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Old 2012-03-21, 14:37   Link #28221
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I figured it's pretty obvious Krauss had Shannon/Kanon or Genji or something dispose of the body, and instead they sequestered it for Yasu's shenanigans.
I like this theory the best. In EP5, Krauss and Natsuhi were just going to have Kinzo go missing once Krauss got his money back, there's no reason to keep a corpse that doesn't exist.

Actually, that sounds like what Will says in Ep7...
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Old 2012-03-21, 16:14   Link #28222
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yasu was planning to use Kinzo's corpse for her shenanigans over a year in advance?
Um...duh? It's Yasu.
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Old 2012-03-21, 16:46   Link #28223
Wanderer
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Well, yeah I know, but the thing is that at that point Yasu shouldn't know of Battler's future return, or of George's marriage proposal and stuff like that.

She would just "be saving it for a rainy day" (heh).
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Old 2012-03-21, 17:49   Link #28224
Remon
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What if Krauss and Natsuhi buried the body in the forest, but then Yasu went to dig the body back out when the 1986 conference approached? She needs the corpse after all. If there's no corpse then there's no need for the witch. Kinzo can be blamed for all crimes.
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Old 2012-03-21, 17:54   Link #28225
Golden Witch Drugs
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
What if Krauss and Natsuhi buried the body in the forest, but then Yasu went to dig the body back out when the 1986 conference approached? She needs the corpse after all. If there's no corpse then there's no need for the witch. Kinzo can be blamed for all crimes.
Most of the body would have decomposed after a year though, and would hardly be recognized like someone who just died, not even in a scorching furnance.
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:06   Link #28226
Remon
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I've read a bit about that. I believe that it depends on how you bury the body. Usually it takes from few months to 1-2 years for a body to decompose. And that's when you bury it in fairly shallow ground. Burying it deeper, in wet soil and inside a coffin will make the decomposition much slower. The less air can get to it, the better. So I believe this gives the body 5-10 years.
Besides, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to not decompose completely in 2 years
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:16   Link #28227
Golden Witch Drugs
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I've read a bit about that. I believe that it depends on how you bury the body. Usually it takes from few months to 1-2 years for a body to decompose. And that's when you bury it in fairly shallow ground. Burying it deeper, in wet soil and inside a coffin will make the decomposition much slower. The less air can get to it, the better. So I believe this gives the body 5-10 years.
Besides, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to not decompose completely in 2 years
Actually, what is left after a year in the coffin is mostly the skeleton and teeth, and traces of tissues on them. The bones last alot longer in a coffin, however, than it would for example in nature. If you would do a proper embalming, as you often do on honorable people like Ushiromiya Kinzo, he would very much be recognizeable after two years.

Personally, I don't think he was ever buried. After the first year, the siblings were already suspicious that Kinzo might be dead. After a few years they would probably do something like a full scale search on the island (since it's a small one as well). Then it'd be better for them to discard of the body somewhere else, instead of taking that risk. Of course, this completely makes his body appearing impossible.
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Old 2012-03-21, 18:34   Link #28228
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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
Actually, what is left after a year in the coffin is mostly the skeleton and teeth, and traces of tissues on them.
That depends on the factors I mentioned.
It's either buried really deep and remained intact for the 2 years, or was embalmed by Nanjo. One of the two must have happened. Otherwise there would have been a skeleton in the incinerator. What does it matter anyway?
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Old 2012-03-21, 20:05   Link #28229
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I would still say that corpse preservation qualifies as "unknown drugs" though, unless you're using something that most people could easily understand like the freezer idea.
There should be a fridge in Kuwadorian also and people has the habit of saying 'let's entrust things to Genji'.
If Genji says he'll take care of the corpse no one is going to ask him where he'd stuck it. For all they know/care he could use it as his personal Teddy Bear and no one would mind (except maybe Natsuhi...)
Also CSI ranted more than once about not too hard methods to keep a corse in a decent conservation state... but as I generally don't like that part much I always end up forgetting that sort of tricks.

Though I think the truth is we aren't supposed to wonder how they managed to keep there Kinzo's body. I think this is another of those things we aren't supposed to solve... though it's likely not one of the things that happened in Prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If it were me, I'd put him on Krauss's boat, sail somewhere, and quietly bury him elsewhere with as few identifying features as possible. After all, you don't want anyone to find him, and the island is the first place they're going to look for him. The ocean would be the second choice, but getting together all the stuff you need to keep him down there is tricky. The advantage of burying him on another uninhabited island is we already know Krauss has a shovel and a boat, so nobody has to know he did it or when he did it.
I would vote for burning him and mixing his ashes along the ones of his wife if they're on Rokkenjima.
This would give Kinzo a proper resting place and I doubt someone would try to check which ashes are his wife's and which are his.

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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
The scent of "medicine" inside of Kinzo's study that is described in episode 1 could be a hint. Embalming liquids and oils often have a very, very strong aroma that would give anyone a headache. If they really did mummyfy him, and did so inside of the study (For what reason they would do that I do not know, perhaps they felt it was the right thing to embalm him inside the room where he spent so much time) the lingering scents would have probably stayed there for a long time. And none of the visitors were really supposed to go into the study, so it wouldn't be much of a problem, if it wasn't for the scenario in episode 1.
Interesting idea. In the anime there were scenes with Kinzo seated on his chair perfectly still that made me think of a mummy/doll... previously I waved them off as Natsuhi's fantasy but maybe they too were a hint.

And yes, we keep on slamming against the same point.

If Natsuhi and Krauss wanted Kinzo to be declared missing why to store away his body?
If Yasuda hadn't planned yet her mistery game why to store away his body?
If they didn't store away his body how come his body is still around?

The only option I can come up is that it was Kinzo's will to have his body preserved and through Krauss wanted to get rid of it he didn't feel like going against his father's wills... though Kinzo wasn't one to write down his wills or carying for things that would happen after his death (or so he said) so this point too is moth.

Another possibility is that Natsuhi wanted to give him a proper burial/burning/whatever... but would she be willing to risk so much in order to do so?
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Old 2012-03-21, 20:42   Link #28230
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I still think Yasu has it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Yasu shouldn't know of Battler's future return, or of George's marriage proposal and stuff like that.
No, but Beatrice may want it. Get it? Besides, living a triple life like this was probably taking a toll, and Yasu may have been planning something regardless of what actually happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1
though it's likely not one of the things that happened in Prime.
It's funny because things like Kinzo-incinerator and Maria-Rose don't happen in 5-8 but given a lot of emphasis in 1-4. I'm unsure what to make of it right now, but I wouldn't throw either of those events out just yet.

Just another thought. I believe when Clair asked about EP1, 4th Twilight, Will just responded "Illusions to Illusions. Let the man of illusions return to illusions."
It's the only time Kinzo's death was specifically mentioned within the Clair v. Will battle, so when talking about this subject, we should keep that in mind.
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Old 2012-03-21, 20:46   Link #28231
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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
Most of the body would have decomposed after a year though, and would hardly be recognized like someone who just died, not even in a scorching furnance.
Does this really matter? Wasn't his corpse "hardly recognizable" in the games aside from his toes? At the point they find him his body is so destroyed they don't even think to guess when he died.
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Old 2012-03-22, 02:37   Link #28232
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Just another thought. I believe when Clair asked about EP1, 4th Twilight, Will just responded "Illusions to Illusions. Let the man of illusions return to illusions."
It's the only time Kinzo's death was specifically mentioned within the Clair v. Will battle, so when talking about this subject, we should keep that in mind.
I think Will's sentiment with his answer was something like "Geez, we all know there's not even a mystery here, so leave that dead man alone."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yasu was planning to use Kinzo's corpse for her shenanigans over a year in advance?
TWO years in advance, as he was implied to have died near the end of 1984.

Anyways, just restating that someone creating a forgery pretty much HAS to account for Kinzo somehow, and any forgery attempting to capture the same "feel" as the originals will almost certainly not put him out in the open unless they go the lolGoldsmith route.

Also, regarding why Kratsuhi may perhaps have not taken the best measures to ensure their success ... well, this isn't a very satisfying answer, but is it possible they were just ... kind of incompetent in that regard? Outside of a few clever moments, I would say they're presented as the least-intelligent of the Ushiromiya adults. Maybe between the initial schock, and hysteria, and emotional attachments, and Krauss inviting astronauts to dinner, they intended to be more thorough, but maybe just never got around to it. Or didn't think it through QUITE enough. This is their first experience with such a task, after all. I'd hope.
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Old 2012-03-22, 04:24   Link #28233
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Yes, ordinarily that would work, but by Knox's 8th, it is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Was it ever shown that such a freezer might exist on the island? I'm sure there were freezers used to store food, but there are servants who didn't know about Kinzo having died, like Gohda. And, Gohda prepares the food, so he'd know all about what's in those freezers.
Yes. We can assume Kuwadorian must have had a kitchen and food storage facilities. It could easily have had a large freezer, and Gohda and servants who didn't know about Kinzo's death would never have found it.

But if Kinzo's body was being stored frozen (or embalmed...) at Kuwadorian, I'd have to assume either that Yasuda or the other servants in the know were behind the idea. Not that it makes any sense for Natsuhi and Krauss to want to keep such incriminating evidence around in the first place.

Edit: Oh, I see on second reading through the thread that JJ already said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There should be a fridge in Kuwadorian also and people has the habit of saying 'let's entrust things to Genji'.
If Genji says he'll take care of the corpse no one is going to ask him where he'd stuck it. For all they know/care he could use it as his personal Teddy Bear and no one would mind (except maybe Natsuhi...)
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Old 2012-03-22, 07:51   Link #28234
Golden Witch Drugs
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Does this really matter? Wasn't his corpse "hardly recognizable" in the games aside from his toes? At the point they find him his body is so destroyed they don't even think to guess when he died.
A skeleton and a body thrown into a furnace is actually a big difference. A body would still have most of it's skin left in a horrible state, while a skeleton would be blackened and brittle, to the point of the bones actually starting to break down.. If it was just the skeleton left, I'm pretty sure someone would have pointed it out.
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Old 2012-03-22, 08:31   Link #28235
Remon
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But the corpse that appeared was NOT a skeleton (if you want proof just read the manga). So the body lasted enough. EOS. We shouldn't discuss about pointless things.
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Old 2012-03-22, 08:36   Link #28236
Golden Witch Drugs
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That was my point, if it was a skeleton they would have pointed it out, which they obviously didn't. Also, it isn't really pointless, in order for a corpse to appear, there must be a corpse.
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Old 2012-03-22, 08:39   Link #28237
Remon
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But the corpse appeared so it's pointless.
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Old 2012-03-22, 08:46   Link #28238
Golden Witch Drugs
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But you also need to figure out how the crime was carried out.
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Old 2012-03-22, 12:56   Link #28239
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It's funny because things like Kinzo-incinerator and Maria-Rose don't happen in 5-8 but given a lot of emphasis in 1-4. I'm unsure what to make of it right now, but I wouldn't throw either of those events out just yet.
EP 1-4 always follow the same pattern but they're supposed to be mysteries directed at Battler.

The following episodes are something else though. The challenging Beatrice is sort of vanished, replaced by Bern & Erika (note how in EP 5 Maria sees Erika and not Beato while searching for her rose).

Plus EP 5 sees Erika forcing Kinzo to be alive even though it's obvious he's dead, EP 6 accepts he's dead but they don't even bother discussing it and EP 7... Well, the Lion part is an alternate AU where Kinzo is still alive while in the teaparty the murder game never starts, though the siblings say they know Kinzo is dead.
EP 8 is another AU.

In short Kinzo's status wasn't anymore a mystery so no one was interested about it (except for the bit in EP 5 where they knew Kinzo was dead but ignored it to build up a logic that would pin Natsuhi as culprit).
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Old 2012-03-22, 14:29   Link #28240
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It's not so much "Kinzo's alive or dead" status, it's the fact that "Kinzo's body is never found in the incinerator."

I understand Chiru takes a different direction from Ni; EP5-6 are left "unfinished" and 7-8 are like AUs, but it's just interesting to think about.
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