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Old 2012-03-29, 02:20   Link #301
Dengar
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Consistency? If the deaths are indeed not caused by a conscious entity, but by circumstance, it would be natural for there to be certain intervals.

Btw I really like the reverse-vacuum analogy.
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Old 2012-03-30, 10:28   Link #302
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So theoretically the further you are away from the "other" or at least its location the less likely your are to die?
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Old 2012-04-01, 12:16   Link #303
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Actually I assume that the phenomenon is centered around the town, and doesn't "die down" unless you get out of the zone entirely. I don't have any concrete proof of this, however the conjecture isn't completely baseless.

1: The phenomenon ALWAYS happens in the third class of the third year of that particular school, whether they change classrooms, names, or even entire school buildings, the extra will always appear in that class.
2: Likewise, the deaths occur only among those who are in that classroom, and their relatives, whether they are physically in the classroom or anywhere near it, or not at all, seems to be completely irrelevant.
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Old 2012-04-01, 13:20   Link #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Actually I assume that the phenomenon is centered around the town, and doesn't "die down" unless you get out of the zone entirely. I don't have any concrete proof of this, however the conjecture isn't completely baseless.

1: The phenomenon ALWAYS happens in the third class of the third year of that particular school, whether they change classrooms, names, or even entire school buildings, the extra will always appear in that class.
2: Likewise, the deaths occur only among those who are in that classroom, and their relatives, whether they are physically in the classroom or anywhere near it, or not at all, seems to be completely irrelevant.
There is actually proof to the contrary.

-Chibaki speaks of a former 3-3 inside a school bus far outside of town having crahed with the entire class having died.

- The Beach where person 3 died was far away from the town.

So one can conclude that the phenomenon wanders with the Another, which does btw make killing the Another obsolte as the only thing you'd have to do is bringing them far away enoguh to not cause trouble for their classmates/students
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-04-01 at 16:19.
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Old 2012-04-01, 13:47   Link #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
- The Beach where peerson 3 died was far away from the town.
I can't refute your other example (although I also don't remember Chiaki mentioning it), but for the beach scene the series indicated that it didn't occur outside of Yomiyama. They stated that the student's family reported that he had seemingly fallen down the stairs and hit something - presumably his head - before he left to join the group. Autopsy results indicated that the student had suffered intracranial bleeding, and that he was actually killed by that (or inadvertently lost conscious and drowned due to it), even before the boat hit him. So, even though his death occurred outside of Yomiyama, the event that triggered his death occurred in Yomiyama.
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Old 2012-04-01, 16:33   Link #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I can't refute your other example (although I also don't remember Chiaki mentioning it), but for the beach scene the series indicated that it didn't occur outside of Yomiyama. They stated that the student's family reported that he had seemingly fallen down the stairs and hit something - presumably his head - before he left to join the group. Autopsy results indicated that the student had suffered intracranial bleeding, and that he was actually killed by that (or inadvertently lost conscious and drowned due to it), even before the boat hit him. So, even though his death occurred outside of Yomiyama, the event that triggered his death occurred in Yomiyama.
I believe they said that to confuse people.
While the initial cause was indeed in the town, the progress was not.

Not leaving the village would have saved his life for sure because his parents would have taken him to a doctor. And Reiko would have done the same, if it wasn't for their dinner, as part of it was fish, which can easily make people puke if not entirely fresh(remember she brought some extra ingredients).

Everyone else having died did so instantly btw.

As for the first example: It is possible that he only said that in the mange and I confused it into the anime. Said scene however was a hint that the phenomenon can happen outside of town too though so the logical conclusion is that it wanders with its cause.
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Old 2012-04-01, 16:45   Link #307
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
So one can conclude that the phenomenon wanders with the Another, which does btw make killing the Another obsolete as the only thing you'd have to do is bringing them far away enough to not cause trouble for their classmates/students
I was thinking the same thing so wouldn't it have been easier for everyone who had been selected to be in class 3-3 to move out of town. I know some of them might not make it out but it's better then setting around waiting to die.
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Old 2012-04-02, 00:56   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I believe they said that to confuse people.
While the initial cause was indeed in the town, the progress was not.
Well, that's a matter of how we choose to interpret it, I suppose.

Quote:
Not leaving the village would have saved his life for sure because
The phenomenon probably would have found a way to get him regardless. The only person who survived a "phenomenon attack" that seemed to target them was the theatrical girl, and that was only because Kouichi intervened and pushed her out of the way of the large sheet of glass.

Quote:
Everyone else having died did so instantly btw.
Heart attack death wasn't instant. We don't know how Mei's cousin died, but considering that she was hospitalized, I think it's fair to say that it wasn't instant for her, either.

In my opinion, we never saw the phenomenon's killing at work outside of Yomiyama. However, there are some hints that it was able to affect those outside. For example, Kouichi's father seemed to experience memory alteration when prompted, even though he was on another continent. Also,
Spoiler for Beach episode and end of series:


None of it really matters, I suppose; everything that we knew about the mechanics of the phenomenon were based on observations and memories that were tampered with over the years. If the series had wanted to, it could have gone completely outside of the stated rules under the reasoning that people just hadn't observed it yet.
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Old 2012-04-02, 08:15   Link #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Spoiler for Beach episode and end of series:
Which is exactly my point.
The phenomenon's vicinity is not the town but radius X around the another.
So if the another is outside town people in the town are save.

As for kouichi's father:
This is not entirely correct.
As they were connected through the phone line, while Reiko was probably in the house too.
Another thing we need to consider is whether his father's memory has really beeen altered or whether he said the right thing without correcting himself while the last part was within Kouichi's brain.
I tend to argument for the latter as Kouichi has seemingly dismissed this important detail very fast.
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Old 2012-04-02, 09:05   Link #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The phenomenon's vicinity is not the town but radius X around the another.
I suppose it's fairly pointless to discuss it. We're not likely to ever find out the specifics behind it. More importantly, since the subject matter deals with the supernatural and isn't something that even pretends to mimic reality, the author could warp the "rules" which ever way he wants in the upcoming sequels.
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Old 2012-04-03, 03:24   Link #311
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Which is exactly my point.
The phenomenon's vicinity is not the town but radius X around the another.
So if the another is outside town people in the town are save.

As for kouichi's father:
This is not entirely correct.
As they were connected through the phone line, while Reiko was probably in the house too.
Another thing we need to consider is whether his father's memory has really beeen altered or whether he said the right thing without correcting himself while the last part was within Kouichi's brain.
I tend to argument for the latter as Kouichi has seemingly dismissed this important detail very fast.
While this is arguably plausible, you failed to disprove my theory. At all.

1: The nice boat kid died due to something that happened while still inside the town. He was already dead before the nice boat hit him.
2: The extra being able to move outside the radius means nothing if the dead extra and the phenomenon that kills people are two different things. If the extra appears in the class because that class invites death, there's no reason why the extra shouldn't be able to move around freely. People getting killed might be a response to the extra's appearance.
3: That bus you referred to that died while outside the radius. Actually it didn't die while outside the radius. The accident happened before reaching the town's border.
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Old 2012-04-03, 07:46   Link #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
While this is arguably plausible, you failed to disprove my theory. At all.

1: The nice boat kid died due to something that happened while still inside the town. He was already dead before the nice boat hit him.
2: The extra being able to move outside the radius means nothing if the dead extra and the phenomenon that kills people are two different things. If the extra appears in the class because that class invites death, there's no reason why the extra shouldn't be able to move around freely. People getting killed might be a response to the extra's appearance.
3: That bus you referred to that died while outside the radius. Actually it didn't die while outside the radius. The accident happened before reaching the town's border.
1st:
We can argue about this point for ages, I say If he would have stayed home they would his parents would have brought him to a doctor, which would have averted his death.
Another point is that he probably ate fish at the beach together with questionable ingredients gathered by the other students, so at least one person vomiting is not that implausible, that together with the fact that he was apparently car sick let Reiko put her guard down, otherwise she would have brought him to a doctor too for sure.
So him hitting his head was definitely causal but not the actual reason of his death, as hinted by Chibaki.


2nd:
The Calamity stopping as soon as the another is dead is actually a pretty good hint that it happens around the another.
And while Wikipedia is, without question, a questionable source it too states that it happens around the Another.
Other hints to this are that the another is, no matter how you look at it the cause for the whole misery. You can't cause something without having a spheres of influence.
I'm pretty sure the redshirt dying at the beach was meant to narrow the number of suspects down, and not just to show that
Spoiler:


3rd: Possible, its been a while already, note though that the effectiveness of the calamity decreases the farther you get away from town.
The calamity though still needs a core spheres, which could either be:
- School
- Another
- Center of town

Lets for the sake of the argument assume that it is the school, as the middle of the town would be highly illogical, then the calamity's effect would already be weaker that close to the towns boarder, probaly no longer able to kill a whole class (or 90% of it whatever it was)
If you use the Another as center though the calamity would bee strongest around them, being very well able to kill off an entire class at once.

This theory is btw sustained by the fact that all deaths having happened closer to the Another were a lot more lethal than he ones farther away. (The elevator was imho an extension through the phone. )

Really close to the Another:

- Death by umbrella
- Death by elevator
- death by suicide
- (death by) dismemberment
- all the school trip deaths

Within range but not really close:
- (elevator -> in () because its arguable)
- death by concussion
- death by heart attack
- death by kidney failure
- (death by suffocation) -> Brackets because the manga had being stabbed

One thing you can see from that though is that the deaths close the another are a lot bloodier than the ones not directly next to them.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-04-04 at 17:56.
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Old 2012-04-04, 07:32   Link #313
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1: Now you're just making stuff up. He didn't die due to the fish, he died due to the head trauma that wasn't treated. Librarian guy confirmed this. If he had stayed at home, he could have died just as easily since he did not go to the hospital as soon as it happened.
2: Actually this is the same as 1. If that death REALLY happened in order to narrow the suspects down, they would not immediately confirm that the guy's death still happened within the phenomenon's established borders, IE the town.
3: There is absolutely no reason to even assume that the effect is less the further you get from the so-called point of origin. I also never said that it originates in the center of town, that's just silly. No one even said that the area in which the phenomenon occurs is circular.
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Old 2012-04-04, 17:48   Link #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
1: Now you're just making stuff up. He didn't die due to the fish, he died due to the head trauma that wasn't treated. Librarian guy confirmed this. If he had stayed at home, he could have died just as easily since he did not go to the hospital as soon as it happened.
2: Actually this is the same as 1. If that death REALLY happened in order to narrow the suspects down, they would not immediately confirm that the guy's death still happened within the phenomenon's established borders, IE the town.
3: There is absolutely no reason to even assume that the effect is less the further you get from the so-called point of origin. I also never said that it originates in the center of town, that's just silly. No one even said that the area in which the phenomenon occurs is circular.
ad1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
1st:
Another point is that he probably ate fish at the beach together with questionable ingredients gathered by the other students, so at least one person vomiting is not that implausible, that together with the fact that he was apparently car sick [...]

I never said he died of fish poison, I said no one cared about him puking the whole time because part of their meal was fish and he was car sick..



ad2)
If my memory serves me right Chibaki said that him dying of head hitting is what a city police officer suspected - he just stated that it is likely not that it is the truth, thus he didnt confirm anything.
And especially another has a tendency of narrational deception.
Chibaki is btw not a doctor nor has he been there - so he can't officially confirm his death. Only those who where there can.

Ad3)
Re-read I excluded the center of the town myself, I just stated 3 points where the center could be. - And yes it is silly which is why I wrote that it is illogical:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Lets for the sake of the argument assume that it is the school, as the middle of the town would be highly illogical, then the calamity's effect would already be weaker that close to the towns boarder, probably no longer able to kill a whole class (or 90% of it whatever it was)

Circular is btw just a logical assumption, as well as th effects being weaker when while farther away.
It has however been stated that the calamity's effects get weaker the more you move away from the town, so yes there is a reason to think it gets weaker. And phenomenon or not what has a border inevitable has a center too.
So its safe to assume that the effects are also stronger near the point of origin than 3 kilometer away.
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Old 2012-04-05, 02:46   Link #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
ad1)



I never said he died of fish poison, I said no one cared about him puking the whole time because part of their meal was fish and he was car sick..



ad2)
If my memory serves me right Chibaki said that him dying of head hitting is what a city police officer suspected - he just stated that it is likely not that it is the truth, thus he didnt confirm anything.
And especially another has a tendency of narrational deception.
Chibaki is btw not a doctor nor has he been there - so he can't officially confirm his death. Only those who where there can.

Ad3)
Re-read I excluded the center of the town myself, I just stated 3 points where the center could be. - And yes it is silly which is why I wrote that it is illogical:



Circular is btw just a logical assumption, as well as th effects being weaker when while farther away.
It has however been stated that the calamity's effects get weaker the more you move away from the town, so yes there is a reason to think it gets weaker. And phenomenon or not what has a border inevitable has a center too.
So its safe to assume that the effects are also stronger near the point of origin than 3 kilometer away.
This has been stated where? This especially makes no sense considering the fact that a LOT of students died during an accident that happened at the town's border. As for your so-called "logical" assumption. There's nothing logical about an event that alters circumstances to kill members of a class, JUST in an attempt to compensate for the fact that something that shouldn't exist is present in that class. The effective area might also just be "up to the town's borders". And again, where has it been stated that the curse gets weaker as you get further away from the origin point? (especially considering the fact that the more gruesome deaths actually happened nowhere near the school)
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Old 2012-04-05, 07:06   Link #316
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
This has been stated where? This especially makes no sense considering the fact that a LOT of students died during an accident that happened at the town's border. As for your so-called "logical" assumption. There's nothing logical about an event that alters circumstances to kill members of a class, JUST in an attempt to compensate for the fact that something that shouldn't exist is present in that class. The effective area might also just be "up to the town's borders". And again, where has it been stated that the curse gets weaker as you get further away from the origin point? (especially considering the fact that the more gruesome deaths actually happened nowhere near the school)
Yes but all close to the Another - which brings us back to my theory about the another being the source.
And I can't tell you the exact episode where it has been stated that the curse weakens the further you get away - it should be an early episode where they were still explaining the phenomenon though. Maybe I'm confusing Manga information in here , possible - that doesn't change the fact that it has been said though.

About logic:
Yes it does apply here for several reasons:
- Its a mystery
- The phenomenon is always coherent, therefore tries to make things so that no one would question them from a logical point of view. for example
Spoiler for Another:

- You need logic to solve it and yes you can actually solve this mystery
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Old 2012-04-05, 09:26   Link #317
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Just so we're clear here, I'm not trying to prove that the effect -can't possibly be centered around the extra-. I'm trying to say that there is no proof that my theory is incorrect.

Your theory goes from the assumption that the extra is the cause of the phenomenon, whereas my stance is that the phenomenon and the extra don't share a causal relationship. Either one has some credit. The former does raise some issues with me, personally, though.


Also, elevator death happened nowhere near the extra, and neither did bulldozer death.
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Old 2012-04-06, 16:16   Link #318
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Just so we're clear here, I'm not trying to prove that the effect -can't possibly be centered around the extra-. I'm trying to say that there is no proof that my theory is incorrect.

Your theory goes from the assumption that the extra is the cause of the phenomenon, whereas my stance is that the phenomenon and the extra don't share a causal relationship. Either one has some credit. The former does raise some issues with me, personally, though.


Also, elevator death happened nowhere near the extra, and neither did bulldozer death.
I understood that, don't worry.

About the Bulldozer death:
Yeah the only cruesome death where you know who was nowhere to be seen.

The elevator however had a phone connection, lke an expanded area though the line.
We also don't know how far the Mikami residence is away from the Ogura's
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