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Old 2012-03-26, 02:18   Link #20501
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Using examples of murderous regimes that have no application to a modern democratic society to argue against gun control IS misrepresenting a position. Regardless of the stupidity that the US pro-gun control idiots say,
No it isn't.

Quote:
Let's see, so to prevent famines you need guns? Never mind that at least half of those deaths are from wars rather than one-sided massacres? Again, wrong use of examples to misrepresent a position.
Red herring, and you should know that.
The position is quite sound, you just do not agree with it.

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I can understand saying that education is crucial in making guns less dangerous, but the fallacious examples above don't help any arguments.
They're not fallacious, they're valid.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:20   Link #20502
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its much more likely to be needed in the event of a Large Event .... like a super-Katrina or the Big One on the West Coast when civil order falls apart and the national guard can't respond because, oh darn we used them all up in those unfunded wars

I just think a properly informed/trained population is a good idea for a lot of reasons.

No, he's simply saying Democrats were pretty open about wanting to ban all guns in the 80s and early 90s... and it basically cost them the House of Representatives in '94. They've mostly learned their lesson since then. But for them to remember their lesson, there needs to be a viable opposition party instead of these "men who stare at goats" we have that make up the GOP today.

I'm actually more concerned about the Democrat coziness with the "IP, copyright mutation" cabal of the MPAA and their ilk. Two parties, two kinds of problems. To keep either one from running nuts, you play them against each other. I'd rather have 3 or 4 parties, then they'd HAVE to find some common ground instead of "my way or highway" -- and it'd be tougher for the multi-national corporations to buy out all sides.
I'm learning some things about the gun issue here. Maybe what we really do need is just the right education with firearms. Then again, I'm sure it isn't as simple as that.

I don't like the democrats being cozy with the MPAA and RIAA, either. I wonder why they are. Do you think it was from a lot of lobbying to them?
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:22   Link #20503
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No it isn't.

Red herring, and you should know that.
The position is quite sound, you just do not agree with it.

They're not fallacious, they're valid.
Again, please tell me how any of those regimes have applications to the modern democratic societies of today, for example Japan, Korea, Western Europe, etc. Basically, the use of such murderous regimes to justify anti-gun control is a red herring of the highest order, and those advocating the use of such examples are no better than the crackpots who say that guns causes mass deaths.

Basically, stop using invalid red herrings, and get to the real problem: the basic dumbing down of American society leading to misuse of guns.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:30   Link #20504
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Again, please tell me how any of those regimes have applications to the modern democratic societies of today, for example Japan, Korea, Western Europe, etc. Basically, the use of such murderous regimes to justify anti-gun control is a red herring of the highest order, and those advocating the use of such examples are no better than the crackpots who say that guns causes mass deaths.
That's easy.
Those regimes used gun control to disarm their populations.
They then proceeded to engage in democide for a variety of reasons.
With the TSA, the corruption in the BATFE, the NDAA law, the patriot act, the increased militarization of state and local law enforcement, and other police state style laws being passed by politicians of both parties in the US; many see parallels between the actions of the US government and those of previous democidal regimes.

Put another way, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance and/or "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

This book explains it pretty well.
The chart provided is also helpful in understanding the correlation between democide and the gun control issue.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:34   Link #20505
Sumeragi
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Ah yes, JPFO. Enough to dismiss the book.

*Shakes her head*

I know it's not worth bothering to argue with those who are stuck in their mindset, so I'll just take my leave out of this issue. I'll listen to those with sound minds such as Vexx. It's just said that stupidity has infected much of the scholarship when it comes to gun control, where one mingles all different factors into one (gun control) to get the argument they want. It's the evidence being molded to fit the theory, not the theory that changes to the evidence.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:37   Link #20506
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
20mm rifle? That must hurt like a sonofabitch.


I know right.
Never fired anything that big, not sure if I ever want to either.

This one has a great recoil system.

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Old 2012-03-26, 02:41   Link #20507
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Ah yes, JPFO. Enough to dismiss the book.

*Shakes her head*
That's a pity, the book is well researched and covers the issue quite well.
I don't dismiss books that easily.
Articles, blogs, news stories...sure, but books I tend to give a try and check their research myself.
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Old 2012-03-26, 02:53   Link #20508
Sumeragi
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I put JPFO on the same level as Stormfront, so..... you get the idea, never mind that both Aaron Zelman and Richard W. Stevens aren't actually on my list of "possibly unbiased people".


That being said, I treasure my Type 26 revolver. If only I had the ammo for it.
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Old 2012-03-26, 03:34   Link #20509
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I put JPFO on the same level as Stormfront, so..... you get the idea, never mind that both Aaron Zelman and Richard W. Stevens aren't actually on my list of "possibly unbiased people".


That being said, I treasure my Type 26 revolver. If only I had the ammo for it.
I understand your feelings, I feel the same way about some political action groups myself.

However, Sumeragi, you might not want to compare a Jewish organization like JPFO to the white supremist (and very anti-semitic) StormFront group.
StormFront wants the Jewish race wiped out.

I can see you comparing JPFO to the NRA or GOA, that would be accurate, but Stormfront isn't even close and Jews would certainly take offense.
Just FYI.

BTW, I am happy you have a Type-26. Wish you could take it to a gun club in Japan and shoot it.
I have found in my experience that women shoot much better than men, and that once they get confident with a firearm, they are more respectful of it (no macho factor) and tend to be more responsible gun owners than many men.

That said, allow me the indulgence of saying I would love to get my hands on a Type-89:



That's a sweet pea.

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Back to the news:

The Age of the Shadow Bank Run

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/bu...n-updated.html

China unveils new legislation on police powers of detention
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...wers-detention

Obama's disbelief after staring into N. Korea

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/obamas-disb...174551638.html
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Old 2012-03-26, 03:39   Link #20510
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Basically, stop using invalid red herrings, and get to the real problem: the basic dumbing down of American society leading to misuse of guns.
You're absolutely right, but simply taking the guns away is a band-aid on a gushing wound. It treats the symptom, not the injury itself, and it won't even come close to stopping the bleeding.

The problem that needs to be addressed, the other 800-pound gorilla in the room besides universal healthcare, is public education. It has been systematically gutted in America, and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better any time soon unless Americans actually stand up and do something about it.

I personally feel that if you want to own a gun, you should be required to take a training course in its operation, care and the ethics involved in owning a weapon.
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Old 2012-03-26, 03:45   Link #20511
Ithekro
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What did happen to the education system that was suppose to have been setup in the 1960s to produce people for the Space Race?
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Old 2012-03-26, 03:59   Link #20512
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Banning guns has proven to be totally useless.
Even in countries like China and India, so access is a moot issue at this point.
This is simply not true.
There are plenty of nations having success with banning guns leading to far less gun crimes.
Mine included.

It's not impossible to obtain one, but it's very hard.
Going on a killing spree with an assault rifle is beyond very hard in Japan.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-03-27 at 03:44.
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Old 2012-03-26, 04:05   Link #20513
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
What did happen to the education system that was suppose to have been setup in the 1960s to produce people for the Space Race?
It went away when the Soviet "threat" went away.
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Old 2012-03-26, 04:32   Link #20514
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I understand your feelings, I feel the same way about some political action groups myself.

However, Sumeragi, you might not want to compare a Jewish organization like JPFO to the white supremist (and very anti-semitic) StormFront group.
StormFront wants the Jewish race wiped out.

I can see you comparing JPFO to the NRA or GOA, that would be accurate, but Stormfront isn't even close and Jews would certainly take offense.
Just FYI.
Eh, both JPFO and Stormfront selectively use data to the point of falsification for their own agenda. That's why I put them on the same level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
BTW, I am happy you have a Type-26. Wish you could take it to a gun club in Japan and shoot it.
Well, I do have ammo back in Japan, it's just that I didn't bring them to Canada (and I'm not willing to go through the hassle of trying to do so). My gun was from the Russo-Japanese War, and is passed down to me.

That aside, I also have a M1 Garand in Korea, it being from my fiancÚ's grandfather.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
That said, allow me the indulgence of saying I would love to get my hands on a Type-89:
Eh, let's just say that it's not as good as it sounds like..... heavy compared to its size, and personally the lack of recoil makes it actually harder to hit things with. I'm used to longer, lighter, and stronger guns. The Daewoo K2 is my choice if I could choose an assault rifle.
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Old 2012-03-26, 05:42   Link #20515
ganbaru
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Supreme Court weighs historic healthcare law
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82L1CJ20120326
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Old 2012-03-26, 09:54   Link #20516
SeijiSensei
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More and more I think one solution to the problem of irresponsible gun usage is a requirement that gun owners purchase insurance. Most US states require insurance of some form to operate a motor vehicle. Why not guns?

Requiring insurance would place enforcement in the hands of private agencies and avoid the constitutional issues involved in weapon bans. I suspect the policies for things like target pistols and rifles would be pretty inexpensive while those for handguns would cost quite a bit. I also suspect that there would be discounts for people who take gun classes, much the way insurance rates for young drivers are reduced if they take a drivers-education class.

The response to this would be the usual "but criminals won't buy insurance," but they are not the danger I'd like to see insured. It's people like George Zimmerman who feel they must be packing even when the Sanford police specifically told neighborhood watch groups in its jurisdiction that their members are to patrol unarmed and rely on the police to handle potentially threatening situations. Insurers would also have an incentive to request background checks on gun owners and would probably deny insurance to people with a criminal record or a history of domestic violence.

Part of the motivation for stand-your-ground laws has been the systematic destruction of public service agencies in an effort to keep property taxes low. What I see happening is the displacement of trained professional law-enforcement agents with untrained citizens "standing their ground." "Castle" laws are one thing, where self-defense is a reasonable and valid claim against an intruder in your home. Stand-your-ground laws provide a basis for phony self-defense claims when someone shoots another in a bar brawl.

What's especially egregious about the Florida law, which is the model for the law in other states compliments of the American Legislative Exchange Council and the National Rifle Association, is that stand-your-ground is not promoted as an affirmative defense against a murder charge. Rather it enables to shooter to claim self-defense and avoid investigation or prosecution entirely. I believe, in the case of the Florida law, that it also immunizes the shooter from civil suits as well.
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Old 2012-03-26, 10:05   Link #20517
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post


I know right.
Never fired anything that big, not sure if I ever want to either.

This one has a great recoil system.

Hey, a 20mm is no joke. I have seen a real Oerlikon CIS in action before - the firepower is practically an overkill for almost anything - for most situations a .50 can suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Eh, let's just say that it's not as good as it sounds like..... heavy compared to its size, and personally the lack of recoil makes it actually harder to hit things with. I'm used to longer, lighter, and stronger guns. The Daewoo K2 is my choice if I could choose an assault rifle.
IMI Galil for you my dear lady?
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2012-03-26 at 10:19.
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Old 2012-03-26, 10:22   Link #20518
ganbaru
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@SaintlessHeart what's the point for a civilian to own a 20mm ? THat would be pretty much useless for self-defence and would destroy much target if used for hunting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
More and more I think one solution to the problem of irresponsible gun usage is a requirement that gun owners purchase insurance. Most US states require insurance of some form to operate a motor vehicle. Why not guns?

Requiring insurance would place enforcement in the hands of private agencies and avoid the constitutional issues involved in weapon bans. I suspect the policies for things like target pistols and rifles would be pretty inexpensive while those for handguns would cost quite a bit. I also suspect that there would be discounts for people who take gun classes, much the way insurance rates for young drivers are reduced if they take a drivers-education class.

The response to this would be the usual "but criminals won't buy insurance," but they are not the danger I'd like to see insured. It's people like George Zimmerman who feel they must be packing even when the Sanford police specifically told neighborhood watch groups in its jurisdiction that their members are to patrol unarmed and rely on the police to handle potentially threatening situations. Insurers would also have an incentive to request background checks on gun owners and would probably deny insurance to people with a criminal record or a history of domestic violence.

Part of the motivation for stand-your-ground laws has been the systematic destruction of public service agencies in an effort to keep property taxes low. What I see happening is the displacement of trained professional law-enforcement agents with untrained citizens "standing their ground." "Castle" laws are one thing, where self-defense is a reasonable and valid claim against an intruder in your home. Stand-your-ground laws provide a basis for phony self-defense claims when someone shoots another in a bar brawl.

What's especially egregious about the Florida law, which is the model for the law in other states compliments of the American Legislative Exchange Council and the National Rifle Association, is that stand-your-ground is not promoted as an affirmative defense against a murder charge. Rather it enables to shooter to claim self-defense and avoid investigation or prosecution entirely. I believe, in the case of the Florida law, that it also immunizes the shooter from civil suits as well.
As much as I lke your idea, it will probably impossible in the current context to put as requirement to own insurance for the ownship of a gun, the republican and the NRA will never let this one pass, just look at all the problem than the healthcare reform is still getting.
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Old 2012-03-26, 10:40   Link #20519
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
@SaintlessHeart what's the point for a civilian to own a 20mm ? THat would be pretty much useless for self-defence and would destroy much target if used for hunting.
I don't know, enthusiast's shooting?. Seriously, I would rather take a 40mm grenade launcher over a 20mm weapon.
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Old 2012-03-26, 11:24   Link #20520
Ithekro
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Defense against speeding cars?
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