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Old 2012-03-27, 14:28   Link #21
queenSwild
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I've actually started to like Kagura more. He was hilarious this episode when interacting with Mikono. His happy face was so cute. :P If he shows more and more of this new found "playful" side instead of his king kong "destroy it all" side then he'd become one of my favorites.
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Old 2012-03-28, 10:55   Link #22
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I wonder if they'll develop his relationship with Mikono.
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Old 2012-03-28, 21:28   Link #23
justavisitor
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I seriously hope not....I don't know whether his message means the opposite way, but come on, mikono and amata clearly like each other, why interferes? he might be a cool guy 12000 years ago, but this time around he is just a weirdo...please keep him away from Mikono XD...There is always another 12000 years

Unfortunately tho he still has a big role to play in future episodes...but up until now, he is just a dangerous and insane person. His action is creepy, his speech is creepy, and his intention (if he really means it) is absolutely horrible XD
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Old 2012-03-28, 23:13   Link #24
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But, but did you see his expression?
He really looks like he cares for her.
I'd feel sorry for him if he can't get his way with her.
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Old 2012-03-29, 01:16   Link #25
Zuul
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I seriously hope not....I don't know whether his message means the opposite way, but come on, mikono and amata clearly like each other, why interferes? he might be a cool guy 12000 years ago, but this time around he is just a weirdo...please keep him away from Mikono XD...There is always another 12000 years

Unfortunately tho he still has a big role to play in future episodes...but up until now, he is just a dangerous and insane person. His action is creepy, his speech is creepy, and his intention (if he really means it) is absolutely horrible XD
Because it's not interesting from a storytelling POV.

Amata romancing Mikono for 26 episodes straight without any kind of struggles or challenge.

It sucks.



BTW : I support KaguMiko because I can.
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Old 2012-03-29, 01:45   Link #26
cyberdemon
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I seriously hope not....I don't know whether his message means the opposite way, but come on, mikono and amata clearly like each other, why interferes? he might be a cool guy 12000 years ago, but this time around he is just a weirdo...please keep him away from Mikono XD...There is always another 12000 years

Unfortunately tho he still has a big role to play in future episodes...but up until now, he is just a dangerous and insane person. His action is creepy, his speech is creepy, and his intention (if he really means it) is absolutely horrible XD
well there is still the wedding in mourning clothes to deal with but even in that Mikono looks rather unhappy. Likely she's being forced into that situation.
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Old 2012-03-29, 03:06   Link #27
Misslaly
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I love this guy, want to see more about him. He is my favorite and I wouldn't like to see him with Mikono.
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Old 2012-03-29, 07:14   Link #28
justavisitor
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@theflyingturkey
When Kagura caught mikono, my impression was that a psycho finally got the victim and was going to tear the poor victim into many pieces...(perhaps I shouldn't have watched the show in midnight XD)

@Zuul
Exactly...plus it's from macross's director ....sometimes I would prefer straight romance tho

@cyberdemon
True, so I guess Kagura will eventually got his hand on mikono...oh well, they are called abductors for a reason and it would be hilarious if they can't even abduct one important person throughout the entire series XD (Somehow I have a feeling that Zessica may let that abduction happen because she is jealous...)
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Old 2012-03-29, 08:03   Link #29
Zuul
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@theflyingturkey
When Kagura caught mikono, my impression was that a psycho finally got the victim and was going to tear the poor victim into many pieces...(perhaps I shouldn't have watched the show in midnight XD)

He reminded me of a big dog celebrating his master's return.XD
I find the scene heartwarming despite the stressed Mikono.

I think people who have had dogs can see that.
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Old 2012-03-29, 10:59   Link #30
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Big dogs pull off some loin king poses to celebrate their masters return?

AWESOME. I NOW HAVE ANOTHER REASON TO GET A DOG!
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Old 2012-03-29, 11:07   Link #31
Zuul
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Big dogs pull off some loin king poses to celebrate their masters return?

AWESOME. I NOW HAVE ANOTHER REASON TO GET A DOG!
Not literally.XD

They just are all brutal in their way of showing how much they love you. Like jumping on you in spite of the fact they weight 50 kg.
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Old 2012-03-29, 12:10   Link #32
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Lol people saying they would want to trade places, yeah right. So a completely random person comes up to you and say you're a witch/bitch/whench/whatever and that he hates you and that he wants to crush you with the look of a dog and you would think he actually loves you and treat you with respect?

He is annoying. Amata is annoying as well with his beta attitude but it's less annoying imo.
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Old 2012-03-29, 13:41   Link #33
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@cyberdemon
True, so I guess Kagura will eventually got his hand on mikono...oh well, they are called abductors for a reason and it would be hilarious if they can't even abduct one important person throughout the entire series XD (Somehow I have a feeling that Zessica may let that abduction happen because she is jealous...)
If it was the normal Zessica then i'd somewhat disagree but Mikage has been shown to manipulate people's emotions. and she's showing some rather dark ones the last few episodes. I always figured eventually it would somehow happen though with the dark version in the mirror in the ending.

a thought on Kagura and Mikono. Everyone says Amata and Mikono is weak because it seems so innocent but i doubt Kagura would be any different in fact he'd probably be an even worse innocent than Amata. I'd doubt Kagura would really know what to do with Mikono even if he got her. He probably doesn't even know what sex is. He's the type to grab something and hold onto it tight but never do anything with it. He may seem serious and mature normally but we see in 13 that he's basically a little kid when it comes to Mikono.
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Old 2012-03-29, 14:21   Link #34
miketyson
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I find him a bit unpleasant of a character and I don't generally like the "beast man" archetype but at least Kagura's an *interesting* character. I'd rather have interesting characters I don't like than boring characters I do like, especially on the "villain" side, so I have to give credit to his creators.

One thing about him is that -- especially when compared with Amata -- Kagura just doesn't seem to have that many possibilities for what he could *be* in the story. With Amata it's still wide open -- nobody? reincarnation? "minor character" reincarnation? descendent? -- but with Kagura it's hard to see what he could be other than (a) a reincarnation or (b) some kind of clone/"mumble-mumblde that split-off-from-Amata". Beyond that, I just can't see it; I doubt he's part shadow-angel, I doubt he's some random normal guy Mykage abducted (and did lots of cosmetic surgery on), and so on...so even though what he is is up in the air, the range of what he could be seems not that wide.

On that note: I wonder if we're being "reverse-trolled" by Kagura's "reverse" power. I'm sure it works as advertised, but I wonder if in fact he *isn't* talking in reverse. Instead, it's what he *wants* that's been "reversed" (from what the audience would think, at least), for reasons we'll find out later. (EG: I can kinda see him being a reincarnation who's tired of reincarnating over and over, and is looking to find his "Sylphie", die together, and thereby finally escape from that cycle...wanting that either "naturally" or due to Mykage's manipulations).
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Old 2012-03-29, 16:01   Link #35
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On that note: I wonder if we're being "reverse-trolled" by Kagura's "reverse" power. I'm sure it works as advertised, but I wonder if in fact he *isn't* talking in reverse. Instead, it's what he *wants* that's been "reversed" (from what the audience would think, at least), for reasons we'll find out later. (EG: I can kinda see him being a reincarnation who's tired of reincarnating over and over, and is looking to find his "Sylphie", die together, and thereby finally escape from that cycle...wanting that either "naturally" or due to Mykage's manipulations).
You are right, reversal is a perfect power for someone who is fed up with this reincarnation business. After all this power means that a person wants a change in his life.
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Old 2012-03-29, 16:20   Link #36
Vena
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I don't actually understand much of the dislike for Kagura (well, that's not entirely true as I understand critique of his rather flat character but, then again, most of our cast is pretty flat and to a degree that's understandable*) and I cannot help but think that it might just be the underpinnings of bias and shipping that paint him in such a negative color for many people. It cannot be helped, I guess, but it is a bit unfortunate.

From here, in a way, I'm also framing this as a reply to mike's comment above... and there's likely going to be a lot of coming and going talk about Amata.

I enjoy the duality of how Kagura's and Amata's powers *seem* to be shown. Amata gets a boner (courtesy of Mikono or Zessica) and goes flying. Kagura gets a boner (courtesy of Mikono) and starts to speak inverted gibberish. I've heard of being tongue-tied because your nervous on your first date but Kagura takes this to a whole new level and entirely flips speech patterns because of how anxious and ecstatic he is on his Lion King inspired first date. I'd prefer if the story kept it this way, honestly, (no red herrings or shenanigan that are ever so possible with the reincarnation back story hanging loosely over everyone's head) because the most recent reveal puts much of his past speech in a different light and gives him an unique, at the very least, flavoring as a character. There's an almost cathartic childish innocence buried under all of that lustful insanity... almost.

If he's given some more screen time, some actual time to interact with Mikono, I can see his character start to actually grow. (Shipping aside, and where my previous * may come in as a bit of a "read from here and keep what I said before in mind" footnote) Kagura's character desperately needs a few episodes of time to interact with Mikono such that his well packed luggage from the last thirteen episodes can gain some substantially to it. Thus far its only been played up as *the villain's motive* to introduce conflict for robot action(!) but there's little actual value to the whole thing and is more of a *monster of the week with some mysterious connection to a character* than anything else (his suitcase is currently packed with blank paper, all the possibilities but no value). Conversely, and now I site my *, Amata's character could probably do well to spend some with without Mikono...

-Let's take a break to breathe, and if shipping is your forte you may want to turn back now.-

...And again we hit another duality on our two main male leads: Their character development has (entirely for Kagura, almost entirely for Amata as the latter has some connections with others: Andy and Zessica, the former of whom I feel is responsible for a very good chunk of Amata's growth as a character) centered on Mikono. Kagura is the ever desperate chaser, Amata is the ever present defender (and both of them are, to varying degrees, flat because of it). Its a common theme of stories, though EVOL seems to have flipped it with the hero being the one to win time and again, and the villain left to try and try again. Its like they took the *rescue your princess* plot and exchanged Mario for Kagura and Bowser for Amata (and the rest of the cast is basically: MIX-Whomp, Yunoha-Boo, Jin-Koopa, Andy-Pirahna Plant, Zessica-Hammer Bros, Cayenne-Bullet Bill, and Shrade-Bowser Jr.)... except Amawser also happens to be hopped up on Star Power.

But let's take a step back from the colorful Mario metaphors and talk of our two main male leads: We've known Amata intimately for the past thirteen episodes but, aside from issues with his mother and his relationship with Mikono, we actually know nothing about him and his motivations (as has been made painfully clear over the last four or so episodes) boil down to the inverse of Kagura's motivation and little else. He's just as single minded of purpose, as Kagura, but his saving grace is that every other important character (bar two) is also on his side and has been interacting with him, allowing his character to branch out. If you were to put Amata and Kagura, with Mikono, in a vacuum (which is a fallacy but I'm using it for a point), you'd find them to be very similar.

"I'll protect you!" x 100
"I'll kill you/I'll love you!" x 100
(Is any one going to let Mikono do anything for herself in this show? We've talked about how she's grown as a character but the underlying theme of powerlessness hasn't so much been dealt with as we've been distracted away from it. Ooh, they gave her a shinny power. Great(!) but in the mean time she's shifted from a dependence on her brother to a dependence on Amata... and, one could argue, her overlapping Amata with Kagura is a sign of what is either going to come or is going to shatter her world.)

Mike made a point of this elsewhere (Amata's thread), that unlike Kagura, Amata has many possible venues to pursue as a character. I may be a bit overly critical of it but to a degree I feel that, while he has taken steps forward in character with Mikono (and many within his relationship with Andy as well as the rest of the school), she's a leash on his ability to develop (if the x100 wasn't an obvious enough indicator of this already). Put another way, things are simply to good, to easy, and to simple, to encourage much growth... and (feel free to disagree) for such a clear cut relationship the show has certainly been meandering about with it. Similar to how, Kagura constantly losing is not going to bring about a change in his character. Keeping him as the unsavory, unable to win villain isn't going to win Kagura any points and its really just going to become a chore to watch him try, fail, and try again for the n-th time.

Our leads have simply been railroaded onto a track of: "Mikono!" and "Bitch!/(My Love!)". Strip away the robot fight, look past Jin and Yunoha, and you'll see that this last episode, for said leads, was little else but "Protect/Kill(Love) Mikono/Bitch(Lover)!". This is the half-way point of the show and we really do need a change of dynamics for the sake of our characters. We need to get past the *save the princess* plot that's more or less defined the first half of the show, and move on to more fun things like *metal pole origami competitions* or *Andy is secretly Batman!* or *Flash Gordon, Defender of the Universe!*

Flash... Aaaaa! Defender of the Universe!

Too long...
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Old 2012-03-29, 16:30   Link #37
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Tsundere, loud, brash, aggressive, over-confident, animal instinct, limited vocabulary, minimal sense of logic, hot-tempered, unintentionally funny, quite childish=Kagura.

I have always had a thing for flawed characters. What more could I ask for? Such an endearing character, and such a unique combination of personality traits. Come to mama!
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Old 2012-03-29, 17:19   Link #38
kuromitsu
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I don't actually understand much of the dislike for Kagura (well, that's not entirely true as I understand critique of his rather flat character but, then again, most of our cast is pretty flat and to a degree that's understandable*) and I cannot help but think that it might just be the underpinnings of bias and shipping that paint him in such a negative color for many people. It cannot be helped, I guess, but it is a bit unfortunate.
That would be unfortunate indeed - although if that's the case I can't help but wonder if there's a tiny little bit of a double standard at work here, looking at some comments about Amata and/or Mikono (and AmataxMikono).

That said, I don't mind Kagura - at the very least he's an entertaining character, and in ep 13 I found him more likeable than before. But I don't particularly like him either. From the four "main" characters (ie. Amata, Mikono, Zessica and Kagura) he is the one I like the least. He's simply not my cup of tea as far as character types go, I don't find him particularly hot (not my type, sorry), I don't find his personality attractive, and if he was the protagonist I wouldn't like the show as much as I do now.

Tastes differ in many ways, that's all. People don't always like the same things and the same characters.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-03-29 at 17:42.
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Old 2012-03-29, 17:49   Link #39
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Vena: I've actually seen some fan art that had Kagura as done up as Bowser.

On a more serious note, I was trying to make a narrower point. In terms of backstory and "identity" Amata seems more wide open and Kagura seems more constrained. In terms of character development I think Kagura has more room than Amata ("nowhere to go but up?").

Time will tell if there's anything to my "sick of reincarnation/lovers suicide(?)" idea for Kagura (...and Mikono?). I came up with it when I realized the simplest explanation for a wedding in mourning clothes would be if it was a wedding that was going to become a funeral, , and it definitely seems like that angle *could* explain a fair amount of nagging little things about Kagura (and Mikono, and Mykage, etc.).

You make a good point about how much Amata and Kagura are mirror images of each other, a bit more than I thought. Both Mikono-obsessed, both being groomed by mysterious entities, both apparently quasi-orphans...
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Old 2012-03-29, 19:27   Link #40
Vena
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That would be unfortunate indeed - although if that's the case I can't help but wonder if there's a tiny little bit of a double standard at work here, looking at some comments about Amata and/or Mikono (and AmataxMikono).
What would we do without double-standards? Have meaningful discussions? Pass.

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I have made my illogical argument of sound logic. I'd like to see any one do any better.

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Vena: I've actually seen some fan art that had Kagura as done up as Bowser.
But when did Bowser ever fail to steal Princess Peach? I say its backwards, Amawser!

Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
On a more serious note, I was trying to make a narrower point. In terms of backstory and "identity" Amata seems more wide open and Kagura seems more constrained. In terms of character development I think Kagura has more room than Amata ("nowhere to go but up?").
Character wise I think, and that overly verbose brick up top was aimed at this point, that both Amata and Kagura have equivalent room to develop as characters and that their central pivot is the same but the paths are different. Kagura can gain a lot from interaction time with Mikono, Amata has likely already dried out that well (its been half the show, after all). So, while one serves to garner a huge benefit from time with Mikono, the other would benefit more from losing said central pivot at this point (even if it were to be reacquired at a later time).

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Time will tell if there's anything to my "sick of reincarnation/lovers suicide(?)" idea for Kagura (...and Mikono?). I came up with it when I realized the simplest explanation for a wedding in mourning clothes would be if it was a wedding that was going to become a funeral, , and it definitely seems like that angle *could* explain a fair amount of nagging little things about Kagura (and Mikono, and Mykage, etc.).

You make a good point about how much Amata and Kagura are mirror images of each other, a bit more than I thought. Both Mikono-obsessed, both being groomed by mysterious entities, both apparently quasi-orphans...
I'll leave the *sick reincarnation* aside since Kagura's direction as a character is any body's guess at this point, the only thing we know (and hopefully this remains true for the sake of his integrity as a character) is that his future is going to be very Mikono dependent.

Your list sure does make things sound... dark. But I cannot help but root for the underdog (and literal dog at times) if it comes down to it. Amata's had it too easy.
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