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Old 2012-03-31, 22:02   Link #841
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
To put it simply, if Espers get their energy from nowhere, why does Mikoto get tired from overusing her powers?
From mental effort? that can be quite tiresome.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:06   Link #842
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
From mental effort? that can be quite tiresome.
Mental effort doesn't make you out of breath and you feel weak, those are from physical strain on the body.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:28   Link #843
leukrota
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Then from channeling the energy... Why is it so hard to think she creates the energy out of nowhere? Kakine creates matter out of nowhere, and Accelerator completely violates the conservation of momentum, which is as fundamental as the conservation of energy.

Anyway, I can't recall it, where is it that she got tired form using her power?
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:39   Link #844
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i'm always think that espers using energy from their body or convert energy from their surrounding to thing like electricity or fire.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:43   Link #845
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Then from channeling the energy... Why is it so hard to think she creates the energy out of nowhere? Kakine creates matter out of nowhere, and Accelerator completely violates the conservation of momentum, which is as fundamental as the conservation of energy.
Because there is a better explanation- a human body is stock full of energy from the chemicals we consume from food (among other things). Rather just say the energy comes from nowhere, wouldn't it be better to say an Esper has found a way to convert the energy produced normally in a human body to create a supernatural effect?

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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Anyway, I can't recall it, where is it that she got tired form using her power?
Railgun, after the fight with Kiyama, she was completely exhausted that she collapsed on the spot.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:56   Link #846
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Railgun, after the fight with Kiyama, she was completely exhausted that she collapsed on the spot.
Oh, right, I remember now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Because there is a better explanation- a human body is stock full of energy from the chemicals we consume from food (among other things). Rather just say the energy comes from nowhere, wouldn't it be better to say an Esper has found a way to convert the energy produced normally in a human body to create a supernatural effect?
Well, I guess that is cooler... Actually I don't know why am I arguing this, it's all pseudoscience. There is technically not enough energy in a human body (unless you break down atoms) to create the voltage and current necessaries to fry stuff like that fetus you're referring to. But ultimately that doesn't matter... like I said, it's pseudoscience what's really used here, otherwise there would be no espers at all.
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Old 2012-03-31, 22:57   Link #847
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I think the reason why she got out of energy is because the mental stress is too much for her to handle to keep doing the calculations needed to use her abilities.


Something that persons like Kakine and Accelerator do as normal as breathing aka they don't do it conciously.
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:01   Link #848
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
I think the reason why she got out of energy is because the mental stress is too much for her to handle to keep doing the calculations needed to use her abilities.
If she had mental stress, then where's the headache? Not to mention there was never any indication that her powers were calculation intensive.

Look at that scene and the one in the spar with Gunha, she wasn't exactly clutching her head now was she?


Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Well, I guess that is cooler... Actually I don't know why am I arguing this, it's all pseudoscience. There is technically not enough energy in a human body (unless you break down atoms) to create the voltage and current necessaries to fry stuff like that fetus you're referring to. But ultimately that doesn't matter... like I said, it's pseudoscience what's really used here, otherwise there would be no espers at all.

Well that's why Level 5s are such sort after research materials, to find out how they can produce such vast quantities of power. Remember the pirate radio channel in the Vending machine SS?


Quote:

Do you know about the Level 5 espers? My, my, this isn't some gaming production thing; they're the people who stand at the top of the six-tier hiearchy amongst our 2.3 million residents! The pyramid in the vast desert of Level 0s!

So, are the Level 5s standing at the pinnacle of the pyramid? That's just a wrong conclusion that you made. Those who stand at the pinnacle of the pyramid are Level 3s! The birds who are gracefully flying through the sky are Level 4s, and though they fly through the air freely most of the time, there are situations where they fall into a sandstorm when wind blows. Far above this chaotic situation that can't be seen, located high up in the sky, are the Level 5s.

"Accelerator", "Dark Matter", "Railgun", "Meltdowner", "Mental Out", "Eh, who's that Number Six...? Well, forget about it", "Hm, that Number Seven who's said to be really powerful"... Such a group of people are like the stars in the Big Dipper: so high above that we can't reach them.


...Though I heard before that if you could convert all the mass in a human body to energy, it would be equal or more powerful than a nuclear bomb... Or something like that.
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:22   Link #849
Kimidori
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
...Though I heard before that if you could convert all the mass in a human body to energy, it would be equal or more powerful than a nuclear bomb... Or something like that.
is it have something to do with E=MC^2?
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Old 2012-03-31, 23:38   Link #850
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
is it have something to do with E=MC^2?
On a basic level that's probably it
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Old 2012-04-01, 01:23   Link #851
ellifeedn
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Geez, you guys study this series like it was the Bible or something (no pun intended).
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Old 2012-04-01, 18:25   Link #852
Chaos2Frozen
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Now now, flattery will get you nowhere...
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Old 2012-04-02, 01:57   Link #853
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My take of it is basically all the energy comes from the Personal Reality that AC espers give off. You basically replace reality with your own, and take affect the world that way. Hence, Kakine with his Dark Matter wings that appear out of 'nowhere' and AIM burst gaining a physical body despite being just made of energy (AIM field).
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Old 2012-04-03, 15:55   Link #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

...Though I heard before that if you could convert all the mass in a human body to energy, it would be equal or more powerful than a nuclear bomb... Or something like that.
Actually there is enough energy bound up into atoms that if you released the energy of something the size of a green pea, it would be enough energy to utterly destroy everything on earth for at least a thousand miles. One way of releasing an atoms energy like that is via anti-matter reactions which is the only method (currently known) in the universe to yield nearly perfect mass to energy conversion.


A human body probably has enough bound up energy that in theory could be enough to take out the entire planet and fry half the nearby planets with enough gamma radiation to kill all living organisms for millions of miles out. If the energy was focused like the gamma ray bursts from imploding/colliding neutron stars or from black hole formations then it could fry an entire planet even if it was hundreds of light-years away from the source. The energy we get from food and from other processes in our body involves only energy derived from chemical reactions and that only represents a very tiny fraction of the energy we actually contain.


Though since an anti-matter explosion has never been witnessed much less ever occured on the surface of Earth, scientists can only calculate and theorize on it based on the much much smaller scale versions of it that they conduct in places like atom smashers that involves only a few atoms instead of the trillions upon trillions of them bound up in macro sized objects.

If scientists ever find a way to create enough anti-matter (which would most likely be hydrogen atoms or helium at the most) to even make something the size or equivalent of a grain of sand, god help us all. :P

As a matter of fact that sequal movie to the De Vinci code movie shows the effect of what a grain of sand's worth of anti matter does. Now scale that up to a green pea or a human body. You shouldn't even be comparing it to nuclear bombs at that point as they would seem like tiny fire crackers in comparison. :P

If they really wanted to quickly explain away where espers get the energy to propagate their powers, they could easily just say they convert a portion of the food they eat to anti-matter and derive energy from it. No doubt 90% of everything the Espers did would stay within the laws of conservation at that point since it would be more then enough to power most if not all the things we've seen thus far that Espers have done.

Last edited by Apache Thunder; 2012-04-03 at 16:10.
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Old 2012-04-03, 17:10   Link #855
desrtsku
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^ sorry to say this but ... anti-matter or not, if we use the law of conservation, Kakine would only be able to create 1kg of Dark Matter with 1kg of fat ... and it didn't seem like he got thinner nor used any FMA tricks to transmute something around him >.> ... also let me remind you that electron has mass, considering Miko-chin's body resistance is 1ohm, she needs to move around 0.056856301kg of electrons per second to get a 1billion volt result ; not mentioning the potential difference her body should have to be able to do that, she'd pretty much alter the normal functioning of half of academy city's electronic devices just by sitting in the middle of the town (if we're going to the non-reality breaking theory then let's get serious ). And what about Aim Burst's mass? The ice blocs Aim burst created out of thin air?

Quote:
My take of it is basically all the energy comes from the Personal Reality that AC espers give off. You basically replace reality with your own, and take affect the world that way. Hence, Kakine with his Dark Matter wings that appear out of 'nowhere' and AIM burst gaining a physical body despite being just made of energy (AIM field).
interesting *takes notes*, I think that theory can be taken as a solid argument to explain and defend the "non-conservation of energy" ... in a certain way. What's left is this I think :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
To put it simply, if Espers get their energy from nowhere, why does Mikoto get tired from overusing her powers.
Since I really can't picture a slender guys like Kakine or Miko-chin losing even more fat after using their powers (and since Flere's post gave me some inspiration), I 'll just try to pull a theory out of nowhere just praying it would make sense.

Someone already mentioned somewhere something about mental stress and then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If she had mental stress, then where's the headache? Not to mention there was never any indication that her powers were calculation intensive.

Look at that scene and the one in the spar with Gunha, she wasn't exactly clutching her head now was she?
If we're talking about mental stress, headache is effectively a very recurrent sign ... but I'm not really going to argue on that since my point is a bit different.

Just a little introduction :
Our body regularly generates a small amount of adrenaline to stimulates certain parts of our organisms. But when we're under some situation of stress, that amount increases and obviously stimulate the entire organism generally resulting in the :
-dilatation of the air passages (allow the body to get more oxygen into the lungs quickly)
-contraction of the blood vessels, muscles and lungs
-fast increase of the heart rate
-huge consumption of the body's reserve of energy (especially recently absorbed glucose, but can even consume the protein reserve under special cases)
-...


Obviously such strains on the body can generate a lot of side effects. Generally :
-fatigue or exhaustion : since that process consumes a lot of energy
-feeling out of breath during some sudden but serious case
-nausea, vomiting and/or fainting during extreme cases of adrenaline outburst
-insomnia, muscles pain, backaches, headaches, etc ... especially/mostly in the long run
-Blood flooding from your nose when you overexert your brain, due to the rupture of certain thin capillaries in that region thank to the high blood pressure ... darn summer wars is such a good movie

Many factors can generate like many various mental strains like : being scared, performing annoying mental tasks, burst of anger, ... ; Or physical works ; Or some notable burden placed on any of the 5 senses (powerful light, loud noise, Mexican super chili sauce, pain etc) ...
Yes I'd even say you can feel exhausted, tired, out of breath and even faint just by seeing Samara coming out of your TV for real ... without doing yourself a huge physical task.
In Miko-chin's case, we have various cases of her being exhausted or out of breath after overusing her powers : most of the times she fought with Touma and another random "who's this guy/girl/woman?", Aim Burst, [COLOR="Purple"]and there's also the case when she tried not to overuse her power during the sister arc.

They're not that difficult to interpret :
1- That girl is a hotblooded tomboy and that's one of the many reasons why I fell in love with her, she's generally not the kind of person who defeats an opponent calmly ... no ... she shouts all the way, run all around the field like a crazy monkey, and even with her arsenal of electric attacks she doesn't mind punching her opponents directly if she felt like it. Of course, those statement are just to prove that she's the kind to have an easy burst of adrenaline, in addition to that her ability is the kind to generate noises and lights all over the place ... and it's humanly impossible to totally get used to that (if it was, then noises and lights wouldn't have been added in the major stress factor) ... so it's pretty normal is she gets tired after some serious encounters. Just to illustrate it even more even Touma just by stopping his lightning in vol 12, of course it wasn't because IB consumes energy but because he get the sh*t scared out of him.

2- that's pretty much the same when she fought against Aim Burst.
1 she was already pretty worn out
2 it's true that her power doesn't theoretically requires a huge level of calculation ... but even so, it'll get more difficult when you increase the value : X^2 might be easy or difficult depending of the value of X like from 10 to 0.97864billion volts (of course Accel's reflect is a special case since it uses the easiest to perform mathematical operation that ever existed) ... and like I said mental effort too provokes a huge release of adrenaline.
3 Headache : unless she tries to surpass her mental limits, I doubt she's get a migraine from using her powers (since it's not really on the same level of difficulty as Awaki's move point or Accel's control). But the possibility of getting exhausted after performing an easy mental task is still possible when it involves a lot of work (try to perform an addition with two numbers of 500 digits, I'm sure your head won't hurt but you'll surely fall asleep halfway) ... well, now we can say she indirectly burned a lot of glucose when she fire those enormous lightning bolts. The same goes with the adrenaline factor, it can provoke headache but not necessarily (if it was the case, all the guys in the X-game would have ice stuck on their head) ... though there are cases when it's unavoidable.

3-I think there's no need for any explanation for the sister arc.
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Old 2012-04-03, 17:32   Link #856
Chaos2Frozen
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Since your post is too long and it's way too early to be cracking my head, I'll narrow it down to this.

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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
^ sorry to say this but ... anti-matter or not, if we use the law of conservation, Kakine would only be able to create 1kg of Dark Matter with 1kg of fat ... and it didn't seem like he got thinner nor used any FMA tricks to transmute something around him >.>
How do you know the density/mass/volume/etc of Dark Matter is the same as fats? For all we know Kakine used only 10g of body mass to create that 1000g of Dark Matter, and that 1000g of Dark Matter could fill a bath-tub or something.
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Old 2012-04-04, 00:43   Link #857
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why are you even applying the law of conservation of mass to dark matter?

i mean the laws of physics don't even apply to it.
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Old 2012-04-04, 01:23   Link #858
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One possible way is using real dark matter and converting it into Dark Matter. What we know about dark matter is still restricted, and as such what we know as laws of physics might not apply to them.
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Old 2012-04-04, 01:32   Link #859
desrtsku
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^ I was trying to make a demonstration by the absurd but if you say that dark matter is the only one who can break the law on conservation (since it's an already proven law breaker) then ... *look bellow*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
How do you know the density/mass/volume/etc of Dark Matter is the same as fats? For all we know Kakine used only 10g of body mass to create that 1000g of Dark Matter, and that 1000g of Dark Matter could fill a bath-tub or something.
Then, you're assuming that Dark Matter is the only one who can break the law of conservation? well Dark matter is just a broken materialization form of AIM field if I'm not wrong, and every espers needs AIM to alter the reality thus the non-conservation theory should apply to every espers as well. Also where the hell would he get fat if only his brain is left of what was his former body? Transmuting the energy AC gave him to power his brain?
Also as far as I know AIM doesn't have mass, right? And there's still the case of AIM burst, where does its mass come from if AIM field doesn't really have mass? ... of course you can just say that it comes from the fat of 10,000 espers (and therefore AIM has a mass too but you can't easily estimate it like the air we breathe) but then if you use that theory, it means espers lose fat every second by emitting a certain amount of AIM ... also means that guys like the Gemstones are doomed to be skinny. In addition to that, would you say that a potential Level 5 ice user can't create ice blocks of the size of Aim Burst's because he/she doesn't have enough fat? (even though he/she's obviously more powerful than it)
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Old 2012-04-04, 02:39   Link #860
Chaos2Frozen
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I want to apology for one thing, it seems i unintentionally made a mistake i my previous statement that leads to this misunderstading.

What i meant is that how do u know human fats has the same density as Dark matter? Thats is to say, how do u know a hand full of fats doesnt become a bathtub full of dark matter even if they are the same mass or weight or whatever?

Secondly, AIM are unconcious release of energy, a normal human does this all thevtime except that is call body heat among other things, theres no need to make it anymore complicated since it was also mention that AIM as so weak you need special machines to detect them, that doesnt sound like something that would require alot of juice to maintain.

As for Kakine still creating dark matter, they are bound to place him in a life support jar right? Not too hard to imagine them adding various fluids and biochemicals to it...

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-04-04 at 02:51.
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