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Old 2012-03-21, 17:12   Link #181
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
You can likely draw out the Key frames in pre-production and tract them into a computer.
Sure but but why consider Key framing on paper part of pre-production rather than production?
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Old 2012-03-21, 19:06   Link #182
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If we're still on the topic of animation and not style for our side discussion here, majority of anime itself are low budget choppy and simple animations.
I'm going to agree with low budget and simple, but not choppy. Anime scenes tend to be static or involve simple motion, but I don't think I've watched an anime recent that was choppy. What motion there is tends to be pretty fluid imho.

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both requires knowledge and skill of acting and staging.
I think the most important thing that requires is time and money rather than knowledge skill.

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Such 'cheats' to cut of corners and save budge in anime persist till now and yet they are demanding so much money for their DVDs and Blurays.
Because they sell relatively few of them and the people who buy them are more than willing to pay hundreds of dollars for even a short series.

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The only thing that anime has over western animation besides pretty aesthetics are the stories, not the writing, but the range of themes and genres.
For the limited genres that modern Western Animation actually has works in, I would say I still prefer anime. Not a literary critic of anything, and definitely biased, but maybe saying that the writing of Western Animation different is more accurate than saying that it is better.

Quote:
EDIT: also I forgot to mention the term 'wriggling lines', that's what we call the imperfect lines of traditional hand drawn animation, it is one of the factors makes traditional animation lively.
It seems that wriggling lines follow a semi random pattern. I don't really care for wriggling lines much, but since there are a lot of people that seem to do, do you think that there will a digital animation software that programatically adds wriggling lines to clean drawings?
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Old 2012-03-22, 03:29   Link #183
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Really,?I was under the impression the vast majority of Key animation was still done with pencil and paper.

Sure the painting and the backrounds are all digital but I thought the basic key animation was still done by hand.
You are correct as well.

The process I mentioned is actually from a video of the production of One Piece anime, I couldn't find the video again though. Generally the process would be similar for most, but different studios would adopt different orders and methods of production.

Some times animation studios can even decide to hire people for specialised jobs, like digitally tracing hand drawn frames, if they could afford that then the traditional animators could stay and hand draw frames.

One famous example of animators trying to adapt to CG was in FLCL, where they mentioned in the anime itself that they spent a long time and budget experimenting with CG animating that they couldn't afford it for episode 2 onwards. They only brought CG back in the last episode, specifically they used it for the manga panel scenes in episode 1 and 6.
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
I'm going to agree with low budget and simple, but not choppy. Anime scenes tend to be static or involve simple motion, but I don't think I've watched an anime recent that was choppy. What motion there is tends to be pretty fluid imho.

It seems that wriggling lines follow a semi random pattern. I don't really care for wriggling lines much, but since there are a lot of people that seem to do, do you think that there will a digital animation software that programatically adds wriggling lines to clean drawings?
Anime scenes become choppy when they do high speed action like Giga Drill Breaker For example. Because of the low 8 - 12 FPS that anime uses, high speed scenes break up to individual pictures and you don't see transitions clearly. Such things are not only noticeable by animators but gamers who play 30 - 60 FPS, they are the people who complain about lag the most lol

I'm not sure if there are or will be programs that adds wriggling lines, but I'm sure it could be done. If a certain director demands wriggling lines in the digital animation, a programmer could get the job done. though something similar have been done with tablet drawn frames, especially if they are drawn sketchily.
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For the limited genres that modern Western Animation actually has works in, I would say I still prefer anime. Not a literary critic of anything, and definitely biased, but maybe saying that the writing of Western Animation different is more accurate than saying that it is better.
Nothing wrong with that, like I've been saying anime attracts this niche target audience that likes the style alot. Even in this thread we have alot of people who prefers prettiness and people who don't like western comedy.

Indeed its a different type of writing and comedy is a big thing in the west which they tend to use alot in animation. Good comedy also requires clever writing and animating as well as audience who understands comedy. And to understand comedy, the audience doesn't only need to understand context but also neurologically they need to have certain developed cortices to process comedy. There are probably genes that directly affect understanding of comedy, genes very likely affect taste as well.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2012-03-22 at 08:03.
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Old 2012-03-22, 04:13   Link #184
mecharobot
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Could someone move or delete the offtopic discussion regarding western animation supremacy?
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Old 2012-03-22, 07:36   Link #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
Could someone move or delete the offtopic discussion regarding western animation supremacy?
meta-topic answer: the way you request this is by filing a report on an example post using the easy-to-spot report button on the left of the post. Simply posting will not automatically get a mod's attention. And no, I'm not a mod...

(I agree the discussion has derailed though the off-topic posts are useful posts for another topic)
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Old 2012-03-22, 11:56   Link #186
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You know I got a question about those design trends in action shonen manga. Granted, it doesn't apply to every action but I noticed that in the 80s, most action heroes have muscles that have muscles and even some women have muscle some them. I noticed that over time the design turned is more over to androgyny where the men are slim and pretty looking. It may be just me but does anyone notice this?
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Old 2012-03-22, 12:22   Link #187
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The shift may have started from the mid 1990s, notably when Tetsuya Nomura of Final Fantasy fame grew to proeminence. In the figthing game genre, SNK opposed line-ups of pretty boys to Capcom's burly men or freaks. But yeah, the mid 90s seems to be the turning point where men gets prettied up.
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Old 2012-03-24, 22:32   Link #188
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I'm finally getting around to watching this one:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=24119

It's nice having a taste of the 80's once in a while.
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Old 2012-03-24, 23:18   Link #189
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Did anyone see the article about the personal trainer who gained 70 pounds and is now working it off, all in an exercise to better understand his clients? It was featured in a few news outlets, but here's the CNN article. It's an interesting story in itself, but the article also discusses the ideal male physique. Supposedly, a heavier frame (read: fat) was desirable in the '50s because it was a sign of wealth, and then at some point the muscled look took over. They say that at the present, the slim, toned look of swimmers is what's considered desirable.

Some people talked about how designs from the '80s had males pumped with muscles, whereas designs of today have more "effeminate," slender designs. I'd guess that there are multiple reasons for that, but society's concept of the ideal body image has been changing along with it, and they seem pretty well synchronized.

I'm sure there are similar shifts in the ideal body form, too. Consider that around the 1920's, one of the idealized forms of women was to diminish the curves as viewed from the front - that's in huge contrast to what we have today, where the curves are accentuated and augmented.

It's interesting to consider that sex sells, but what society considers sexually appealing changes with time.
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Old 2012-03-24, 23:46   Link #190
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^ That ameks sense, I can se that int he character designs of some manga. Fist of the North/Hokuto no Ken characters have muscles in places where they shouldn't be while recent shonen like To aru have some effemiate looking characters.
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Old 2012-03-25, 11:13   Link #191
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
You know I got a question about those design trends in action shonen manga. Granted, it doesn't apply to every action but I noticed that in the 80s, most action heroes have muscles that have muscles and even some women have muscle some them. I noticed that over time the design turned is more over to androgyny where the men are slim and pretty looking. It may be just me but does anyone notice this?
To be fair it IS possible to have male characters who aren't pretty boys or roided up gorilla's that still look obviously like men. Just look at the latest Yamato series. I think it might help that the most blatantly *bishonen* character is still obviously male, and since he has this cocksure expression he doesn't come off as emo.

I also tend to prefer more *proportional* character designs. I tend to not like the proportions those characters have if they're under 6 heads tall. I only really got into the Negima manga when the character design started to shift to proportionally taller designs.

Face wise? I suppose I can deal with the more simplistic anime facial designs, but...I tend to like designs that still focus on a bit more solid facial structure. Female characters getting more simplified faces is ok, but REALLY! Can we remember that they still have noses instead of barely noticeable dots?


Spoiler for Character designs I like:



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Kei's hair is ridiculous. Girls should not have fros. Ever
I am going to hunt you down and comically explode you until your hair turns into an afro.
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Old 2012-03-25, 12:41   Link #192
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
^ That ameks sense, I can se that int he character designs of some manga. Fist of the North/Hokuto no Ken characters have muscles in places where they shouldn't be while recent shonen like To aru have some effemiate looking characters.
I don't really know about calling them "effeminate..." the idea that men are muscle machines was a fad from the time that we were growing up. Being slim doesn't mean feminine. When I think of effeminate tendencies, it has more to do with mannerisms and behavior than physical build. Someone who puts a lot of work into their appearance could arguably be considered effeminate, too. Yet in many anime/manga artwork, the male characters appear to be a bit more coarse than the females, even if they're slim.

In a way, the concept of the ideal man having gargantuan muscles isn't much different than the idea that the ideal woman has breasts that are larger than a person's head. The muscle idealization fell out of style, and based on an increase in various comments that I come across, I'm starting to wonder if we're on the verge of a backlash against oversized breasts, too. Perhaps society will always fluctuate between desiring natural and altered body forms between generations, or as trends grow stale.
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Old 2012-03-25, 12:54   Link #193
Proto
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Please tell me that there's already a post that just said it comes down to whatever you are used to? Like in, any art form? And that discussions over which art forms outside of a technical POV are kind of moot? Please?
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Old 2012-03-25, 13:14   Link #194
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Please tell me that there's already a post that just said it comes down to whatever you are used to? Like in, any art form? And that discussions over which art forms outside of a technical POV are kind of moot? Please?
Oh, I've posted something to that effect at least twice here... I enjoy both art forms if the content is entertaining to me. Hence, why I like, say, Dirty Pair (the great grandparents of Panty&Stocking) as well as Panty&Stocking.

And big-eyed moe K-On! as well as "bug people" L*S and 'old style' Azumanga Daioh .... or realism like Eve no Jikan, Kurozuka. or bishie style like Youkai Otome Zakuro... watercolor like Honey&Clover, etc.

Frankly, the premise of the thread is quite shaky...
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Old 2012-03-25, 20:18   Link #195
xxanimefan4_ever
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
Looking all pretty and shiny does not make a character's design good. All artists should know this. Characters should have a unique trademark that separates them from other characters. And frankly each era has had its fair share of good and bad designs. I really cringed when you based designs based on the prettiness even though your topic has a point. It's like shoving an artist's work in the face saying "JUST MAKE THEM ALL LOOK PRETTY! DON'T PUT ANY EFFORT IN MAKING THEM LOOK UNIQUE AT ALL".

Also drawing pretty characters are relatively easy and don't require that much effort since every part of the design is standard (again all artists should know this). Drawing a character which readers will remember forever is a different thing altogether.

Also if you go for prettiness, would that mean that character designs from Kuragehime suck? Or do you prefer the 90132254534634th Ayanami Rei/Yuki Nagato clone?

*Disclaimer this is basing it on designs not the show itself.
Another thing with the making everything pretty is certain anime would be so much better if they actually did a different character design or animation style just because the genre is horror etc. Like for the anime ANOTHER, it doesn't feel scary or creepy at all. The mood is just not there. I'm sure a lot it can be attributed to the character designs. I feel like if they're too obsessed with making anime look pretty, it actually limits anime. ANOTHER is based on a book so they didn't have to choose that style but they did... I wonder why... hmmm... Another anime is higurashi which I really did not like. If it was the same thing and the animation style was something more horror appropriate I would still be bored (since it's the same characters/plot) but I'm sure mood would've been actually horror/creepy-ish.

So the OP starts off the thread saying oh this anime is so ugly in my eyes.... but what's the point if all anime was pretty... by pretty I mean pretty in your standards. If all anime was pretty then they would all look similar which means it makes anime as a whole more boring and less diverse. so maybe you should be grateful there's variety of drawing styles so that everyone with their own tastes can enjoy whatever animation they like. So basically the world doesn't revolve around you? Being pretty isn't everything in real life and in anime. Pretty anime CAN be bad sometimes when the prettiness encroaches on the anime like if in an attempt to make everything look pretty by the animators all the characters look the same ie crappy harem anime and clannad... or it just kills the mood of the anime (if it's horror or thriller etc).

character design is like everything else... there needs to be a balance. they can't be so damn focused on making stuff look pretty.
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Last edited by xxanimefan4_ever; 2012-03-26 at 17:18.
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Old 2012-03-25, 20:21   Link #196
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by xxanimefan4_ever View Post
Another thing with the making everything pretty is certain anime would be so much better if they actually did a different character design or animation style just because the genre is horror etc. Like for the anime ANOTHER, it doesn't feel scary or creepy at all. The mood is just not there.
Speak for yourself! I thought the first six episodes were incredibly creepy. They did a very good job with the environments and sound. I don't think that character design would really contribute. After all, plenty of horror movies have attractive actors and actresses in them, don't they? I've never heard anyone complain that attractive people ruined a scary movie.
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Old 2012-03-25, 20:50   Link #197
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I don't really know about calling them "effeminate..." the idea that men are muscle machines was a fad from the time that we were growing up. Being slim doesn't mean feminine. When I think of effeminate tendencies, it has more to do with mannerisms and behavior than physical build. Someone who puts a lot of work into their appearance could arguably be considered effeminate, too. Yet in many anime/manga artwork, the male characters appear to be a bit more coarse than the females, even if they're slim.

In a way, the concept of the ideal man having gargantuan muscles isn't much different than the idea that the ideal woman has breasts that are larger than a person's head. The muscle idealization fell out of style, and based on an increase in various comments that I come across, I'm starting to wonder if we're on the verge of a backlash against oversized breasts, too. Perhaps society will always fluctuate between desiring natural and altered body forms between generations, or as trends grow stale.
It's an intriguing idea for further study. Fictional characters, who are often portrayed in an idealized form, may provide a sociological glimpse into the taste of the target audience. If you group characters by the decade I'm sure you'd notice some interesting and rather consistent shifts in character image that correspond to real-life trends.
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Old 2012-03-25, 22:22   Link #198
Random32
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I found Another to be really creepy. The main detractor from creepiness was the over the top funny violence in some scenes, not cute characters.

Have you ever had a horror movie ruined by attractive actors? Same applies here I think.
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Old 2012-03-25, 22:28   Link #199
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxanimefan4_ever View Post
so maybe you should be grateful there's variety of drawing styles so that everyone with their own tastes can enjoy whatever animation they like. So basically the world doesn't revolve around you?
And maybe YOU should learn to express yourself in a less offensive way?
Why are you trying to make this personal against me? You're starting to piss me off with that attitude of yours...

Quote:
Would you chalk up old-school preference to simply nostalgia? Or not? Also, where do you stand and why?
THIS was the f**cking topic of the thread. I don't need people indirectly telling me I'm acting like a shallow snob, thanks.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:40   Link #200
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Gundam Unicorn is pretty good.

Retro style.
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