's not an asspull as many are saying.
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Old 2012-03-21, 14:42   Link #83
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Oh...damn. Back when Sasuke chidori'd Karin, I was kinda hoping she'd die since she was such a useless character, and was disappointed that she survived.

But now that it's confirmed that Naruto has a relatively close family member who's still alive? I want to see some bonding Kishimoto. You already robbed me of the opportunity to see him and Konan develop a sort of adoptive mother-son relationship, don't fail me again.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:25   Link #84
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I wouldn't have complained if there were hints about this, but not one hint about Kabuto's potential of going from a Kakashi level ninja to a level where he fights 2 EMS guys, summons dozens of kages and fights against the ninja army of the enire world.
Kabuto becoming an evil boss by means of gaining the Edo-Tensei and genetic modifications to his body aren't coming out of nowhere or far-fetched at all. In fact, genetic modifications should probably be expected, all things considered. The only real suprise here is the Snake Sage-Mode technique he was able to attain. I still don't see it being a problem though, except perhaps for the people who wanted Naruto to be the only one to have this ability for some reason. I wouldn't have guessed Kabuto would become this strong, but I wouldn't call it implausible either.

Quote:
It's clear that Kishimoto uses Orochimaru's name so frequently to try to justify many of Kabuto's achivments as being Orochimaru's, but it's still hard to make things beliveable.
I find this comment pretty strange since you --just one post ago-- mentioned it not being that difficult for someone to surpass the previous generation by building upon their past accomplishments :/

Quote:
And it's not only me, just look at all the complaints in this chapter thread.
At this time, there are 84 posts in this chapter's thread, and I've read 2-3 mild complaint's about Kabuto becoming this strong :/

It should also be noted that those complaints are from certain members who rarely have anything positive to say about the week's chapter anyway. On the other hand, I've read much more comments from members who are actually pleased about the snake sage-mode development.

Last edited by Midnight Commander; 2012-03-21 at 15:45.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:32   Link #85
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so was kisame in sage mode too or wat
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Old 2012-03-21, 16:47   Link #86
SonOfHeaven
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Used to consider Karin being a Uzumaki a joke. Guess all those people guessed right about it. Kind of hoping to see Naruto and Karin interact down the line.

I'm wondering what is Kishi going to do with Sasuke now. Will he be a "good guy" after the battle with Kabuto or will something happened. This is what I'm actually looking forward to. Since Naruto and Sasuke have to fight one way or the other.
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Old 2012-03-21, 17:16   Link #87
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I think we all agree that kabuto is a mad-scientist type character. therefore I don't think it's fair to say he pulled all of this out of ass in a short amount of time or that there were no hints as to him doing what he is presently. we know he was oro's protegé and that oro was experimenting with all sorts of forbidden jutsu including ET which we saw. we also know oro had the ability to graverob kage-level people and that kabuto was with him at that time so they could have collected a bunch of these dna samles a long time ago. kabuto was with him for many years (including the 3 during the time skip) so he didn't just do all this in a couple days or even just in 1 year or something. he was researching these jutsu almost his whole life. since he's not the physical training type and more the thinking scientist type, then research and experimentation are his training and what we are seeing now is the culmination of his life's ambition and hard work. it's not an asspull as many are saying.
If you read my post i didn't complain about the mad scientist stuff, i complained about sage mode. But we can also complain about the scientist stuff: why is it that at everything where Orochimaru failed Kabuto has succeeded. Wasn't Orochimaru called the genius? So if a genius fails so badly in both science and obtaining sage mode (where even Jiraiya succeeded) then why is it that Kabuto suddenly becomes so great that he can actually succeed in everything in a very short time where Orochimaru failed and it took him many years to fail. One would expect some hints about Kabuto's great talent that can surpass even Orochimaru's, but there was nothing that i can remember. I think if the author could go back in time he would now add a few pages of Kabuto stuff to a few chapters where we encountered him. Right now the only thing he can do is add flashbacks, to show us what is Kabuto's motivation, his origins.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
I find this comment pretty strange since you --just one post ago-- mentioned it not being that difficult for someone to surpass the previous generation by building upon their past accomplishments :/
So now Kabuto can succeed in everyhing where Orochimaru failed? And of course in just a few months or weeks, since it wasn't too long ago when Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru and left Kabuto alone. The evil genius Orochimaru had decades to succeed but he failed. Kabuto in such a short time gathered the DNA of hundreds of great ninja, researched all the special bloodlines of Sasuke's teammates and successfully added them to his own body, transformed his own body using Orochimaru's remains, found out the legendary secret snake place's location and suceeded in the sage training. And in all this time he didn't loose his glasses, even in his sage form he has his glasses on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
At this time, there are 84 posts in this chapter's thread, and I've read 2-3 mild complaint's about Kabuto becoming this strong :/
I found about 5-6 right on the first page, didn't count all on the next pages. But maybe we are reading a different thread
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:04   Link #88
Sageblink
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Originally Posted by Ushio the Omega View Post
Isn't it common in Japan for children to take the mothers maiden name? I know that if the wife is higher station the husband may take his wife's name.
Oh, didn't know that. Fair enough !
You're probably right on this.
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:10   Link #89
solidguy
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
.


Naruto becoming a sage in 2 weeks was kinda nonsense too, if you read back in the forum many of us complained about him becomeing a sage in 2 weeks whereas in 3 years with Jiraiya he didn't make much progress. But he is the main character so he can get away with such powerups in shonen manga. But Kabuto was never an evil boss before, the whole thing came out of nowhere, and it smells like Kishimoto had to make him so strong only because the plot lacking evil bosses.
Kabuto has been around since the beginning of the manga and has continued to progress in power. He isn't a 'static' character with a set power level such as the raikage. His character goal has involved growth since at least orochimaru's death and possibly even before that. From being introduced on the level of a genin in the forest of death, to him holding his own against kakashi, to going toe to toe with tsunade, he has always been growing, if not power level wise, then at the very least opponent wise. This is sufficient enough grounds for me to believe that his transformation his plausible.
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:49   Link #90
Franckie
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So let me get this straight - Kabuto ran all over the ninja world graverobbing the most powerful ninjas who ever lived for Edo Tensei, assimilated the abilities of Suigetsu, Juugo, and Karin into his being, brewed a giant anaconda from scratch (Manda II), mastered Oro's powers, developed a "that jutsu", and mastered (not learned!) Senjutsu within, what, a couple of months at best? Guess Kabuto will be treated similar to the main cast considering how ridiculous Naruto's and Sasuke's power-ups are.

Kabuto also appears to the actual inheritor to the Sannin theme - in contrast to the main cast - since his powers are similar to Oro, Jiraiya, and Tsunade. With his declaration to being a dragon right now, Kishimoto may be introducing the "Tiger vs Dragon" rivalry into the manga, with Naruto being the Tiger to Kabuto's Dragon. This does make sense. Naruto is chiefly raw-power while Kabuto is chiefly skill. If and when the two duke it out with each other Naruto and Kabuto will be equal to each other as far as strength is concerned. Luckily for Naruto deus ex machina will save the day for him for the upteenth time.
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:52   Link #91
Xellos-_^
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what? no one trying to Ship Naruto and Karin to continue the Uzumaki bloodline?
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:54   Link #92
Casshern
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Now Kishi just has to make Gaara, Terumi and Karui into Uzumaki.

Hokage - Naruto
Kazekage - Gaara
Mizukage - Terumi
Raikage - Karui
Tsuchikage - Karin

Uzumakis rule the world. Voila, peace!
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:07   Link #93
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If you read my post i didn't complain about the mad scientist stuff, i complained about sage mode.
And if you read your posts you'd recall you were still complaining about his rise in power before you even knew about his sage-mode, in last chapter's thread :/

Quote:
So now Kabuto can succeed in everyhing where Orochimaru failed?
Again, its called building on past accomplishments, something you mentioned 2 posts ago. Most students in the world aren't anywhere near as talented as people like Einstein, yet many have a greater understanding of physics, and relativity than he ever did because they get to stand on the shoulders of the giants before them, and see further. In this case, Oro did a siginficant amount of work, yet didn't really get to enjoy the fruit of his labors.

I guess you also have a problem with Naruto surpassing Jiraiya and Minato? Because quite frankly, if Kabuto reaching this level is supposed to be hard to believe in light of what we've been seeing, I don't know what to say about what Naruto has been able to do. Talk about contrived... And by the way, Kabuto still didn't succeed everywhere Orochimaru failed: He still didn't attain the sharingan, and I don't believe him to be anywhere close to knowing, let alone mastering all the jutsu in the world, nor understanding the metaphysical essence of the universe.

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I found about 5-6 right on the first page, didn't count all on the next pages. But maybe we are reading a different thread
Thats utter BS, theres probably not even 5 in this entire thread of 93 comments. I guess you're counting people not liking the appearance of his snake sage-mode; which is not the same thing as complaining about the plausibility of him managing to become this strong.
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:29   Link #94
Sabaku Kyu
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I'm all Susanno'd out. I'm actually missing the days Sasuke's spammed the hell out of Chidori. I wouldn't mind a Chidori about now. I'm digging Kabuto's sage-mode, but he needs to drop the glasses already. You have the power of a dragon, and you still need prescription lenses? C'mon.

Anyways. There's no real reason for him to attack Itachi (unless it's to seal), 'cause he's dead. His plan should to be to mostly avoid Itachi and focus his attacks on Sasuke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So now Kabuto can succeed in everyhing where Orochimaru failed? And of course in just a few months or weeks, since it wasn't too long ago when Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru and left Kabuto alone. The evil genius Orochimaru had decades to succeed but he failed. Kabuto in such a short time gathered the DNA of hundreds of great ninja, researched all the special bloodlines of Sasuke's teammates and successfully added them to his own body, transformed his own body using Orochimaru's remains, found out the legendary secret snake place's location and suceeded in the sage training. And in all this time he didn't loose his glasses, even in his sage form he has his glasses on


I found about 5-6 right on the first page, didn't count all on the next pages. But maybe we are reading a different thread
Kabuto's progress is due to his adaptability. He sees something useful, learns it, and improves upon it. He's giving Kakashi competition for the mantle of "copy ninja". He's actually making use of nearly every unique power/bloodline/justsu we've seen.

I find it a little odd you're so baffled with his success when you pointed out last thread how pupils can improve upon what they learned from their sensei. Kabuto and Oro didn't have a student/teacher relationship per se, but Kabuto definitely had access to all Oro's research, plans and findings. He took Oro's strengths and improve them, and more importantly learned from his weaknesses and mistakes (like against Sharingan's genjutsu) to form better strategy. This chapter, he was using hit-and-run tactics against Sharingan, instead of trying to overcome it with straight force which is what caused Oro's defeat. Of course, he will probably overestimate the power of his new sage mode, but still, he was doing far better by just being better prepared instead of more powerful.

EDIT: Haha, basically as Captain Commando said...
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:45   Link #95
Hanzoman
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I don't find it any more "nonsensical" than how powerful Naruto has been able to become over the last few arcs, and I honestly don't see fighting Itachi and Sasuke at the same time any more impractical than someone being able to fight 7 jinchurikis/bijuu simultaneously :/
lol agreed. What a crock of [@#$^*] that was. If Naruto can do things like that, why can't people who are way smarter than him achieve at least comparable levels of power? I think its pretty refreshing to see ninja besides Naruto and Sasuke attain such high levels of power. Not to mention Kabuto managed to do most of this in a very unique and intersting way in this manga --through his scientific experiments! Watching someone use their brain to empower themselves is also very refreshing to read in this manga.

Kabuto was a talented medical ninja acknowledged by the best medical ninja to rival her in her prime. He wasn't depicted as a hardcore trainer, yet as he stated in the chapter, you can also "take" talent. He's been conducting all kinds of crazy experiments with Orochimaru from day one, and got to reap all of Oro's findings, and wealth of knowledge when he was defeated. Apparently he was wise and capatilized on it, I really don't see a problem here.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'm all Susanno'd out. I'm actually missing the days Sasuke's spammed the hell out of Chidori. I wouldn't mind a Chidori about now.
It was nice to see them throw some kunai, I was a bit suprised.


Quote:
I'm digging Kabuto's sage-mode, but he needs to drop the glasses already. You have the power of a dragon, and you still need prescription lenses? C'mon.
lol very true. I really liked his trademark though, the way he used to push up his glasses with an evil smile.
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:49   Link #96
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It was just me or did Itachi made a joke calling Sasuke "Dr.Snakes"?
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:58   Link #97
Ero-Senn1n
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And if you read your posts you'd recall you were still complaining about his rise in power before you even knew about his sage-mode, in last chapter's thread :/
I complained about the possibility of something that can happen in the next chapter. And it happened. And that is a non - mad scientist super-powerup, because i'm ok with all the mad scientist type powerups. Orochimaru had nothing to do with sage mode previously. On the other hand we see the pattern mentioned by you in the Jiraiya -> Naruto relation. Did we see Orochimaru trying to learn snake sage mode, learning it to a degree? I never saw that, the whole snake sage thing was introduced just now.

And BTW Kabuto was never meant to be Orochimaru's pupil, he was his number one servant.

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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
Thats utter BS, theres probably not even 5 in this entire thread of 93 comments.
Here are those on the first page:
1 2 3 4 5
And i don't want to continue on the 2nd page...
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:59   Link #98
Hanzoman
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Originally Posted by DarthDestroiar View Post
It was just me or did Itachi made a joke calling Sasuke "Dr.Snakes"?
He made one or two satIrical comments when he was with Naruto as well, ironically it seems Itachi may have more "life" to him in death!
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Old 2012-03-21, 20:01   Link #99
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joke and or akward, out of place writing.

on the brightside, i think kabuto might be the only person in the manga to be strong by cunning instead of bloodline.
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Old 2012-03-21, 21:43   Link #100
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I used to muse myself how I could make a lot of elements in Naruto and compare them to Star Wars, and now I'm starting to muse that the Uzumaki clan is akin to the Skywalker family...The only thing missing was an explicit "There is another" line, though thankfully there's no inadvertent squicky shipping (Oh, wait, didn't Karin pretty much drool over Naruto's warm chakra? Fuuuuuuu~)...I just wonder how Karin is going to play into Naruto's overall plan...She's an Uzumaki after all; You don't just throw that name out there and NOT have Naruto come across it...

I also really like Itachi's "Dr. Snakes" moniker for Sasuke...It really is a nice touch between the two, now that they're fighting together as brothers instead of, you know, tearing at each other's throats over family matters...Not to mention Itachi doesn't really have a dark cloud hanging over his head like he used to when he was alive with Akatsuki...And it's weird, since because of this, despite all the dickish things Sasuke's been doing since losing his stuff, I'm actually kind of rooting for him..."The enemy of my enemy is my friend", maybe, but Sasuke's actually alright, when he's not drunk on power chewing the scenery over village genocide anyway...Having big sensible bro Itachi as a counter-balance kinda helps too...I just wonder if/how Sasuke's gonna go back to being an ass, if he's able to talk to Itachi after such a fight...
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