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Old 2012-03-25, 05:22   Link #181
Snork
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There is only one point to remember about WN - it's apparently a recurring event. So in all technicality (and a fair bit of Murphy's law applied )... Kyuubey always has something to hope for. It's not like he'll be leaving the planet anytime soon, anyway.

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Urobuchi supervised this. He specifically said the only route that didn't fit in the context of the anime was the bonus route. That's mean that the "tea party" ending from Homura's route is a canon possibility in the context of the anime.
Oh, Urobuchi-sama, thanks a lot for at least still acknowledging a possibility of Sayaka staying safe and sound! After reading a couple of spoilers in this thread I was beginning to doubt it...
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Old 2012-03-25, 06:59   Link #182
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Triple_R already said most of what I was thinking. Ultimately, both anime and manga makes a point that Walpurgis is THE turning point. After Walpurgis, the rest is, life, so to speak, and at that point Madoka would be prepared to face life without using magic, like most people would do.

It's obvious Urobuchi thought things that way from the very beginning. The fact that in the anime Homura tells Kyoko that she was planing to leave town if she defeated Walpurgis makes that very clear!!!!
Exactly. I honestly find it a bit disrespectful towards Homura and her character to think that clearing the WN hurdle is no big deal. I mean, to say that is to basically say that Homura is an idiot (since she clearly went to great lengths to prepare a massive arsenal to use against WN).

It is a big deal. The anime strongly implies that if WN is defeated without Madoka becoming a Puella Magi then Madoka is likely to never become a Puella Magi.


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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
I wasn't talking about the game, because obviously I can't read any of it.

The reason I think it's the only viable option, at least among the ones we've been shown, is because the anime ending means that whatever Kyubey does doesn't matter anymore. Now without the anime ending, witches still exist--what stops Kyubey from creating another chain of events even worse than what happens with the cast? This is a non-issue with the anime ending, of course--as there are no witches whatsoever to worry about.
You make it sound like Kyubey directly controls witches, as if he was some mad scientist and these witches were robots directly under his control.

Witches are fallen magical girls. Kyubey has no direct control over them. If he did, Mami never would have died (that hindered Kyubey's aims much more than it helped them).

So Kyubey can't "create chains of events". He can try to have events unfold in a way that is beneficial to him, but he can't make something out of nothing. He doesn't seem to have any army or powerful subordinates at his command.

He can merely make the most of the cards that are dealt him. And he typically does that very well, to his credit. But we shouldn't confuse him for some Evil Overlord type that has seemingly limitless resources at his command.

Spoiler for Lengthy replies to AuraTwilight. Put in Spoiler Space to save space:



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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
There is only one point to remember about WN - it's apparently a recurring event.
We don't know how often it recurs though. I would find it hard to believe that it's yearly. If it is yearly, one would expect everybody to know about it by now, and to prepare yearly for it.

So I'm inclined to think that WN shows up, at most, once every fifty years. Any more often than that, and I think that the world would have caught on by now (since WN is viewable to the naked eye outside of a Witch's Barrier).
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Old 2012-03-25, 07:16   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You make it sound like Kyubey directly controls witches, as if he was some mad scientist and these witches were robots directly under his control.

Witches are fallen magical girls. Kyubey has no direct control over them. If he did, Mami never would have died (that hindered Kyubey's aims much more than it helped them).

So Kyubey can't "create chains of events". He can try to have events unfold in a way that is beneficial to him, but he can't make something out of nothing. He doesn't seem to have any army or powerful subordinates at his command.

He can merely make the most of the cards that are dealt him. And he typically does that very well, to his credit. But we shouldn't confuse him for some Evil Overlord type that has seemingly limitless resources at his command.
I never said he was Charles vi Britannia. What I meant was, with the tea-party ending there will definitely be another Walpurgisnacht--more magical girls will be created and eventually become witches as a result of despair taking over them.

Now what I'm saying is all of that is impossible with the anime ending, heck, Homura probably even lost her ability to reset for all I know. Think of it this way: the tea-party ending is more like replacing all the corrupt government officials with honest ones, while the anime ending throws away the entire system making it impossible for corrupt officials to even exist in the first place.
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Old 2012-03-25, 07:28   Link #184
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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
I never said he was Charles vi Britannia. What I meant was, with the tea-party ending there will definitely be another Walpurgisnacht--more magical girls will be created and eventually become witches as a result of despair taking over them.
You're right. That's one of the downside's to the Tea Party ending.

How I perceive the Tea Party ending is "Homura's best possible ending".
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Old 2012-03-25, 09:36   Link #185
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Exactly. I honestly find it a bit disrespectful towards Homura and her character to think that clearing the WN hurdle is no big deal. I mean, to say that is to basically say that Homura is an idiot (since she clearly went to great lengths to prepare a massive arsenal to use against WN).
TBH, I have long suspected that WN is simply invulnerable to all but magical attacks. No matter how massive an arsenal, Homura would always need at least one other Puella Magi with offensive spells to stand a chance.

Quote:
It is a big deal. The anime strongly implies that if WN is defeated without Madoka becoming a Puella Magi then Madoka is likely to never become a Puella Magi.
Of course, that applies mostly to the anime timeline with enough data exposure. And it occurs to me that, since Madoka/QB talk in ep 11, it might not even be a given. It is the full scope of things that helped Madoka realize what she wants from Kyuubey, and since that moment, WN arriving and Homura being in danger were only catalysts. Even if Homura had won, how long would Madoka have lived with the knowledge that "always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you... only to be turned into a lethal monster for all her pain, hopes and trouble"? So much the more that her friend's fate gave her a front seat view on what most of these girls go through.
So "Tea Party" is, like Triple_R said, the outcome Homura was aiming for. Naturally it's in her route. But that would leave the system intact, and it's pretty much the system Madoka was protesting against by the end of the anime. Even though without WN and similar threats she'd have more time to think and hesitate, her not contracting for the sake of changing the system may be far from definite.
Thanks, guys, it's your discussion that led me to these thoughts.

As to canon... There's no problem with any ending in the game since it's a whole lot of "what if"s and is meant to be like that. Arguing is pointless, since Madoka's wish erased witches in every timeline, making all the game routes into pure theory. In the end, there is one canonical world where Madoka is less than a ghost and magical girls hunt demons. However, we do have an official confirmation that all but one route were possible alternate outcomes in terms of the show's logic. Although to conclude again, episode 11 is likely a point of no return. Or more like episode 9 if we dig deeper - see my thoughts on Homura's chances of soloing WN, and even in the case of victory, we need to assume she had a huge stock of grief seeds, for we all remember in what state she finished the battle in TL3 even with Madoka's help.

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I would find it hard to believe that it's yearly.
That's why a bit of Murphy's law is needed for my assumption.
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Old 2012-03-25, 10:22   Link #186
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just found something interesting, Walpurgis does have a grief seed, when playing around with the psp's game file, i found the sprite of Walpurgis's grief seed in archive.cpk\Scene_Griefseed\gs.pac\GRIEF_GS_ICON_W ALP.GIM, here is it


other grief seed here if anyone interested

Kyoko


Mami


Sayaka


Albertine


Charlotte


Elly (Kirsten)


Elsa Maria


Gertrud


Gisela


Izabel


Patricia


look like Kriemhild Gretchen is the only one who don't have a grief seed design yet.
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Old 2012-03-25, 11:11   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
look like Kriemhild Gretchen is the only one who don't have a grief seed design yet.
I don't see Homura's there either.
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Old 2012-03-25, 12:17   Link #188
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Gretchen's grief seed? Best of luck trying to defeat her for that.
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Old 2012-03-25, 13:57   Link #189
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Yeah that's right XD. Try to defeat Ultimate Gretchen in the flash. I couldn't even beat her!!
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Old 2012-03-25, 14:23   Link #190
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She's "forsaking" them in the sense that they now die or become witches instead of simply disappearing. Madoka's wish improved matters, but I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. It's not like Madoka brought normal life back to Puella Magi. She basically spared them the indignity of becoming witches, thus making their heroic works as a Puella Magi have more inherent worth (and less taint) to them.
She also leads them to a heavenly paradise, according to official word on the matter.


Also, cool, Walpurgis actually HAS a goddamn Grief Seed. I've been suspectign for a while that she might not have one.
The rest I'm not responding to because you're being repetitive and contrarian.
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Old 2012-03-25, 15:26   Link #191
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^ actually, I don't feel like underestimating the importance of Madoka's wish changing the fate of others. She doesn't undo the system because first, God knows how it would affect the history (remember Ume-sensei's yonkoma on the matter ), and second, she respects the wishes all magical girls put their lives on the line for. And sparing the indignity doesn't quite describe the opposite: in addition to losing every trace of conscience and humanity and becoming a living web of insanity and despair, a witch can potentially take all the good things the puella magi did and throw them out the window by causing as much grief and demise as the girl once averted. She can even ruin the wish itself in worse cases. Imagine Octavia were left alone; will you guarantee that Kamijou would never be among those falling prey to her someday? There's no sense in saving the day from Godzilla if you become one and ruin the city yourself (figurative as the example is, that's pretty much what the timeline from Madoka's dream was about). Puellae magi give up a lot in exchange for their wish, but with the new system, they can at least live their lives with a meaning.
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Old 2012-03-25, 18:10   Link #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snork View Post
TBH, I have long suspected that WN is simply invulnerable to all but magical attacks. No matter how massive an arsenal, Homura would always need at least one other Puella Magi with offensive spells to stand a chance.
That's an interesting thought, but I honestly hope it's not true, because it would make Homura look kinda foolish, imo. I prefer to see Homura as a very smart and cunning person. Almost like a Magical Girl Batman, basically.


Quote:
Of course, that applies mostly to the anime timeline with enough data exposure. And it occurs to me that, since Madoka/QB talk in ep 11, it might not even be a given. It is the full scope of things that helped Madoka realize what she wants from Kyuubey, and since that moment, WN arriving and Homura being in danger were only catalysts. Even if Homura had won, how long would Madoka have lived with the knowledge that "always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you... only to be turned into a lethal monster for all her pain, hopes and trouble"? So much the more that her friend's fate gave her a front seat view on what most of these girls go through.
I haven't played this PSP game, but I would think that in "The Tea Party" end, Madoka might never find out about "Puella Magi inevitably become witches if they don't die first". I mean, Sayaka is there in that Tea Party end, so Madoka didn't learn about this from Octavia.

So if Madoka never learns about this...


Quote:
Although to conclude again, episode 11 is likely a point of no return. Or more like episode 9 if we dig deeper - see my thoughts on Homura's chances of soloing WN, and even in the case of victory, we need to assume she had a huge stock of grief seeds, for we all remember in what state she finished the battle in TL3 even with Madoka's help.
Your rationale here seems reasonable to me. You're right that these may well be points of no return.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She also leads them to a heavenly paradise, according to official word on the matter.
This is an interpretation of Episode 12 that I've always been fond of, but I never knew it was confirmed. Where was it confirmed? I'd genuinely like to read/see that.
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Old 2012-03-25, 22:14   Link #193
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This is an interpretation of Episode 12 that I've always been fond of, but I never knew it was confirmed. Where was it confirmed? I'd genuinely like to read/see that.
Well, the writer for the manga adaptation of Madoka Magica believes in it, and the writer of Oriko concurs; On top of that, the whole thing with Sayaka in the final episode kind of heavily insinuates it.
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Old 2012-03-25, 22:30   Link #194
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What about the Grief Seed for Homura's?

Come to think of it, what are their witches even called? The only one I know is Sayaka's.
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Old 2012-03-25, 22:50   Link #195
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Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
What about the Grief Seed for Homura's?

Come to think of it, what are their witches even called? The only one I know is Sayaka's.
Mami's is Candeloro, Kyouko's is Ophelia, and Madoka's is Kriemhild Gretchen.. I hope I spelled all that correctly.
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Old 2012-03-25, 23:05   Link #196
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Mami's is Candeloro, Kyouko's is Ophelia, and Madoka's is Kriemhild Gretchen.. I hope I spelled all that correctly.
Neither of us know Homura's witch? She must be some kind of ninja-witch hybrid.

Apparently I can't find her name in the wiki either, must really be a ninja.
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Old 2012-03-25, 23:25   Link #197
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Neither of us know Homura's witch? She must be some kind of ninja-witch hybrid.

Apparently I can't find her name in the wiki either, must really be a ninja.
her witch form is Homulilly
the reason why Homura can't reverse time and become a witch is the hourglass in her shield was broken and the sand spilled out, making any further time loops impossible.
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Old 2012-03-26, 01:42   Link #198
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Well, the writer for the manga adaptation of Madoka Magica believes in it, and the writer of Oriko concurs; On top of that, the whole thing with Sayaka in the final episode kind of heavily insinuates it.
Didn't Shinbo say somewhere that Madoka takes them to the new world?
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Old 2012-03-26, 01:46   Link #199
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Homulilly really does look like something a DJ would use.

DJ Homulilly, spinning the greatest hits from the 80s, 90s, and today.
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Old 2012-03-26, 01:49   Link #200
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Didn't Shinbo say somewhere that Madoka takes them to the new world?
Won't that defeat the purpose of her wish then, considering that the 3 have died and the one mentioned became a goddess.

Too me that doesn't really make any sense unless I'm missing something, I don't know. "Shrugs shoulders"
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