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Old 2012-03-30, 18:46   Link #28281
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Like I said, saying that motive is fantasy within the very story it is trying to tell is more like what the witch side would do.
For me it's more saying why the author would write a story like this... which doesn't make the motive to be fantasy but to be in another catbox.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
First of all, what do really know about "real Shannon" anyway. The most that we discover about her is within EP 7 where we are suppsoe to discover the motive for the crime.
What do we know about the realcharacter of everyone?
There are more hints about Kirye being capable to kill people than about Shannon being capable to do it.

Though we know Shannon didn't commit any murder in Prime.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
If the motive is weak then perhaps it is because you lack love
Actually it's because I've love for Shannon that I refuse to see her becoming a sociopath murderer just to get Battler's attention.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Really the gravity of Kinzo's deeds is not that he had a secret daughter. The gravity of the issue is that he used abused his daughter by lying to her about her situation, holding her confined within the mansion to be his own, not giving her the chance to seek out her own identity past "Beatrice" and having sex with her to satisfy his own emotional and physical needs.

Possible it was out of loyalty for Kinzo or Nanjo with enough pressure has no problems to aid such actions.

Basically if someone were to put enough pressure on Nanjo, why wouldn't he aid a serial murderer?
Though I still think Kinzo's actions are horrible they still don't compare to the murder of all the Ushiromiya plus the sevants.
Also we don't even know how much Nanjo knew about Beatrice 2's situation or how bad exactly it was.
Nanjo said Kinzo admitted he felt attraction for her but he might have learnt he got Beato pregnant after Beato was dead... if he got her pregnant because there's even the suspicion Yasu isn't her daughter but someone Kinzo picked up to replace her (and there's even the theory not even Beato is Kinzo's daughter).

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I mean as far as the first four games go that the three of them are within the same body. That much is hinted often such as "confrontation" in EP1 and the "revival scenes" in EP3.
In the games is said also that Eva and Eva-Beatrice are the same person and that it's Eva-BEatrice the culprit behind the deaths in EP 3... Eva do not suffer of split personality though and she's not even the culprit in EP 3, apart for maybe Battler's murder.
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Old 2012-03-30, 20:52   Link #28282
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Disappointment implies expectations not met, does it not?
Expectation of Quality of not necessarily Expectation of Content. Renall doesn't have to have a preferred alternate model of the story's internal reality if he feels it was a disappointment of a product; he merely has to judge it as lacking in elegance, quality, or satisfaction.
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Old 2012-03-30, 21:20   Link #28283
UsagiTenpura
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So, I'm thinking Renall doesn't need his own lawyer here.
And in the end all that comes out of this is that he doesn't like Umineko. There's a thread for that.
Moving on...



Concerning motives of gameboard...
I think there are tons of them. They are overflowing, but they are crappy motives. Lolgold being the central of them.
Beatrice as a writer can also, at least theorically, make anyone into a culprit.
More importantly we as readers can also do it in our speculation (and indeed does it)
At that point it falls more or less into personal understanding of various characters (and often personal hatred). Did Ryuukishi even have a solid definitive answer concerning this? Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be something he nor the story cares about.
To a lot of people that is Yasu, to a lot of others it is George, I think some people think it's Kyrie and the Battler culprit theory is also in the air. Kinzo's responsability as well as Genji are also up in the air concerning this. But it doesn't really matter who is the culprit in any given story, it's clear that the mastermind is the writer, by definition. That's true even if the culprit is always the same.
This is fundamentally not too different from the relation between the main mystery of Higurashi and a given arc's culprit.

So that's where fantasy motives comes into play. It might not make realistic sense, but it's more interesting then normal motives that simply makes a character look bad, often crazy. Higurashi had it's shares of scifi and fantasy elements, and I'm fairly certain it made to most viewers and readers the whole thing more interesting. There's something more mystical to a mystery that includes such elements then a typical detective story tend to have, I think this is the basic fan base of both Umineko and Higurashi too.

In the end, detective mysteries (those that respects the laws of physics at least) have a very limited number of possible solutions as far as the why dunnit goes. Most of the time it is resumed as "their emotions lead them to do these murders" and sometimes we can even have sympathy and understanding for these murders but it is not such a deep revealing mystery as sometimes fantasy or science fiction can achieve.
I am not saying that detective mysteries are bad, but they are mostly centered on who dunnit and how dunnit - because there's just that much of a limit on the why dunnit, despite what Will might say.

There's a reason why series like Lost go so popular and I think by bringing up fantasy over mystery, Ryuukishi wanted us readers to get that same sort of feeling. It's ironic in that sense that we mostly ended up rejecting anything that isn't fantasy and ultimately forced ourselves to deception by accepting a pretty ... bland... why dunnit.
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Old 2012-03-31, 05:13   Link #28284
goldendust
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
For me it's more saying why the author would write a story like this... which doesn't make the motive to be fantasy but to be in another catbox.
Each game is a catbox with a truth contained within it. Although that does not change the fact that there clear motive within it with hints spread throughout. That was shown when Eva-Beatrice made a red statement about Kirie's motive.

Culprit,crime and motive is all contained within each game with hints spread throughout.

Quote:
What do we know about the realcharacter of everyone?
There are more hints about Kirye being capable to kill people than about Shannon being capable to do it.

Though we know Shannon didn't commit any murder in Prime.
Yeah but Kirie has no real connection to the existence Beatrice. Beatrice is the central figure behind the first four games with both Kanon and Shannon having the closest connection to her in every game.

About Shannon not commuting any murder on Prime. Is the proof based on that final scene in EP8 where Beatrice kills herself?

Quote:
Actually it's because I've love for Shannon that I refuse to see her becoming a sociopath murderer just to get Battler's attention.
It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.

In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.

Quote:
Though I still think Kinzo's actions are horrible they still don't compare to the murder of all the Ushiromiya plus the sevants.
Also we don't even know how much Nanjo knew about Beatrice 2's situation or how bad exactly it was.
Nanjo said Kinzo admitted he felt attraction for her but he might have learnt he got Beato pregnant after Beato was dead... if he got her pregnant because there's even the suspicion Yasu isn't her daughter but someone Kinzo picked up to replace her (and there's even the theory not even Beato is Kinzo's daughter).
There is a precedent that Nanjo would cover other people's crimes if put into the right situation.We seen time again and again that he covers for others.

The problem you seem to have is that severity of the crime would mean that Nanjo would not help cover up things. If that is a problem then the pressure to cover up the murders was also more severe.

Quote:
In the games is said also that Eva and Eva-Beatrice are the same person and that it's Eva-BEatrice the culprit behind the deaths in EP 3... Eva do not suffer of split personality though and she's not even the culprit in EP 3, apart for maybe Battler's murder.
Eva-Beatrice is not the culprit behind all of the murders. However she did kill a few people such as Rosa and Maria. For one thing those murders did not really fit with past ones with elaborate close rooms murders. The MO does not fits as it looks more like murder done is passion.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
There's a reason why series like Lost go so popular and I think by bringing up fantasy over mystery, Ryuukishi wanted us readers to get that same sort of feeling. It's ironic in that sense that we mostly ended up rejecting anything that isn't fantasy and ultimately forced ourselves to deception by accepting a pretty ... bland... why dunnit.
I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.

We a part of that when Bernkastel took a nice scene of Natsuhi talking with Beatrice and stripped away that illusion. As well the whole the theme of catboxs where anything is possible is better than a single truth.

In fact even the true form of Beatrice the scary, sneering and formidable witch has a rather pitiful form that she wants to hide. The truth of Beatrice is not great as the concept of an endless witch that can control life and death.
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Old 2012-03-31, 05:51   Link #28285
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.

In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.
If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.


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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.
And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".

And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.
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Old 2012-03-31, 06:36   Link #28286
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.
Well we do not know for sure how much the games applies to what happened on Rokujima prime but given that the stories were written by people that where for the most part.

Even accepting the whole mystery game premise if want to think that Yasuda did commit murder within her game that she set up for Battler.

There is plenty within EP 6-8 suggest that all of Yasuda is not entirely innocent at last as far the explosives are concerned.

In EP6 when Chick Beatrice spoke with "Mother". Keep in mind that she told Beatrice that she must wait for Battler to fulfill his promise. More importantly that one day that Beatrice will destroy and revive everything to being blessing to all lovers.

In EP7, Clair mentioned that she would have not been able to commit any crime/sin before the "days of trial" to which Will commented that her misfortune was to solve the epitaph and become a witch.

What she gained was a means to gain different accomplices with vast amount of wealth and the "other system" to invite everyone into the golden land.

Very likely that "the other" systems refers to the bomb that Yasuda has access to when she solved the epitaph. As well that inviting everyone into the golden land where all love is possible which refers to the explosion shutting up everyone within the cat box.

That is further expanded on within EP8 when Kannon and Shannon talk about how catbox allows conflicting future to exist. That was the heart of the problem between all of the personas. That only one could achieve love but with catbox it was possible for them all to achieve a happy future.


Quote:
And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."
That is why I used a bracket within mystery/reality. The point is that mystery needs to be grounded within reality to a certain extent where fantasy does not.

Even in the horror genre, the imaginary can be more frighting than reality.



Quote:
Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".
Doesn't the scene with Kanon in EP1 count as fantasy? We seen golden butteries in that scene.

Well yes everything is fiction but there is difference between fiction and fantasy in Umineko. That is what Will's black blade did, cut out the fantasy away from the fiction within the first four games.


Quote:
And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.
Also you have to consider EP2 where it easier to just blame the illusion of Beatrice for everything rather then suspect other humans of murder.

That is the point that I am trying to make. That more often then not that the fantasy can be better than reality. The way that Maria and Ange used magic was to cover up reality with pleasant fantasy. That Ange had magical friends that was always with her instead of the harsh reality that she is alone and nobody cares about her at all.

Motive is the same. A fantasy motive can be better then the actual one becasue one can shape it to their likings.
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Old 2012-03-31, 06:38   Link #28287
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These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers".
You forgot all those scenes with Ange and Maria in EP4?
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Old 2012-03-31, 06:52   Link #28288
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And that is it. "shaping any fantasy you want" is what Beato did NOT want. She wanted to tell a fantasy story, with a certain message, she wanted to convey to Battler. But that was her problem. Battler didn't take the fantasy part seriously, as he did not know the world of Beato's fantasy. It is hard to explain, but what i mean is, she wants Battler to look for her message in the fantasy part and to make him look for it, she uses the mystery side to give him courage.

In short: the mysteries only exist as support for Battler to reach the truth in the fantasy. Maybe it is the promise? Or that she is not the murderer.

This is all hard to answer, because we still don't know if the message bottles have been written pre- or post- incident. And if people cannot accept Ikuko as Yasuda, but instead go for RandomIkuko, then it becomes even more complicated, because half of the story was not even written by Yasuda herself...


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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You forgot all those scenes with Ange and Maria in EP4?
In my opinion that is unrelated, because they only concern Ange and have (almost) nothing to do with Beato's games. It has been implied, that Beato's and Ange's magic are different.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-31 at 08:24.
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Old 2012-03-31, 08:49   Link #28289
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Each game is a catbox with a truth contained within it. Although that does not change the fact that there clear motive within it with hints spread throughout. That was shown when Eva-Beatrice made a red statement about Kirie's motive.

Culprit,crime and motive is all contained within each game with hints spread throughout.
Then which is Erika's motive for killing people in EP 6?
Has she gone mad/paranoud all of sudden?

It's a possible explanation that PieceErika's motive is she'd gone mad but the explanation we generally go for is that MetaErika moved her Piece in such way to generate a logic error.
As this action is OOC for PieceErika (we're nowhere said Erika was a psychokiller, though she surely has an unpleasant personality) her motive is weak.

Also we don't even know if Battler has guessed Kirye's motive right.
It could be that Kirye was bribed into dragging Hideyoshi out of the house or wanted to kill him because she believed him to be the culprit.
After all it wasn't Eva who was the culprit and it's unlikely Hideyoshi managed to kill Rudolf and Kirye who in return managed to shoot him to dead.

The cigarette butt might have been placed there by the real culprit in fact it's Beato who searches in the corpses' pockets so that Battler can notice the cigarette and do his own deduction about the motive.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Yeah but Kirie has no real connection to the existence Beatrice. Beatrice is the central figure behind the first four games with both Kanon and Shannon having the closest connection to her in every game.

About Shannon not commuting any murder on Prime. Is the proof based on that final scene in EP8 where Beatrice kills herself?
That can be a hint and a hint can be what was said in Ryukishi's interview.
Though personally I think Shannon can't be the culprit because I doubt Eva would cover up for her.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.
They share the same body though. This would make Shannon someone who suffer of multiple personality and one of those personalities is a sociopath murderer who's killing people just to get Battler's attention on Shannon.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.
Beatrice 'existed' as the witch who played pranks prior to Battler's sin.
Ep 6 represented her as Beato the elder.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
There is a precedent that Nanjo would cover other people's crimes if put into the right situation.We seen time again and again that he covers for others.

The problem you seem to have is that severity of the crime would mean that Nanjo would not help cover up things. If that is a problem then the pressure to cover up the murders was also more severe.
You seem to imply that if Nanjo lied to cover up someone then Nanjo is capable of lying to cover up everything. As people aren't just black or white Nanjo might have drawn a line somewhere.
There are very few people who had never lied once in their life to cover up something but not everyone would be willing to lie to cover up a mass murder that might end up involving them as well.

How did Nanjo know Yasu wouldn't have killed him too?
And even if he believed she would have spared him how did he plan to explain to the police the situation once they would reach Rokkenjima?

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Eva-Beatrice is not the culprit behind all of the murders. However she did kill a few people such as Rosa and Maria. For one thing those murders did not really fit with past ones with elaborate close rooms murders. The MO does not fits as it looks more like murder done is passion.
We don't know if she actually killed them. All we're shown is a magic scene in which EvaBeatrice killed and resurrected them and then it was Beato who killed them for good.

It's possible the culprit was Eva, it's possible the culprit was Yasu.
Actually considering it was Maria who persuaded her mother to leave the house it's easy to assume that Yasu said something that influenced Maria's behaviour so that she dragged Rosa out of the house making easier for her to kill them.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.
Through Umineko ends up also showing that fantasy can't replace reality.
Beato wants to be acknowledged by real people, Ange rejects her fantsy friends because they can't just be enough, Kinzo ends up hurting his own daughter and losing her and so on.

Fantasy might be nice and conforting but in the long run if you indulge too much in it you get more pain than gain.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.
Exactly

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.
The fun part is that the reverse of that red truth doesn't necessary work.
Battler didn't come on Rokkenjima in Lion's world and yet people died just the same.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."
*nods* yes, that's true. We tend to think that mistery is more realistic than fantasy because it follows more rules that work in the real world but, in the end, it also has some 'fantasy' elements.
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Old 2012-03-31, 09:55   Link #28290
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.




And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".

And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.
Fantasy is heartwarming right in arc 1.
Battler at one points breaks down and start crying and ask for Beatrice to make a murder that definitively couldn't have been done by humans, so they would stop being at each other's throat from the start.

Also, what about things like when Natsuhi enters Kinzo's room and he tells her a speech about how she inherited his will and has the eagle engraved in her heart and all that. Or iono, like broken down Kinzo crying and having Beatrice saying "you fool.... without love you cannot see me" or something like that? What about arc 3 where "good witch and bad witch" are put into opposition (twice, Virgilia vs Beatrice at first, and Beatrice vs Eva Beato later)?

You can find many if you try to. Well you did say "correct me if I'm wrong", so done.
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Old 2012-03-31, 13:01   Link #28291
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Then which is Erika's motive for killing people in EP 6?
Has she gone mad/paranoud all of sudden?

It's a possible explanation that PieceErika's motive is she'd gone mad but the explanation we generally go for is that MetaErika moved her Piece in such way to generate a logic error.
As this action is OOC for PieceErika (we're nowhere said Erika was a psychokiller, though she surely has an unpleasant personality) her motive is weak.
Well that is one possible explanation. We have to consider that it was said that pieces cannot act too much OOC in EP5.

About EP6, I am not sure how much that as a valid game considering the blatant tampering on Erika's part and Battler's retroactive changes to the story. I do not think we saw Batter as a piece ever act like that nor ever shown awareness about his status as a piece.

More so that the end was never really allowed to end one way or another. That game concluded with just fixing the logic error due to Erika playing a different role in the story then intended.

Quote:
Also we don't even know if Battler has guessed Kirye's motive right.
It could be that Kirye was bribed into dragging Hideyoshi out of the house or wanted to kill him because she believed him to be the culprit.
After all it wasn't Eva who was the culprit and it's unlikely Hideyoshi managed to kill Rudolf and Kirye who in return managed to shoot him to dead.

The cigarette butt might have been placed there by the real culprit in fact it's Beato who searches in the corpses' pockets so that Battler can notice the cigarette and do his own deduction about the motive.
A large point of EP3 was to help Battler after his abysmal failure in EP2. Beatrice dumped a lot of hints within the game. That no unknown person can exist, the catbox metaphor, the pony promise that Batter made etc. The whole EP has been basically training wheels for Battler.

Unlikely but not impossible. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that Hideyoshi was able to kill them both but got killed himself.

Beatrice was helping Battler since he could not do it himself. Like I said that EP3 was basically training wheels for Battler.


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That can be a hint and a hint can be what was said in Ryukishi's interview.
Though personally I think Shannon can't be the culprit because I doubt Eva would cover up for her.
Why? Eva is desperate to gain money for her husband's sake as well deisred the headship since her youth. Something that was within Yasuda's means to give her if Eva agreed.

Will said to Claire that thanks to solving the epitaph that vast wealth allowed to pick up different accomplices.


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They share the same body though. This would make Shannon someone who suffer of multiple personality and one of those personalities is a sociopath murderer who's killing people just to get Battler's attention on Shannon.
Yes the story portrays them as incomplete souls born from Yasuda's soul or in other words multiple personalities.


Quote:
Beatrice 'existed' as the witch who played pranks prior to Battler's sin.
Ep 6 represented her as Beato the elder.
I meant that the Beatrice that Batter was beeing faced with as shown by the red truth

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.


That is a hint in EP4 of Beatrice's origin. EP3 introduced the concept of a witch being born from a human so it is possible to make that connection.


Quote:
You seem to imply that if Nanjo lied to cover up someone then Nanjo is capable of lying to cover up everything. As people aren't just black or white Nanjo might have drawn a line somewhere.
There are very few people who had never lied once in their life to cover up something but not everyone would be willing to lie to cover up a mass murder that might end up involving them as well.
No I am suggesting that Nanjo's role was to cover up the life/death status of certain people like he was doing the whole time with Kinzo. People trust Nanjo as a doctor and Nanjo himself is an accomplished liar who aided other in the pasts in their ill deeds.

Of course people lie and can draw the line somewhere but like I said Nanjo is not "everyone" nor he is an entirely honest man, we do not know where he would draw the line.

With a vast amount of wealth and potential threat. Why would not be possible for Nanjo to aid a murder by lying about life/death statuses?

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How did Nanjo know Yasu wouldn't have killed him too?
And even if he believed she would have spared him how did he plan to explain to the police the situation once they would reach Rokkenjima?
Like with accomplices and murderers. He trusted Yasuda to not kill him or he was forced into helping like Nastuhi did indirectly in EP5.

The explosives would remove all of the evidence, Nanjo can just say that like Eva that he escaped. What are they going to convict him with? If Eva did not go to prison, the family doctor certainly would not.


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We don't know if she actually killed them. All we're shown is a magic scene in which EvaBeatrice killed and resurrected them and then it was Beato who killed them for good.
Of course we do not know although a lot hints towards it. The most glaring is the method of murder.

Quote:
Fantasy might be nice and conforting but in the long run if you indulge too much in it you get more pain than gain.
Indeed in some cases fantasy being a comforting lie does not work. However in one of your examples like Ange, they story portrayed that giving up on fantasy friends was a negative thing.

Although if you consider the magic vs trick ending that the magic one where Ange believes in magic and blindly hopes that someone will return is the most positive one.
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Old 2012-03-31, 19:12   Link #28292
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Fantasy is heartwarming right in arc 1.
Battler at one points breaks down and start crying and ask for Beatrice to make a murder that definitively couldn't have been done by humans, so they would stop being at each other's throat from the start.

Also, what about things like when Natsuhi enters Kinzo's room and he tells her a speech about how she inherited his will and has the eagle engraved in her heart and all that. Or iono, like broken down Kinzo crying and having Beatrice saying "you fool.... without love you cannot see me" or something like that? What about arc 3 where "good witch and bad witch" are put into opposition (twice, Virgilia vs Beatrice at first, and Beatrice vs Eva Beato later)?

You can find many if you try to. Well you did say "correct me if I'm wrong", so done.
Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. For me at least it is Fantasy =/= Fiction/Lie.
Tell me honestly... when you read/watched EP1, did you really know that Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi was a delusion/lie? Or were you convinced that the death of Kanon was a fake scene or just really magic? I at least didn't. The setting was completly that of a mystery. Unlike the later Episodes, the scenes without Battler lacked the usual "magic shows".

And in EP2-4 most magic scenes, where something good happened, ended with a tragedy. In EP2 all happy magic scenes ended up with everyones death at the end. First Jessica and Kanon, then George and Shanon. In EP3 similary, after Beato finally did something good, Eva-Beato fries her... and the reason why it stopped was a META scene and additionally it was done by Battler who was clearly Anti-Fantasy.

Now that I think about it... wasn't almost every death in EP2-4 a horror-fantasy?
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Old 2012-03-31, 21:39   Link #28293
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Well that is one possible explanation. We have to consider that it was said that pieces cannot act too much OOC in EP5.
Erika going mad is, as far as I'm involved, an unsatisfing motive for her to commit murder.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
About EP6, I am not sure how much that as a valid game considering the blatant tampering on Erika's part and Battler's retroactive changes to the story. I do not think we saw Batter as a piece ever act like that nor ever shown awareness about his status as a piece.
Like how? He's just playing a prank. If you want an OOC Battler you've to go for EP 5. In it he solved easily an epitaph he previously couldn't figure out and cooperated in staging fake murders likely with the purpose of blackmailing Natsuhi.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
A large point of EP3 was to help Battler after his abysmal failure in EP2. Beatrice dumped a lot of hints within the game. That no unknown person can exist, the catbox metaphor, the pony promise that Batter made etc. The whole EP has been basically training wheels for Battler.
This don't make impossible the fact that it was Yasu who placed there the cigarette butt.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Unlikely but not impossible. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that Hideyoshi was able to kill them both but got killed himself.
The games are supposed to have a single culprit, Yasu. Now you're creating 3, Eva, Hideyoshi and Yasu.
Also, Rudolf and Kirye were skilled with weapons while Hideyoshi was not and, according to your theory, Kirye suspected of him.
Two people skilled with weapons and wary against one who's unskilled and might not know he's being suspected. The chances are so low Hideyoshi needs a miracle to accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Why? Eva is desperate to gain money for her husband's sake as well deisred the headship since her youth. Something that was within Yasuda's means to give her if Eva agreed.
I'm speaking of how she shouldered the blame for the Rokenjima incident after it took place.
If Yasu is dead it would have been easy to place the blame on the 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir'. If Yasu is alive likely Eva wishes for revenge for the dead of George and Hideyoshi.
In both cases I doubt she would just take the blame and cover up for Yasu...

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Yes the story portrays them as incomplete souls born from Yasuda's soul or in other words multiple personalities.
There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
No I am suggesting that Nanjo's role was to cover up the life/death status of certain people like he was doing the whole time with Kinzo. People trust Nanjo as a doctor and Nanjo himself is an accomplished liar who aided other in the pasts in their ill deeds.

Of course people lie and can draw the line somewhere but like I said Nanjo is not "everyone" nor he is an entirely honest man, we do not know where he would draw the line.

With a vast amount of wealth and potential threat. Why would not be possible for Nanjo to aid a murder by lying about life/death statuses?
Because nowhere he's depicted as a man who has a thirst for money and would kill/aid someone else to kill to get it.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Of course we do not know although a lot hints towards it. The most glaring is the method of murder.
Beato didn't always make closed room murders.
In Ep 1 when Kanon is killed there'a a door that lead outside and that's not closed.
In Ep 2 Nanjo and Kumasawa apparently welcomed in their murderer.
In Ep 3 the only closed room murders are the ones of the first twilight and the one of George.
The same applies to Ep 4 where Maria is killed again and Beato uses poison to murder her.

I don't really see any problem in her causing Rosa and Maria to leave the house and then cause Rosa to die in such a way to after kill Maria through strangulation.
Note that Beato (well, chick Beato) attempted to strangulate someone in EP 6 as well.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Indeed in some cases fantasy being a comforting lie does not work. However in one of your examples like Ange, they story portrayed that giving up on fantasy friends was a negative thing.
The problem isn't that Age gave up on her magic friends but that she relied on them and when she was forced to crash with reality that they couldn't do a single thing she gave up on them.
The negative thing is that she relied on them, not that she gave up on them.
Fantasy isn't bad per se, it's when you start to live in a fantasy world that things tend to go bad.
If Ange hadn't blindly trusted in her friends to solve her problems but had remained aware they were just fantasies she wouldn't have put her hopes in them.

Through probably that scene is a mere metaphor to represent how she had reached a breaking point where not even fantasy could help her being happy as it can't solve her problems in the real world.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although if you consider the magic vs trick ending that the magic one where Ange believes in magic and blindly hopes that someone will return is the most positive one.
Because that one is a completely different type of magic.
Hoping for something that has a chance at happening, although a low one, isn't lying to herself about something she knows for sure to be false.
Also, while she hoped, she still tried to live in the real world instead than closing herself in the fantasy world of her hope.

Her stance is completely different from the one she had at school where she acted like she believed her magic friends to be real and tried to cut herself from the real world.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:30   Link #28294
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There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.
That'd be me. At best, Yasu is a very emotionally unstable actress.
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Old 2012-04-01, 01:19   Link #28295
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. For me at least it is Fantasy =/= Fiction/Lie.
Tell me honestly... when you read/watched EP1, did you really know that Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi was a delusion/lie? Or were you convinced that the death of Kanon was a fake scene or just really magic? I at least didn't. The setting was completly that of a mystery. Unlike the later Episodes, the scenes without Battler lacked the usual "magic shows".
Actually yes, I always thought Kinzo was already dead. No matter if they appeared before in the narrative, character only gets a character file in the r_click menu when Battler sees them, except for Kinzo, giving away that he wasn't a real person.

Also, the point is not that fantasy is like, good, and mystery evil, like you seem to suggest we think. It's about how fantasy makes a STORY that in itself is more heartwarming. If anything, the very end of Umineko has Ange reviving everyone. Good luck reaching that with mystery alone.
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Old 2012-04-01, 05:53   Link #28296
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Well it seems my view was a bit different, because i was "Anime-first"....

Anyway, you still don't get what I want to say... for example the scene with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa "finding" the guestroom with Eva and George death. As we all got to know now, it did not really happen, but the scene still looked plausible, and as long as we think about a reliable narrator, we will probably believe in that scene. There was no "magic" aside form the magic circle, that however really existed. My point is until EP1 TP there are no "flying stakes that transform into girls"...

And that was just about Legend o.t.g.W.


Then from EP2 onwards we get Beato's magic shows with goats fighting etc.

While you could say "it is good that it's none of the people that Battler knows" is a good and "heartwarming" thing, in (almost) every single twilight there is a scene described, how the victim becomes torn into pieces very detailed, mixed with "classical" music to make this look as if the murderer actually enjoys that.

The "hearwarming" scenes were clearly overshadowed, sometimes even interupted by the horror scenes.
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Old 2012-04-01, 07:23   Link #28297
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Like how? He's just playing a prank. If you want an OOC Battler you've to go for EP 5. In it he solved easily an epitaph he previously couldn't figure out and cooperated in staging fake murders likely with the purpose of blackmailing Natsuhi.
Though didn't when Battler said that "Battler" was not him that Dlanor commented that pieces cannot act beyond their role as characters. Not to mention that Erika helped Battler out in EP5.

About the "fake" murders to blackmail Natsuhi. Weren't the corpses cut in such a way that fake death would be impossible?

Quote:
This don't make impossible the fact that it was Yasu who placed there the cigarette butt.
Of course not but it does go against the general premise of the game that was meant to help out Battler.

Quote:
The games are supposed to have a single culprit, Yasu. Now you're creating 3, Eva, Hideyoshi and Yasu.
Also, Rudolf and Kirye were skilled with weapons while Hideyoshi was not and, according to your theory, Kirye suspected of him.
Two people skilled with weapons and wary against one who's unskilled and might not know he's being suspected. The chances are so low Hideyoshi needs a miracle to accomplish this.
You are forgetting that that murders are suppose to cease when the epitaph has been solved. Beatrice via the agreement should have ceased the murders based on the epitaph order. Beatrice had to stop killing via the epitaph due to her own agreement that she will cease "collecting interest".

Also what prevents other characters from committing murder for example self-defense? It seemed that Eva shot Battler in a state of delusion no?

It is indeed a low chance but it is not as unlikely as you think. Also unless I am misremembering something wasn't it mentioned that Hideyoshi used a weapon before?

Regardless I do not see it as that unlikely. Within the games, Meta Beatrice used pretty nasty tricks to make murders look confusing. Considering the first trick of EP3 and using the red truth in the end.

Quote:
I'm speaking of how she shouldered the blame for the Rokenjima incident after it took place.
If Yasu is dead it would have been easy to place the blame on the 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir'. If Yasu is alive likely Eva wishes for revenge for the dead of George and Hideyoshi.
In both cases I doubt she would just take the blame and cover up for Yasu...
I thought you were referring to the games. Will mentioned that Yasuda was able to get her accomplices due to vast wealth she obtained.

Fine lets talk about Prime. Just one thing that I always wondered about.

Is it possible that maybe Eva is not 100% innocent within Prime? I know it is shocking to consider since it seems that she wants Ange to think that she was behind it.

However there is one thing to consider. Eva has the ring of the head and knowledge of the hidden mansion that was able to avoid the explosives. So from whom did Eva get the ring and the knowledge to avoid the explosives? Kinzo is dead so he couldn't have passed on the ring. The true head is Yasuda who Kinzo gave all of his wealth including the vast amount of gold.

What if Prime Yasuda gave Eva the ring and passed on the headship to her. That Eva might have some role within the incident that she directly or indirectly caused some of the events.

On why Eva takes the blame. I do attribute that to two reasons

-someone in Ange's family had a role in the incident which Eva did want to burdin Ange with
-Eva felt a certain futility in trying to change the truth as everyone thinks as her as the culprit even if a 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir' killed everyone that she cannot prove it.
-Eva was traumatized by the incident and like most traumatized people rather avoid thinking about the incident


Quote:
There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.
Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.

Quote:
Because nowhere he's depicted as a man who has a thirst for money and would kill/aid someone else to kill to get it.
Yet he is depicted as liar who aids others in their schemes/crimes. You seem to have a problem with that due to nature of the schemes/crimes but it is essentially the same.


Quote:
Beato didn't always make closed room murders.
In Ep 1 when Kanon is killed there'a a door that lead outside and that's not closed.
In Ep 2 Nanjo and Kumasawa apparently welcomed in their murderer.
In Ep 3 the only closed room murders are the ones of the first twilight and the one of George.
The same applies to Ep 4 where Maria is killed again and Beato uses poison to murder her.
Not close room murders but just the feel of the murders. They have the feel of accidental murder and another murder that resulted due to the first one.

Within the TIP it was mentioned that Rosa's death might have been seen as an "accident" if Maira was not killed after Rosa. Using the TIPS, it sounds more like that the murders were done in passion. That Rosa's death was accidental and Maria was done in reaction to Rosa' death.(started crying and was silenced)

Will's answer within EP3 like "the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" give more indication about who was behind some of the murders.


Quote:
Through probably that scene is a mere metaphor to represent how she had reached a breaking point where not even fantasy could help her being happy as it can't solve her problems in the real world.
Indeed it did show that Ange misunderstood the nature of magic and fantasy. Magic is a gentle lie but a lie nonetheless.

However that does not exactly change that returning to magic and fantasy is still portrayed as a positive choice rather than facing harsh and grim reality.

Quote:
Because that one is a completely different type of magic.
Hoping for something that has a chance at happening, although a low one, isn't lying to herself about something she knows for sure to be false.
Also, while she hoped, she still tried to live in the real world instead than closing herself in the fantasy world of her hope.

Her stance is completely different from the one she had at school where she acted like she believed her magic friends to be real and tried to cut herself from the real world
Blindly hoping means that that one has hope without anything to base on it. That is what Agne has been doing for many years.
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Old 2012-04-01, 09:12   Link #28298
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Though didn't when Battler said that "Battler" was not him that Dlanor commented that pieces cannot act beyond their role as characters. Not to mention that Erika helped Battler out in EP5.
If Piece Battler can't act out of character it doesn't matter who moves him.
And no, Erika doesn't really help Battler out. They came to the same conclusions at around the same time so at best Erika confirmed Battler's deductions (and suggested searching for a atlas... though since Battler too was in the library he might have gone there with that purpose already).

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
About the "fake" murders to blackmail Natsuhi. Weren't the corpses cut in such a way that fake death would be impossible?
Yes but we've no reliable witnesses about said cuts. And the 'corpses' walked away from where they were and they were NEVER moved after they died. Ergo they died after they were declared dead. People lied about them being dead, Erika didn't witnessed them (they were covered), they walked away and after they left the room they were in they were killed.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Of course not but it does go against the general premise of the game that was meant to help out Battler.
She helped Battler out. He figured out an answer to fight against EvaBeatrice's red, didn't he?

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
You are forgetting that that murders are suppose to cease when the epitaph has been solved. Beatrice via the agreement should have ceased the murders based on the epitaph order. Beatrice had to stop killing via the epitaph due to her own agreement that she will cease "collecting interest".
Yet we know for sure Yasu killed Nanjo so she didn't stop.
There are two popular theories about why the serial murders didn't stop with the discovery of the gold, the first is that Eva didn't inform anyone about discovering the gold so pieceYasu didn't know and went on with her plan.
The second is that Eva didn't really solve the epitaph but was handed/promised the solution by Yasu in exchange for her to act a certain way and she realized too late what this had caused.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Also what prevents other characters from committing murder for example self-defense? It seemed that Eva shot Battler in a state of delusion no?
The idea behind the games is that the culprit has to be Yasu. If we start with Eva and Hideyoshi being the main culprits we take away Battler's interest from Yasu.
Your plot for Ep 3 doesn't set up Eva as accidentally killing Rosa and Maria but purposely doing it and the same can be said for Hideyoshi... unless you want to widen the rose of murders and say that Kirye and Rudolf tried to kill him first.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
It is indeed a low chance but it is not as unlikely as you think. Also unless I am misremembering something wasn't it mentioned that Hideyoshi used a weapon before?
Once. With a pistol. Back in the past. And we're told Winchesters aren't so easily to use and expecially to recharge if you aren't used to them. Even assuming he managed to shoot once he would have troubles doing it easily twice.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Fine lets talk about Prime. Just one thing that I always wondered about.

Is it possible that maybe Eva is not 100% innocent within Prime? I know it is shocking to consider since it seems that she wants Ange to think that she was behind it.
If the games also contain an inner truth about Prime as Ryukishi seemed to imply in an interview is likely to assume that Eva might have:

- shoot by mistake (Ep 3-7), be willing to shoot for self defence/her family's defence (Ep 3-7), have shoot for revenge (Ep 7).

Surely in Prime Yasu (or possibly Genji) informed Eva and likely Battler about the underground passage and the bomb and waved around Kinzo's ring.

However the money that was supposed to bribe people was used for Nanjo, Kumasawa and Rudolf. There's no mention Eva received it, although since there were many boxes in the bank it's possible that everyone who was on the island was bribed into something.

Ryukishi also said:

Quote:
One of the things that you can really know from within the story is that „Eva knew something but decided to never to tell Ange about it.“. Based on that many different things have been said in the meta world, and there were also several depictions that hinted at the truth, and it might be a common factor that interpretations on that will diverge. If you start thinking from that point though, even if some small parts are different, you can guess that on this island „a regretable incident happened because of certain actions that those people took“.
As Eva in Prime dies if she were really guilty she might have confessed before dying but she did not. Since Ange wanted Eva to be guilty and the book of one truth contained the truth once Ange had read it she would have been satisfied but she wasn't.

Ergo, even if it's possible Eva did something, it likely was something 'minor' that wouldn't label her as the sole/main culprit.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.
Personally I think if Umineko aimed at having a multiple personality theory for Yasu then Maria and Jessica too would suffer of it (Jessica even encouraged Kanon to create another self within himself) while the game goes on explaining how they don't do it.

It's much more logic to consider the various characters Yasu created are nothing else but masks.
Shannon represents the face she is supposed to show to the world, Beato her inner desires.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Yet he is depicted as liar who aids others in their schemes/crimes. You seem to have a problem with that due to nature of the schemes/crimes but it is essentially the same.
No, the 'crimes' he covers up are pretty different even if the sin is the same.
Covering up Kinzo's death can't remotely compare to aiding a mass murderer.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Not close room murders but just the feel of the murders. They have the feel of accidental murder and another murder that resulted due to the first one.
I've the feeling we're running in circles with this one. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
However that does not exactly change that returning to magic and fantasy is still portrayed as a positive choice rather than facing harsh and grim reality.
I wouldn't say Ange returned to fantasy in Ep 8 but that she choses to hope. Fantasy is something that can't become true while hope is something that has a chance to become true.
She adopted a more positive outlook and faced reality, didn't escape from it.
Although she hoped in Battler's return she didn't pretend he was around and continued to live in the real world, working and interacting with real people.

If you want she chose to believe in Kinzo's magic, the one who has low chances to become real but still has chances. The fact that the seven sisters were with her instead had zero chances of being true.

I guess Umineko wanted to draw a line between living in a world of fantasies and continuing to hope in a positive outcome.

Even Will said something similar:

Quote:
"So don't lose heart! Keep on struggling and struggling...!! Don't look for a miracle... Be one!!"
"......Be......a miracle......"
"You're gonna reach a happy future. You can't give up, and you can't complain. Just you try complaining one more time. This time I'll pinch your ass...!"
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Blindly hoping means that that one has hope without anything to base on it. That is what Agne has been doing for many years.
Although there is no proof Battler is still alive there are also no proof he's surely dead. She's hoping for someone that has a possiblility of happening while, at the same time, not letting that hope to control her life.

It'll be different if she'd been hoping Maria would come back when pieces of Maria were found on the island or if she was devoting all her life to wait for Battler's return.

Hope is a positive thing, something that keep human going on, the last to die or as the Latins said 'Spes, Ultima Dea'.
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Old 2012-04-01, 09:27   Link #28299
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well it seems my view was a bit different, because i was "Anime-first"....

Anyway, you still don't get what I want to say... for example the scene with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa "finding" the guestroom with Eva and George death. As we all got to know now, it did not really happen, but the scene still looked plausible, and as long as we think about a reliable narrator, we will probably believe in that scene. There was no "magic" aside form the magic circle, that however really existed. My point is until EP1 TP there are no "flying stakes that transform into girls"...

And that was just about Legend o.t.g.W.


Then from EP2 onwards we get Beato's magic shows with goats fighting etc.

While you could say "it is good that it's none of the people that Battler knows" is a good and "heartwarming" thing, in (almost) every single twilight there is a scene described, how the victim becomes torn into pieces very detailed, mixed with "classical" music to make this look as if the murderer actually enjoys that.

The "hearwarming" scenes were clearly overshadowed, sometimes even interupted by the horror scenes.
Well there is like, Yasu able to successfully murder everyone without failling once, even when the odds are against him/her. Or perhaps the magical transformation from Shannon into Kanon over and over with perfect timings.
To me that sort of fantasy is way more "fantasy" then flying stakes. Matter of view. What does matter tho is that, at least I think, when people refer to fantasy they don't seperate things to the point you do. Fantasy = scene that didn't happen in mystery. Otherwise it just means that like, when Ronove and Beatrice are talking, it's not fantasy, because talking doesn't break the laws of physics.

Also, well, dead people talking do break the laws of physics a lot (I mean, arc 1 has that a lot, you can't say there's no pure fantasy).

But anyway you seem to think I suggest fantasy are "good" and this is really not the case. It's just like Higurashi in the end. Fantasy/sci-fi elements didn't exactly make things any happier, but it was heartwarming to learn that you know, it's not a serie about just people snapping and senselessly murder others without much sense being behind the whole thing, like some j-horror movies tend to be.
It's the same thing with Umineko, arc 5 made quite a point about that logic.
Also, magic became well... more obvious, because without that people would still try to reason out things without considering some scenes to be "fantasies". We didn't get it, so Ryuukishi put it in our face. Arc 2 still wasn't enough, so he went with ridiculously epic magic battle in arc 3 and 4.

Hope we understand each other's view now ^^;;
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Old 2012-04-01, 11:52   Link #28300
goldendust
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If Piece Battler can't act out of character it doesn't matter who moves him.
And no, Erika doesn't really help Battler out. They came to the same conclusions at around the same time so at best Erika confirmed Battler's deductions (and suggested searching for a atlas... though since Battler too was in the library he might have gone there with that purpose already).
Consider the Umineko game to a game of chess(which is done very often). Pieces have certain limitations and only can preform moves within their limitations. No matter how you move them, they have to act in a certain way.

You cannot make a pawn move diagonally. Even the queen who can move the freely within chess is limited as it cannot move like a knight.

I always had the impression that Battler solved it thanks to bouncing his ideas to Erika and vice-versa.

Quote:
Yes but we've no reliable witnesses about said cuts. And the 'corpses' walked away from where they were and they were NEVER moved after they died. Ergo they died after they were declared dead. People lied about them being dead, Erika didn't witnessed them (they were covered), they walked away and after they left the room they were in they were killed.
Ah yes, it has been a while since I read that episode. IIRC wasn't one of the red truth that an autopsy would have not mistaken the corpses. It would seem extremely difficult to fake wouldn't it?

Quote:
She helped Battler out. He figured out an answer to fight against EvaBeatrice's red, didn't he?
Yes that is what I have been saying. Beatrice designed the game that there would be evidence and found it for Battler. Battler just had to be 2 and 2 together.

Quote:
Yet we know for sure Yasu killed Nanjo so she didn't stop.
There are two popular theories about why the serial murders didn't stop with the discovery of the gold, the first is that Eva didn't inform anyone about discovering the gold so pieceYasu didn't know and went on with her plan.
The second is that Eva didn't really solve the epitaph but was handed/promised the solution by Yasu in exchange for her to act a certain way and she realized too late what this had caused.
I don't know. Somehow the idea that Piece Yasuda would have no means of seeing who solves the epitaph seems unlikely if you consider the vast amount of preperation put into the crimes. More so that like in EP7 Tea Party that Yasuda is prone to hide in the same area as the gold until she proceeds to commit more murders.

Although the two theories do make sense.

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The idea behind the games is that the culprit has to be Yasu. If we start with Eva and Hideyoshi being the main culprits we take away Battler's interest from Yasu.
Your plot for Ep 3 doesn't set up Eva as accidentally killing Rosa and Maria but purposely doing it and the same can be said for Hideyoshi... unless you want to widen the rose of murders and say that Kirye and Rudolf tried to kill him first.
No it does not, the game was made in such way that Eva is made to be the culprit going as far to call the witch of the game "Eva-Beatrice". However certain parts of the game were designed that Battler could not solve it by only using "Eva is the culprit" theory. It would make sense that it is part of the answer but not all of it.

Besides the 3rd game was largely about giving Battler tools to figure out others games. The mysteries were still as difficult and vexing as ever except that Beatrice helped Battler all the way through.


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If the games also contain an inner truth about Prime as Ryukishi seemed to imply in an interview is likely to assume that Eva might have: - shoot by mistake (Ep 3-7), be willing to shoot for self defence/her family's defence (Ep 3-7), have shoot for revenge (Ep 7).
Indeed, although I suspect that she might have unwittingly caused a greater incident. While EP7 tea party is dubious at best, I do suspect that Eva played a similar role within Prime. Maybe did not literally shoot someone but possibly did something to spark the incident.

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Surely in Prime Yasu (or possibly Genji) informed Eva and likely Battler about the underground passage and the bomb and waved around Kinzo's ring.
That is the thing though. If Battler and Eva both were told a way to avoid the explosives, what caused them to separate? The most likely answer is that Eva or Battler did not trust the other.


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As Eva in Prime dies if she were really guilty she might have confessed before dying but she did not. Since Ange wanted Eva to be guilty and the book of one truth contained the truth once Ange had read it she would have been satisfied but she wasn't.
Ange wanted Eva to be the evil mastermind behind the incident. If the truth that she was just a sad woman who made a mistake and the only incident was just a result of tragic choices people made, it would be an unsatisfying truth for Ange.


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Personally I think if Umineko aimed at having a multiple personality theory for Yasu then Maria and Jessica too would suffer of it (Jessica even encouraged Kanon to create another self within himself) while the game goes on explaining how they don't do it.

It's much more logic to consider the various characters Yasu created are nothing else but masks.
Shannon represents the face she is supposed to show to the world, Beato her inner desires.
I think that makes more sense as well but we are talking about within the context of the story. Maria during one of her "witch" moments are not portrayed as a different character altogether. Even "Jessie" is not either. I am not sure how that comparison holds.

The only character who has something comparable is Eva whose inner self becomes separated once she becomes a "witch"(sound similar?).

Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.


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No, the 'crimes' he covers up are pretty different even if the sin is the same.
Covering up Kinzo's death can't remotely compare to aiding a mass murderer.
Lets just agree to disagree here, I do not think that either of us is going to budge on this point.

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I've the feeling we're running in circles with this one. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it.
Okay


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I guess Umineko wanted to draw a line between living in a world of fantasies and continuing to hope in a positive outcome.
I agree. I suppose you could call that hoping for best case scenario despite nigh-impossible odds.

A slightly cynical person would consider that to be foolish dreaming that borders on living in a fantasy.
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