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Old 2012-03-27, 17:35   Link #28261
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Assuming that Nanjo is the an accomplice which is very likely. How could he be fooled into thinking that the murders were fake when he confirmed people as dead at times according to Kealym. Not to mention as a doctor, he would be pretty hard to fool.
Well, according to Our Confession, Beato didn't always trick her accomplices into thinking they were playing a game. If it was more convenient or there was some reason why the person wouldn't go along with it, she threatened them with the bomb instead. I imagine that since Nanjo is up close and personal with the corpses all the time, he falls into the "threaten with bomb" category.
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Old 2012-03-29, 09:08   Link #28262
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say, which isn't surprising because what I am trying to say is pretty weird:

Nanjo is an accomplice; there's no doubt about that. He wasn't fooled into thinking some murders were fake. It's just that his motive for lying about them is based on fantasy.

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's just how the stories were written.
1 kilometer wide explosion (while the largest underground nukes craters aren't even half that size) sorta killed the realistic possibility in Umineko's mystery side.
I don't think Ryuukishi is an idiot who just used a random number to say "huge explosion" without knowing what he was talking about either. Clearly, when he gave us the idea of a 1 kilometer wide explosion, he wanted us to throw realism out of the window, or rather to show us that mystery has to do it as much as fantasy does.


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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Now i understand Virgillia's words from EP3, that both mystery and fantasy side exist at the same time.

The gameboards have actually 2 stories running in parallel that were mixed up and had a quite confusing result.

To make it more specific: If we break the story up in who dunnit how dunnit and why dunnit, it probably looks like this:


Why dunnit: Fantasy exclusive element. As we see with Nanjo, who helps Yasu, although there is a high chance that he gets killed by her. He is "her piece".

How dunnit: Mystery exclusive element. No kind of magic was really used to kill anyone on the gameboard (aside from extreme luck in winning gun fights). Or better said: It is FORBIDDEN for magic to be used, as the Knox decalouge is in effect for this part.

Who dunnit: Mixed element. Metaphora are allowed for people, and personalities can have "names", but only if it is possible to interpret them as such. For example (not in the game, I just made it up):
In this room Shanon and Kanon died. Only one corpse is present. No corpse was carried out of the room. And to make sure no one pulls a EP5 Ronove here: A corpse is a dead body and nothing else.
As you can see the meaning of "Shanon and Kanon" can be interpreted in many ways, but the "number of bodies/corpses" can not.
Amazing to see that in the end I'm not the only one who has similar thoughts concerning this. Should try to find these posts but they're years old now.
I considered Umineko to be a "coin" with two sides, mystery and fantasy. It'd be silly to consider one side of a coin to be its real side while the other is fake, is basically what I think concerning this.
And OC really seems to fit with this, talking about 3 stories.
Coin side Mystery, coin side Fantasy, and the coin itself, or if you want what is the story of Umineko itself (which seems to be basically a meta love story).

As for the "how dunnit" and "why dunnit" relation, I mostly think like you do, except I sorta think this was Beato's game and the reason she couldn't win it easily :
There is a why dunnit and a how dunnit for both mystery and fantasy. I believe
Beatrice wanted to make a fantasy story that still requires thinking (and thus a how dunnit of mystery).
When fantasy wins, the mystery how dunnit is crushed, and thus reasoning stops, which is not what Beatrice wanted.
When mystery wins, the fantasy story is destroyed and becomes nothing but a lie, removing the tale that Beatrice wanted to write to begin with.

So basically yeah we're supposed I believe to embrace both.
OC only further convinced me I was right about this as it doesn't care about anything in the mystery outside of the how dunnit.

Furthermore, in the vast majority of cases, the mystery answers we were provided are more crazy/insane then the fantasy answers. Nearly everything that concerns Beatrice 2 falls especially into that.
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Old 2012-03-29, 14:20   Link #28263
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So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.

Of course there are mystery-fantasies and fantasy-mysteries, but that isn't quite the same thing as what's being talked about here.
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Old 2012-03-29, 18:08   Link #28264
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.
Hmm...

What exactly do you want out of Umineko's exchange between Fantasy and Mystery that is different from this?
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Old 2012-03-29, 21:36   Link #28265
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.

Of course there are mystery-fantasies and fantasy-mysteries, but that isn't quite the same thing as what's being talked about here.
Iono, when I watch, let's say, LOTR, I can think about how it's an amazing technical realization and wonder and how they managed to make "x scene" until I learn about it later. This does not conflict in any ways with my enjoyment of said movie's story. Knowing that wizards dont really do magic in it doesnt result in my suspension of disbelief vanishing either.

This normally would sound a crazy way to approach a novel, but the meta-fiction content of Umineko makes this very possible.

As for the thinking part, Beatrice wanted us to think to reach her hidden answers (that we still cant agree at all on), not the technical truth of her how dunnit. She put foward a how dunnit to force to us to start reasoning.

In the end, the murders and the red text exists pretty much for the same reason. They won't bring you the truth but without them we wouldn't even have bothered to start reasoning and trying to find the truth about Beatrice.

I dont think this results in something as confusing or messy as your post seems to suggest. The only thing that remains really hard and confusing to get is the third story.
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Old 2012-03-30, 08:19   Link #28266
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
1 kilometer wide explosion (while the largest underground nukes craters aren't even half that size) sorta killed the realistic possibility in Umineko's mystery side.
I don't think Ryuukishi is an idiot who just used a random number to say "huge explosion" without knowing what he was talking about either. Clearly, when he gave us the idea of a 1 kilometer wide explosion, he wanted us to throw realism out of the window, or rather to show us that mystery has to do it as much as fantasy does.
A similar problem comes with the ingots.
We're always lead to believe they're a huge mountain but actually they should be a mountain of around 91 cm 90 cm 85 cm. Which is a huge amount of gold but not such a huge mountain.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Amazing to see that in the end I'm not the only one who has similar thoughts concerning this. Should try to find these posts but they're years old now.
I considered Umineko to be a "coin" with two sides, mystery and fantasy. It'd be silly to consider one side of a coin to be its real side while the other is fake, is basically what I think concerning this.
And OC really seems to fit with this, talking about 3 stories.
Coin side Mystery, coin side Fantasy, and the coin itself, or if you want what is the story of Umineko itself (which seems to be basically a meta love story).

As for the "how dunnit" and "why dunnit" relation, I mostly think like you do, except I sorta think this was Beato's game and the reason she couldn't win it easily :
There is a why dunnit and a how dunnit for both mystery and fantasy. I believe
Beatrice wanted to make a fantasy story that still requires thinking (and thus a how dunnit of mystery).
When fantasy wins, the mystery how dunnit is crushed, and thus reasoning stops, which is not what Beatrice wanted.
When mystery wins, the fantasy story is destroyed and becomes nothing but a lie, removing the tale that Beatrice wanted to write to begin with.

So basically yeah we're supposed I believe to embrace both.
OC only further convinced me I was right about this as it doesn't care about anything in the mystery outside of the how dunnit.

Furthermore, in the vast majority of cases, the mystery answers we were provided are more crazy/insane then the fantasy answers. Nearly everything that concerns Beatrice 2 falls especially into that.
Hum... I'm all right with thinking that the fantasy side gives some clues but unless I'm mistaking you this seems to go back to pieceYasu/Beato/Shannon/Kanon is either mad in the fragments or she's being without will, manipulated by MetaBeato who have a motive and is showing it through fantasy.

The last, to be honest, seems to be implied also by that forgery that had Battler as culprit merely because people wanted him to be the culprit... and by an ending in Ougon Musou Kyoku in which Battler is again the culprit because Beato said so (or so I've been said) and it can have a sense if we've to consider that this, for Beato was all a game and therefore a piece might have taken the 'culprit' card and be forced to act as culprit.

Through yes, it destroy the mystery or better it destroy the importance of the mystery.
The 'why dunnit' isn't anymore 'why the culprit did it' but 'why Beato wrote character X doing this and that' making more or less meaningless trying to understand the pieces' actions and ask us to understand Beato's motivations.

Considering in Ep 5 Battler wanted to understand why Beato make this or that move it can fit even more... though I'll honestly admit that if that's the case I'm sorry there's not a motive for the mistery side of the story.
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Old 2012-03-30, 09:42   Link #28267
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I think the games are... let's say "overexaggerations that became real".

For example George said that he would eliminate everyone, who would stand before his and Shanon's love (see Alliance o.t.g.W.), but would not really ever do that.

Or maybe Beatrice would kill 6 people, that would be later revived by her magic again and everyone having a happy end. While in the real world they were only playing dead, in the games they really die, because "magic" in another sense becomes true. But this magic is not the one, where you can create fireballs or lightning from your hands, but instead the "human tricks" that she tries to make others believe it's really magic. So if we look at her goal of making others believe in magic, then wouldn't it make more sense to bring the to play dead and then say she "revived them again"? Isn't that more effective than really killing them and putting them in some closed rooms? There are many solutions to closed rooms, but i doubt you could find any explanation for someone "rising from the dead" aside from them having played dead or that "a mircale occured". So what I want to say is, that a big part of the content is metaphorical and has content, that for some people may be more worth, than just finding the murder, his methods and his reasons for murder.

Also if you remember, Battler called the gameboard a "love letter" from Beato to him. But that cannot be the mystery, because that is something that the whole world got to know about. So there must be a "hidden element" in it that was adressed only to him. I think that is the difference between Battler's and Will's reasoning. While Will found the motive of the "killer" on the gameboard, Battler went further and found the motive of the author.
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Old 2012-03-30, 10:51   Link #28268
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Considering the idea that piece Beato is aware of being a fictional character...

I think thats right. That's why Shannon and Kanon consider themselves furniture. They are only roles for a story, fictional character. They do not have any freedom, nor any rights. They clearly do not have any future and must serve and be grateful until they are thrown away.
This fits very well with fictional characters aware of being so.
Beatrice is implied constantly to be partially a furniture as well.

Furthermore, I think the golden land and the meta-world are basically the same thing. Rather the golden land lies in accepting it.
I think its a sort of ultimate breaking the fourth wall world where there isnt any more distinction between fictional and real. I guess, its sorta like some anime that has the entire cast (including all the dead characters) going in vacation after the story is over, or other such thing (actually I just remembered arc 8 does something ridiculously similar to that).
In Uminekos case its more pertinent however as there are various levels of story.
You know like that story about a couple that became animals during the day/night and thus couldnt ever be together? Think about Battler being stuck in the level of mystery and beatrice on the level of Fantasy, seperate world stories, and they can only meet in that upper meta-world where such distinctions doesnt matter and I think it results in an intersting love story.

Edit: Also I think its possible that we got it all wrong. The mystery scenes are as figurative as fantasy scenes.
Beato and Battler not being together, to use my example, is a Meta-truth, and is absolute.
On the mystery side, to keep that relation, a story needs to exist to explain why Yasu and Battler arent together.
The mystery story, however, would be a fiction that represents that above truth.
It only makes sense, because Umineko is a fiction, and writers puts into their fictions stories based on things they lived, not the other way around.
So its like Ryuukishi translated as Beatrice translated as Yasu.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-03-30 at 11:09.
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Old 2012-03-30, 11:16   Link #28269
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I think that your interpretation of the idea is wandering far afield. It's fine to speculate on it, but what specifically backs it up? "I can't explain it, therefore there was probably a meta-motive" is insufficient; it should be possible to demonstrate that the only motive which can function is a meta-motive. I'm thoroughly unconvinced that such a thing is true for any character, no matter how they're portrayed.

That aside, the mere fact a character is fictional and knows it doesn't actually mean they have to be motivated by meta-fictional elements.
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Hmm...

What exactly do you want out of Umineko's exchange between Fantasy and Mystery that is different from this?
Need I want something, or can I not just be disappointed?
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Old 2012-03-30, 12:03   Link #28270
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Well from my pov its a matter of theme and emphasis of the story.
Even arc 7 that dealt with Yasu's motives had little to do with actual murder.
So it's more I cannot reach a decisive conclusion concerning the pieces' motives and the story itself does not seem to care much about such a thing, and especially Battler who figured things out.
Arc 5 and 6 in particular seems to put a huge emphasis on the murder part not being the motives we're seeking. I mean, did you ever get the feeling that arc 6 was related in any ways to understanding why did piece-Erika murder the ones she murdered or why did everyone fake their death?

I think the problem overall here is more related to thinking that as a meta-fiction, Umineko basically says the obvious in most cases.
But I think that obvious sorta falls into the same category as "people die when you kill them" (Fate) meaning that something being obvious can still be worth to seriously consider and not ridiculised, even tho it's easy and tempting sometimes to do so.

What I do not get tho is why you dislike this considering your theory about the meta-world where Battler was an experiment created by Featherine and what else.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-03-30 at 12:14.
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Old 2012-03-30, 12:09   Link #28271
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That rather selectively ignores much of ep7.
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:05   Link #28272
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Well, we already compared Umineko to a metaphor more than once.

So we could see it like that. The incident really happened and Yasu and Battler survived becoming Ikuko and Toya. Ikuko began writing forgeries in which ShKannon was the culprit in hope Toya (who was helping her) would guess why she was doing it. Somehow Toya's brain translated it into a meta battle between his Battler self and Beato while the various stories became 'fragments'.

In short the mystery at which Battler/Toya is challenged isn't the murdering one but figuring out the writer's motivations so the motive EP 7 offered (playing a murder game with Battler) would be the motive behind Yasu the writer and Battler is supposed to guess why she's applying to PieceYasu as it's obviously a weak motive to make a mass murder.

And... hum... wasn't it said/implied that in Our Confession the culprit has a meta motive?

Also... has someone even thought the numbers we're given in EP 7 2,578,917/2,578,916 might be some sort of code message/have a meaning?
I mean, Umineko is full of number messages (Toya's name and penname, the same is applied to Ikuko, there are numbers involved in the epitaph riddle and there's a number in Ep 3) so is it possible that those numbers in Japanese might be read in a way that is meaningful?
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:07   Link #28273
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say, which isn't surprising because what I am trying to say is pretty weird:

Nanjo is an accomplice; there's no doubt about that. He wasn't fooled into thinking some murders were fake. It's just that his motive for lying about them is based on fantasy.

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's just how the stories were written.
So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.


I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy.
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:18   Link #28274
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So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.

I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy.
I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.

In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:54   Link #28275
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What I do not get tho is why you dislike this considering your theory about the meta-world where Battler was an experiment created by Featherine and what else.
That idea is a PARODY, mind you.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:08   Link #28276
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.

In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.


That's right. I tried to make the point plently of times already, that the character's behavior differ a lot between WTC3 and WTC4.

And even the "protagonist" of the story, Battler, did so.

Erika stated in EP6, that the witches game toughed Battler up, however she realized that she was talking to PieceBattler then, who did NOT go through the witches' games. In other words, even the PieceBattler from the first Episodes is different from the latter Episodes.

Same for Beato and Kinzo. In WTC3 they were the really, really "bad guys" and then both suddenly made a "Heel Face Turn".

And this is a point that is not only reduced to "reliable scenes vs fantasy scenes". Even when comparing the scenes with the detective present, there are changes in behaviour between the Episodes.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:08   Link #28277
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.
Bern's game was meant to be be a portrayal of the worse possible truth to Ange. The point of Beatrice's games is to both misdirect and direct Battler to the truth.

Motive is large part of that, in fact the heart of all the games. The motive for the murders is within the first four EP like Will said IIRC.

Quote:
In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.
Although Nanjo has been lying about someone's death the whole time. Have you forgotten that he lied about Kinzo's death many times in front of the siblings. More so that he also helped covered up Kinzo's deeds from not revealing the existence of Kinzo's mistresses(which included his own daughter). It does not seem OOC.

Also why is it is OOC for Shannon keep in mind that the person who we know as Shannon shares a heart and body with Kanon and Beatrice.

Given that they serve Beatrice and always seem to get killed when confronting her that she is the personality in control as far as the games. As shown that Beatrice can kill and resurrect them like she did in EP3. Interestingly enough on the Meta level, it was also shown that Meta Beatrice is extremely good at acting to fool others like she did to Meta Battler.

What is OOC for Shannon like murder is possible for Beatrice. While other actions like a lover suicide is in character for Shannon for example in EP2.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:20   Link #28278
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I think it's relevant to the fantasy/meta motive discussion, so here's the end of Our Confessions (translated/summerized by LyricalAura):

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Spoiler for 4th Twilight:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Need I want something, or can I not just be disappointed?
Disappointment implies expectations not met, does it not?

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.

I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy.
Yes, this is definitely an interesting exchange when considering fantasy motive.

There are a couple things I would like to mention about it, though. First: It was Eva-Beatrice, not Beatrice, who made motive a game issue. Beatrice had ample opportunities to post similar challenges to Battler, but never did. Second: I'm not saying that all motive is based on fantasy, just Yasu's motive for murder (and perhaps that of her accomplices in helping her). Kyrie's case in EP3 would likely be different.

To basically restate what jjblue1 has just recently suggested, you could say that Beatrice is ignoring the murder motive on purpose, specifically so that Battler could realize that there actually isn't one. In other words, the fact that Battler is directed to think about motive, and that Will places so much attention to motive is precisely because the reader is supposed to realize that the fictions lack a satisfying motive and that there is no "better" answer than "Nanjo was controlled by a witch". After all, Yasu/Hachijou unilaterally wrote Nanjo that way without the real Nanjo having any kind of say in the matter. And let's also not forget he's called a "piece": Pieces in games don't control themselves; they are controlled by the people playing the game.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:34   Link #28279
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Bern's game was meant to be be a portrayal of the worse possible truth to Ange. The point of Beatrice's games is to both misdirect and direct Battler to the truth.
You're justifying Rudolf and Kirye's actions through the meta motive that Bern wanted to hurt Ange.

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Motive is large part of that, in fact the heart of all the games. The motive for the murders is within the first four EP like Will said IIRC.
Whatever motive you pic the point is Beato's game portray Shannon as capable to murder everyone, herself included. We've been fighting over how the motive offered by Ep 1-4 (and confirmed by EP 7 and Our confession) didn't seem good enough and many of us agreed it's highly unlikely she would actually be capable of killing in the real prime.
If Bern forced Rudolf and Kirye to act that way for a motive that's not realistic enough why shouldn't Beato do the same with Shannon, giving her a motive that, simply put, is weak?

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although Nanjo has been lying about someone's death the whole time. Have you forgotten that he lied about Kinzo's death many times in front of the siblings. More so that he also helped covered up Kinzo's deeds from not revealing the existence of Kinzo's mistresses(which included his own daughter). It does not seem OOC.
I'm not saying Nanjo isn't a liar... but there's a huge difference between covering the natural death of Kinzo and the fact he had a mistress and a secret daughter and aiding a serial murderer.

I'm not saying he did the good thing at lying previously but I can understand his actions... while if he were to aid the culprit... well... the gravity of his lie changes radically...

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Also why is it is OOC for Shannon keep in mind that the person who we know as Shannon shares a heart and body with Kanon and Beatrice.

Given that they serve Beatrice and always seem to get killed when confronting her that she is the personality in control as far as the games. As shown that Beatrice can kill and resurrect them like she did in EP3. Interestingly enough on the Meta level, it was also shown that Meta Beatrice is extremely good at acting to fool others like she did to Meta Battler.

What is OOC for Shannon like murder is possible for Beatrice. While other actions like a lover suicide is in character for Shannon for example in EP2.
Are you saying that Yasuda suffers of multiple personalities or am I misunderstanding you?

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
That's right. I tried to make the point plently of times already, that the character's behavior differ a lot between WTC3 and WTC4.

And even the "protagonist" of the story, Battler, did so.

Erika stated in EP6, that the witches game toughed Battler up, however she realized that she was talking to PieceBattler then, who did NOT go through the witches' games. In other words, even the PieceBattler from the first Episodes is different from the latter Episodes.
Well, I always found pretty interesting how Battler in Ep 1-4 didn't know how to deal with the epitaph (he didn't even know which city Kinzo would consider as his beloved hometown) then he suddently solved it in EP 5 and the reason for how he could do it is that Bern was moving PieceBattler... which is a meta motive...
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Old 2012-03-30, 16:19   Link #28280
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I think it's relevant to the fantasy/meta motive discussion, so here's the end of Our Confessions (translated/summerized by LyricalAura):
Hm, that is certainly interesting but it does confirm the motive that has been established regarding the epitaph.

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Yes, this is definitely an interesting exchange when considering fantasy motive.

There are a couple things I would like to mention about it, though. First: It was Eva-Beatrice, not Beatrice, who made motive a game issue. Beatrice had ample opportunities to post similar challenges to Battler, but never did. Second: I'm not saying that all motive is based on fantasy, just Yasu's motive for murder (and perhaps that of her accomplices in helping her). Kyrie's case in EP3 would likely be different.
Beatrice direct and misdirects Battler, that is her role as a game master who is aiming to lose. The reason why EP3 was made in such a way because Battler was having too much difficulty with the games. Eva-Beatrice was also a part of the game that Beatrice made.

Motive was never an issue because Battler was having enough trouble with the Whodunnit and Howdunnit. Even with when the issue of Whydunnit came up, Beatrice helped him through it.

Like I said, saying that motive is fantasy within the very story it is trying to tell is more like what the witch side would do.

Quote:
To basically restate what jjblue1 has just recently suggested, you could say that Beatrice is ignoring the murder motive on purpose, specifically so that Battler could realize that there actually isn't one. In other words, the fact that Battler is directed to think about motive, and that Will places so much attention to motive is precisely because the reader is supposed to realize that the fictions lack a satisfying motive and that there is no "better" answer than "Nanjo was controlled by a witch". After all, Yasu/Hachijou unilaterally wrote Nanjo that way without the real Nanjo having any kind of say in the matter. And let's also not forget he's called a "piece": Pieces in games don't control themselves; they are controlled by the people playing the game.
I have to disagree there. The point that Will was trying to make is that to solve a mystery one has to understand the person as well with the whole "don't forget the heart" as well Will saying(IIRC) "understanding Kinzo's heart, it is possible to reach this conclusion".

The whole games that Beatrice made was made to understand the heart of Beatrice. Understanding the heart of Beatrice allows one to understand the mysteries of all of the games. That is why Battler kept antagonizing over Beatrice's mindset throughout EP5 on why characters acted as they did.

Nanjo is a piece but piece of the puzzle to solve Beatrice's puzzle that she presented to Battler. Or better said that the author presents to the readers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
You're justifying Rudolf and Kirye's actions through the meta motive that Bern wanted to hurt Ange.
This was about pieces being OOC within the first four games like Nanjo unless I lost track of things.

The games are portrayed as both mysteries and fantasy that is meant to direct one towards an overall truth. If the first four games have the same characters and same game master, why should the motives be made up as well?

Quote:
Whatever motive you pic the point is Beato's game portray Shannon as capable to murder everyone, herself included. We've been fighting over how the motive offered by Ep 1-4 (and confirmed by EP 7 and Our confession) didn't seem good enough and many of us agreed it's highly unlikely she would actually be capable of killing in the real prime.
If Bern forced Rudolf and Kirye to act that way for a motive that's not realistic enough why shouldn't Beato do the same with Shannon, giving her a motive that, simply put, is weak?
First of all, what do really know about "real Shannon" anyway. The most that we discover about her is within EP 7 where we are suppsoe to discover the motive for the crime.

If the motive is weak then perhaps it is because you lack love


Quote:
I'm not saying Nanjo isn't a liar... but there's a huge difference between covering the natural death of Kinzo and the fact he had a mistress and a secret daughter and aiding a serial murderer.

I'm not saying he did the good thing at lying previously but I can understand his actions... while if he were to aid the culprit... well... the gravity of his lie changes radically...
Really the gravity of Kinzo's deeds is not that he had a secret daughter. The gravity of the issue is that he used abused his daughter by lying to her about her situation, holding her confined within the mansion to be his own, not giving her the chance to seek out her own identity past "Beatrice" and having sex with her to satisfy his own emotional and physical needs.

Possible it was out of loyalty for Kinzo or Nanjo with enough pressure has no problems to aid such actions.

Basically if someone were to put enough pressure on Nanjo, why wouldn't he aid a serial murderer?

Quote:
Are you saying that Yasuda suffers of multiple personalities or am I misunderstanding you?
I mean as far as the first four games go that the three of them are within the same body. That much is hinted often such as "confrontation" in EP1 and the "revival scenes" in EP3.
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