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Old 2012-03-27, 15:51   Link #101
LastOrder
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I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it before, but if you look at the OP carefully

and I'm not sure if it's just me, but It looks like Amata and Kagura are one, like they're the same person.

Like the transition in 0:09 has Kagura/Amata then it changes to Amata/Kagura.

If you look real carefully at the two, they resemble each other a lot.


Also, has anyone noticed the flowers in the main trio's backgrounds? Amata looks like he has a sunflower in the back :P

I'm not sure what Zessica's flower is. I'm bad with flowers x_x

And also, my belief in Amata being Apollo still remains, I mean, if you continue to watch the OP there is a fight scene between Amata and Kagura, in this fight scene, Amata has golden wings on his back, and in that scene Fudo is standing below him. As this scene changes, we see Aquarion shining a bright gold color, with Amata as the pilot.

Spoiler for Amata with wings:


While, Kagura glows red, with no wings, yet Mykage stands below him.

Spoiler for Mikage and Kagura:

So, I think Fudo is going to be preparing Amata until it's the right time to have him fight, and Mykage will be doing the same with Kagura--well he's doing that already.

But either way, that fight scene looks like it's going on in Altair, so maybe it's what we're expecting from the final battle? I mean sometimes the OP give away some hints of some kind so we can guess and break our brains more than we already are.

Then we see Mikono crying for both of them I assume.

I'm going to hang onto the fact that they might be split, both Kagura and Amata.



Also: Does anyone think that Alicia is going to play a major role sooner or later? She needs to awaken, but in order for her to awaken someone must do the awakening.

But what will her role be, I wonder...
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Last edited by LastOrder; 2012-03-27 at 16:24.
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Old 2012-03-27, 17:22   Link #102
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After all Toma only cared about Solar Wings.
ED lyrics really has only one meaning: tragic love.

notices and speculations
Spoiler:


About Lotus in the OP:

According to Buddhist principles, the heart of a person who has not attained enlightenment is the embodiement of a lotus that has not blossomed yet. Once enlightenment has been reached their heart becomes a lotus in bloom.

This is why depictions of Buddha often show him seated upon an open lotus flower.

A common way of understanding the Buddhist concepts of enlightement is told through the parable of the lotus. The lotus grows in muddy water, and yet the dirt and muddy water fall off its leaves and petals, keeping it clean and pure.

LOTUS FLOWER CREATION STORY
Hindus have a creation story with a lotus as well. The lotus flower takes central stage in one of the Hindu creation stories featuring Vishnu. In the story, Vishnu is asleep on the serpent of eternity in the cosmic ocean before there was heaven, earth or anything in between.

The goddess Lakshmi tends to him as he sleeps. Then from the depths of the universe, the humming of om awakes him.

As the long night of eternity comes to an end, a lotus flower blossoms from Vishnu's naval. On the lotus sits Brahma. Vishnu tells Brahma to create the world, which was to last 432,000 years.


Have you noticed that Zessica bullets are flowers in the opening?

Last edited by pingva; 2012-03-27 at 17:50.
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Old 2012-03-27, 17:55   Link #103
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Yeah, the more I turn this over in my head the more it seems like Zen is probably Touma from the original series, but in disguise, and if nothing else he seems to be trying to protect and pass on Apollonius's legacy to a worthy heir in the form of Amata (but with the "reincarnation" angle being wide open at this point).

A new thought occurred to me: I wonder if the reason Mykage has been stealing women is because he's actually somehow deriving energy from their red strings of fate. So instead of draining their life energy (like in the original series as wiki tells me), he's keeping them somewhere and sapping energy from their (frustrated!) romantic fate, perhaps? Just an idea.

pingva: I've been assuming the flower imagery in the OP is telling us Zessica's the *true eve* of Altair (whatever that'd mean for her).
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:10   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastOrder View Post
I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it before, but if you look at the OP carefully

and I'm not sure if it's just me, but It looks like Amata and Kagura are one, like they're the same person.
If Amata is the Wings of Sun, he's an incarnation of Apollonius' wings. While Kagura is Apollo's reincarnation (as has been hinted 1000 times now with Zen joining this hinting). Which explains his lack of smell (he's not a person originally). He wants to protect Sylvia, since the wings were shed by that purpose- to protect her, but it's not necessary making them lovers. They are obviously not actually in love yet after the last episode. Mykage couldn't mess up with them like he did with Jin and Yuhona or Donar and his girlfriend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastOrder View Post
Also, has anyone noticed the flowers in the main trio's backgrounds? Amata looks like he has a sunflower in the back :P
In the opening? The only one with an actual floral background is Zessica? Amata has an abstract background and so does Mikono (before the Altair reflected on the water one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastOrder View Post
I'm not sure what Zessica's flower is. I'm bad with flowers x_x
Gerbera Daisies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastOrder View Post
And also, my belief in Amata being Apollo still remains, I mean, if you continue to watch the OP there is a fight scene between Amata and Kagura, in this fight scene, Amata has golden wings on his back, and in that scene Fudo is standing below him. As this scene changes, we see Aquarion shining a bright gold color, with Amata as the pilot.
Apollo doesn't have 100% golden wings (check out the Apollo's pics that were posted before by lop):

Spoiler for images:


They look more like Kagura's Gnis' wings in the ACTUAL series:

Spoiler for image:


They are a combination of golden+red (Apollo's, not Apollonius').

Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
pingva: I've been assuming the flower imagery in the OP is telling us Zessica's the *true eve* of Altair (whatever that'd mean for her).
Or she's Touma. If Amata's the Wings of Sun (the pure angelic incarnation of Apollonius), wouldn't make sense she's drawn to him? /kidding

Maybe...
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-03-27 at 18:21.
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:20   Link #105
miketyson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Gerbera Daisies
I looked up the meaning of daisy for you guys, and now have no idea where wikipedia's getting its hanakotoba meanings from.

Wikipedia's hanakotoba has this for daisy: "faith"
That hanakotoba website has this for daisy: "逆境に立ち向かう", which I believe to mean something like "facing/struggling against adversity".

So yeah, I have no idea which is right here, especially since either could fit.

Thess: I can actually see that now, seems easy to open a rift between Amata and Mikono now. First have Mikono defends Kagura ("I think he's just confused, but not really a bad guy") then have Zessica confide in Amata about what she's been seeing in her visions.

Last edited by miketyson; 2012-03-27 at 18:22. Reason: response to Thess
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:22   Link #106
Zaresh
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Quote:
Also, has anyone noticed the flowers in the main trio's backgrounds? Amata looks like he has a sunflower in the back :P
Yes, the three of them have something, it's not only Zessica: Amata and Mikono change their background in the OP from a typical scenary barckground to an abstract one. At first I thought they had a theme of flowers in their background: Amata - seeds of sunflower, Mikono - carnation and Zessica whatever that flower is. But then I rewatched it and It didn't really look so floral, so I don't know.

For Amata's and Mikono's pics:

http://i.minus.com/isGc0kDF5kpv4.png
http://i.minus.com/id6PTEe3XpMCN.png

Last edited by Zaresh; 2012-03-27 at 18:33.
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:24   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
I looked up the meaning of daisy for you guys, and now have no idea where wikipedia's getting its hanakotoba meanings from.

Wikipedia's hanakotoba has this for daisy: "faith"
That hanakotoba website has this for daisy: "逆境に立ち向かう", which I believe to mean something like "facing/struggling against adversity".

So yeah, I have no idea which is right here, especially since either could fit.
It's the same meaning. Faith is necessary to obtain victory in adversities.

Although Kawamori seemed to be using the western one the anemone. It was a garden anemone. The meaning is: Forsaken; Withered hopes; Illness. Poor Yunoha and Jin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
. But then I rewatchec it and It didn't really look so floral, so I don't know.

For Amata's and Mikono's pics:

http://i.minus.com/isGc0kDF5kpv4.png
http://i.minus.com/id6PTEe3XpMCN.png
That doesn't look very floral... Reminds me how Apollo was red and Touma was blue in the first series OP, though.

When they want to push flowers, they... just put flowers. They are everywhere! Even coming from missiles.
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:28   Link #108
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They're overlapping but very distinct different meanings if you ask me, but I'm not going to start a serious argument over *that*, . In any case for anemone the hanakotoba site I've been using had "fleeting/transient love" as its "primary" meaning for anemone, which fits even better than the western meanings you've listed. Do you have the remaining flowers handy? I'm getting curious about them now.
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:32   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
They're overlapping but very distinct different meanings if you ask me, but I'm not going to start a serious argument over *that*, . In any case for anemone the hanakotoba site I've been using had "fleeting/transient love" as its "primary" meaning for anemone, which fits even better than the western meanings you've listed. Do you have the remaining flowers handy? I'm getting curious about them now.
They are roughly the same meanings.

Mikono = white lily
Kagura = red rose
Zessica = Gerbera daisies and... tons more in the OP but I couldn't be bothered.
??? = lotus flower.
Black roses (if I remember correctly) = the mourning wedding.

I forgot some.
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Old 2012-03-27, 18:47   Link #110
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Yeah, I'm not going to ask you what all the flowers are in Mykage's garden, , or we'd never get done here. Thanks for identifying these, all flowers look basically the same to me.

For white lilies and red roses there's not as much of a discrepancy. Both sites have white lilies down as primarily purity symbols. The hanakotoba site has a secondary meaning of "elegant/dignified" (which I thought was interesting because *might* apply to her eventually), but I'm assuming it's the purity meaning that's intended.

The "major" meanings for roses in general and red roses in particular seem to be basically the as in the west, and there are too many "minor" meanings -- none of which seem that significant or relevant -- to really bother with in detail.

So it's just the "smaller/minor" flowers that seem to have the discrepancies. Interesting.
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:02   Link #111
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
So it's just the "smaller/minor" flowers that seem to have the discrepancies. Interesting.
Minor in Victorian England, but major in Japan. The major discrepancies happen with flowers that were more wildly popular in Japan than the west with some special appliances (like the Chrysanthemum).
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:06   Link #112
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That's interesting too, I really feel like this is stuff I should know more about, as one of my relatives was a highly regarded western ikebana practitioner(? I don't even know what the right term is), but she's not around to ask anymore.

Is Mykage's "throne" any specific flower?
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:07   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
That's interesting too, I really feel like this is stuff I should know more about, as one of my relatives was a highly regarded western ikebana practitioner(? I don't even know what the right term is), but she's not around to ask anymore.

Is Mykage's "throne" any specific flower?
I'm too lazy to check. Can someone post pics?
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:10   Link #114
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I think I did this right:
Spoiler for Mykage's Chairflower:
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:36   Link #115
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
I think I did this right:
Spoiler for Mykage's Chairflower:
It looks alien...esque, like a mutated lotus flower (those are lotuses under it so...).
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:44   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for Amata and Kagura:
Very nice theory, it makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Spoiler for Stuff:
Spoiler for Zen and Mykage:


Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Lord of Pandemonium: the exact nature of the relationship between Mykage and "that form" wasn't clear. I don't know what the subs put for it, but just going *literally* it should've been something pretty close to "Even now you haven't discarded that form" (I went and checked for you)...it doesn't say it *isn't* his old/original form, but it doesn't say it *is*, either...and under ordinary circumstances I'd say the safest bet is Mykage's original form, but with a series this trollish I'm not going to jump to any conclusions so quickly.

Likewise I'm not sure what the subs had for Appollonius, but the way Mykage talks about Apollonius is very open-ended. When he talks about Appollonius what he said was analogous to saying: "Apollonius, *the* lover from 24000 years ago" (note: not "your" or "my"). To me it sounded less like he was talking about himself and more like he was trying to get Zen angry...and that's how I started to find myself in the "Zen is Touma in disguise" faction.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it until better evidence comes in. I have no clue who Mykage is -- at all! -- but as long as I'm in the "Zen is Touma in disguise camp" I'm going to be thinking Mykage is anyone but Touma. So let's agree to disagree and wait for more information on him, I guess.

In terms of real versus fake and so on: I have an open mind (I'm on team pro-fabulous, anti-emo more than a specific ship...). Clearly we've been warned that some things are not as they seem on the surface -- though did we really need that warning, I wonder, ? -- but on the other hand everything can't be backwards, and some things have to be more or less what they appear to be.

Zen's use of an hourglass when talking about time made a lot of sense. When you flip it over it counts out the same interval of time but things are running "backwards"...so we'll see. But this is why my first reaction to episode 13 was that it was going to force a lot of theory reevaluation; there's now a lot more that's up in the air than we were thinking.
I'm really glad that you feel that there is ambiguity in what Zen and Mykage said to each other. When I read the subs I was worried that since Mykage's character design looks so similar to Toma's that their was no hope that he wasn't Toma. (Which would make me sad, since I want Toma to be getting better, not crazier and more malevolent. )

LOP: Awhile ago in the old single thread you joked about Alicia not being THE Alicia from 24,000 years ago. Ironically I have begun to think this is a very possible idea.

What if Alicia is the original Alicia? If Shadow Angels can live 24,000 years with hibernation, why not half Shadow Angels. Maybe Alicia's husband died, and she hibernated until he was reincarnated? Also this would mean that Amata has alot more Shadow Angel blood than if he was the last in a long line of de Alicias. In "Skies of Aquaria" and Amata's flashbacks Alicia moves much like a normal Shadow Angel, perfect levitation that enables her to never touch the ground. The reason I didn't notice sooner was that she laughs and talks and opens her mouth.

Now that Mykage has revealed himself in the command center, I wonder if Amata will discover that element user =/= person with feathers, and if some of his peers think to distrust him.

I find Amata likable but boring as a male lead, so I speculate about his deep dark past.

I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that Amata is Toma, even though alot of my conviction was from the fact that he looks like Toma.... I think that the forbidden meeting in ep 5 was perhaps misdirection. Was the meeting that was forbidden Mykono-Kagura, or Amata-Kagura, or maybe all three? If I was Gen I would not want a recovering Toma anywhere near a reincarnation of Apollo, especially if he grabbed onto a reincarnation of Sylvia like a drowning man.

I feel that Kagura sort of eliminated my theory that Amata is a reincarnation of Toma in ep 13, but what about a projection of Toma? Kagura basically said that no smell equaled not real, of course this was using his meager logic circuits.

So if Amata is a projection than, Toma, or Apollo, or Aquarion would be the most likely. If Alicia is really Amata's mother than Kagura is unknowingly projecting Amata..

If Amata is Aquarion, than the fact that he is stalked by robots as a child makes more sense.

Oh, in support of Altair is Atlandia, the ruins that Kagura ran through to find Mykage looked like Atlandia buildings to me.

So I will end my ramblings here.
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Old 2012-03-27, 19:53   Link #117
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Kagura is the flower of love.
Mikono is the flower of purity.
The Black Wedding has black flowers... but if you *reverse* them into white (and assuming, for some baseless reasons that they are carnations) you get pure love.

Kagura's power sure makes things fun.

Random overly thought out observations time:
From the ED, Amata has the blank page with Aquarion EVOL written on it, and we've heard of him being the new legend. What better way to symbolize a new legend than with a titled but blank page. Kagura, conversely, has the actual Aquarion EVOL as his companion at the end and he's, quite visibly in story, the old legend.

Add to this that in the OP you have Fudo and Mykage standing inside the Book of Genesis (which is fitting, considering that they are a part of the book's history), Zessica and Amata precede the turning of the page that has Apollonius and some sort of Garden to whatever is on the next page (some cliff) and Mikono. (Which I always thought was peculiar that they threw the book in the middle of the gattai sequence. But turning the page is also symbolic of starting anew.)

Now, I don't recall, but is the book that precedes Zessica in the ED the Book of Genesis definitively or is it merely what we assume is the book of genesis? (I don't remember the original being anything more than an ugly orange tome of sorts but I haven't watched the series in ages.) That said, it is blank when it opens until it comes to Zessica.

Books are another big theme in this story, not just flowers, cards, and donuts.

^Thyme: Sirius existed 12,000 years ago but not 24,000 years ago. He cannot be Fudo if Fudo has been around since the original, original story. The only relevant person who'd know where the Wings were, from that time, is Touma. Sirius also has no reason to be reincarnated. Touma, you could argue, didn't die since he's a very powerful Shadow Angel and, in finally uniting with Apollonius, made it his duty to protect the Wings of the Sun and Apollonius' legacy.

In an aside bit of spec, what if Kagura is only the part of Apollo reincarnated that loved Sylvie?
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Old 2012-03-27, 20:23   Link #118
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Oops, thanks Vena, I didn't remember the timing aspects, so that eliminates Sirius from being Zen.

I am not sure that having no regrets = no reincarnation in the Aquarion universes myself. Shrade looks like Sirius, he loves beauty in music this time, it was flowers in the OS, he has a dark power, and misfortune, which the OVA and OS hinted was related to betrayal in a previous life.

He seems to have extra knowledge about people, simply by sensing their harmony or discord in his music. His eyes narrowed when he first saw Amata, to me he seemed to either recognize or was surprised by Amata. Perhaps Shrade saw that he had no smell.

Shrade seems like Sirius to me.

Vena: If Kagura is the only part of Apollo reincarnated that loved Sylvia, who else is a reincarnation of Apollo? Maybe Zessica? When Mykage sent a vision to Apollo, he got both parts?
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Old 2012-03-27, 20:24   Link #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Kagura is the flower of love.
Mikono is the flower of purity.
The Black Wedding has black flowers... but if you *reverse* them into white (and assuming, for some baseless reasons that they are carnations) you get pure love.
They were carnations? I forgot how they looked like, I have a picture of the petals, so I assumed they were roses. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
From the ED, Amata has the blank page with Aquarion EVOL written on it, and we've heard of him being the new legend. What better way to symbolize a new legend than with a titled but blank page. Kagura, conversely, has the actual Aquarion EVOL as his companion at the end and he's, quite visibly in story, the old legend.
This is a good point. Maybe Amata has the Wings of Sun too, but he isn't Apollonius reincarnation (that is Kagura), but like the Wings, he as descendant is the fruit of that love that has lasted 24.000 years. Who better to be a protagonist?

If Mikono is Sylvia, then is natural that he wants to protect her and he could mistake that for romantic love (seeing that they aren't actually in love so far).
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Old 2012-03-27, 20:27   Link #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post

Add to this that in the OP you have Fudo and Mykage standing inside the Book of Genesis (which is fitting, considering that they are a part of the book's history), Zessica and Amata precede the turning of the page that has Apollonius and some sort of Garden to whatever is on the next page (some cliff) and Mikono. (Which I always thought was peculiar that they threw the book in the middle of the gattai sequence. But turning the page is also symbolic of starting anew.)

Now, I don't recall, but is the book that precedes Zessica in the ED the Book of Genesis definitively or is it merely what we assume is the book of genesis? (I don't remember the original being anything more than an ugly orange tome of sorts but I haven't watched the series in ages.) That said, it is blank when it opens until it comes to Zessica.

Books are another big theme in this story, not just flowers, cards, and donuts.
the book before zessica in ED, it is the exact same book of genesis. look at rena holding it
Spoiler:


also the page where mikono appears in the OP is that of Atlandia. the HQ of the angels. ofcourse it could mean she gets captured like celiane and silvia and gets taken there or something or she is an angel. toma's girly side to be specific and we have been trolled. joking
to be bit more serious it probably has to do with the destruction of atlandia because of apollonius and celiane's love/hate relationship with the angels.
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